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The Peace Of God That Passes All Understanding
- Thread starter Mark Osgatharp
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Romans 14:19 (KJV1873):
Let us therefore follow after the things
which make for peace, and things wherewith
one may edify another.
Let us therefore follow after the things
which make for peace, and things wherewith
one may edify another.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
Lorelei,
You are absolute correct in your contentions. Don't let them intimidate you one bit.
A few weeks ago I told my 19 year old son that sometimes people get in depression and just can't do anything about it. I got to thinking about it and realized I had just told him that the Bible really didn't mean what it said.
I went back and apologized to him and explained that it only SEEMS sometimes that nothing can be done for depression because we are unwilling to change our minds and change our actions relative to the will of God.
Anyone I ever knew who was depressed - MYSELF INCLUDED - had major sin in his life as obvious as a wart on the end of your nose. When such is the case we cannot expect God to give us the peace of God that passes all understanding.
"The way of the transgressor is hard."
Furthermore, let me say that I think this discussion goes a lot deeper than we may realize. I think it goes to the very heart of liberalism and infidelity.
I think it speaks to the fact that millions have rejected the Scriptures because they KNOW the Scriptures teach that God makes man's life miserable when man's life is not acceptable to him. In other words, they have not only rejected the Scriptures, they have rejected God. Man is just not going to have a God who punishes him for his sin.
I think this discussion speaks to the fact that the Holy Spirit has racked millions of people with mental anguish and pain in an effort to induce repentance and they have, in response, turned to drugs (whether legal or illegal), psycologists (the modern day counterpart of the false prophets), and every sort of self-justification imaginable to escape the guilt.
The Holy Spirit is said to be our COMFORTER and He comforts us ONLY when we are submissive to His leadership in the TRUTH. See John 14.
Where that equation allows for "chemical imbalance" and "behavioral health" I am at a loss to comprehend.
Mark Osgatharp
You are absolute correct in your contentions. Don't let them intimidate you one bit.
A few weeks ago I told my 19 year old son that sometimes people get in depression and just can't do anything about it. I got to thinking about it and realized I had just told him that the Bible really didn't mean what it said.
I went back and apologized to him and explained that it only SEEMS sometimes that nothing can be done for depression because we are unwilling to change our minds and change our actions relative to the will of God.
Anyone I ever knew who was depressed - MYSELF INCLUDED - had major sin in his life as obvious as a wart on the end of your nose. When such is the case we cannot expect God to give us the peace of God that passes all understanding.
"The way of the transgressor is hard."
Furthermore, let me say that I think this discussion goes a lot deeper than we may realize. I think it goes to the very heart of liberalism and infidelity.
I think it speaks to the fact that millions have rejected the Scriptures because they KNOW the Scriptures teach that God makes man's life miserable when man's life is not acceptable to him. In other words, they have not only rejected the Scriptures, they have rejected God. Man is just not going to have a God who punishes him for his sin.
I think this discussion speaks to the fact that the Holy Spirit has racked millions of people with mental anguish and pain in an effort to induce repentance and they have, in response, turned to drugs (whether legal or illegal), psycologists (the modern day counterpart of the false prophets), and every sort of self-justification imaginable to escape the guilt.
The Holy Spirit is said to be our COMFORTER and He comforts us ONLY when we are submissive to His leadership in the TRUTH. See John 14.
Where that equation allows for "chemical imbalance" and "behavioral health" I am at a loss to comprehend.
Mark Osgatharp
If our bodies are not producing the right chemicals in proper balance, we sometimes need to add medications to restore order. Taking medical preparations is NOT a defeat of faith or willpower. Medication is one of several God-given methods for coping with chemical imbalance. If a medicine corrects a genetic chemical imbalance and helps you become a happier, more relaxed, more effective servant of God, NOT taking it would be a sin and a real shame. Pride makes us either want to do everything in our own strength or do nothing at all. Humility enables us to ask for the help of God, friends, Christian counselors, and sometimes even correctional medications.
When we are sick, we should pray; we should seek help from competent doctors; and we should wholeheartedly rest in the perfect will of God. In illness as in everything else, the Christian should keep a biblical perspective and seek to glorify God. God heals in His own time, by His own means, for His own glory, and according to His own sovereign will and pleasure. Would we have it any other way?
In His love,
Grace
When we are sick, we should pray; we should seek help from competent doctors; and we should wholeheartedly rest in the perfect will of God. In illness as in everything else, the Christian should keep a biblical perspective and seek to glorify God. God heals in His own time, by His own means, for His own glory, and according to His own sovereign will and pleasure. Would we have it any other way?
In His love,
Grace
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
The book of Proverbs says,
"give wine to those that be of heavey hearts."
Of those who are saying that depression is a medical problem, how many would be willing to prescribe alcohol as a medicine?
Mark Osgatharp
"give wine to those that be of heavey hearts."
Of those who are saying that depression is a medical problem, how many would be willing to prescribe alcohol as a medicine?
Mark Osgatharp
You are missing the point. IF you are not producing the proper amount of chemicals it is because of the depression. Cure the depression, the chemicals bounce back (if they were out of place to begin with).
If medication is the cure all, then what about all the people for last 6,000 years before medication was an option? Was God's promise of this peace that passes all understanding only for today? Remember, this "chemical imbalance" theory is not very old.
David had been depressed, look where he found His hope and rest. He found it in ONE place and ONE place only.
Everyone keeps saying "Well God gives us doctors." I don't read that, I read that God gives us "peace". Is this truth or not? If it is true, how did anyone in the past find this peace without "God giving them doctors?"
~Lorelei
CompassionFlower
New Member
Dear Lorelei:
True to your question. The bible answers, God's word is our answer, not man's. Your question on what did people do long ago about depression, has been one that I have also asked. Our modern science does not hold all the answers in life. Many times things have been proven wrong. A thought for those who take medication for depression, how long would you be willing to take this medication, and feel totally confident that your body or mind (the chemical part) would not be affected by this medication?
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of Him and He Himself will make your paths straight.
Thinking, Pam
True to your question. The bible answers, God's word is our answer, not man's. Your question on what did people do long ago about depression, has been one that I have also asked. Our modern science does not hold all the answers in life. Many times things have been proven wrong. A thought for those who take medication for depression, how long would you be willing to take this medication, and feel totally confident that your body or mind (the chemical part) would not be affected by this medication?
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of Him and He Himself will make your paths straight.
Thinking, Pam
timothy 1769
New Member
i am somewhat skeptical if this explains ALL depression, but everyting mark says has been bourne out in my own experience. before i was saved i was in a low level depressed state almost all of the time, but ever since the few times i've felt depressed it's all been connected with unrepented sin.
In light of the above quotation, what controlled studies did you participate in to come to your conclusion? Let's keep in mind that your opinions are just that....YOUR opinions. There are many Christian professionals who are in the medical field who disagree with you.
You say:
First of all, I never said that "medicine was the cure all." What I did say was, "When we are sick, we should pray; we should seek help from competent doctors; and we should wholeheartedly rest in the perfect will of God. In illness as in everything else, the Christian should keep a biblical perspective and seek to glorify God. God heals in His own time, by His own means, for His own glory, and according to His own sovereign will and pleasure. Would we have it any other way?" Now, what problems do you have with that statement?
You also say,
There have been many advances in medicine since biblical times. There are numerous physical ailments that have depression as one of it's symptoms. Should we with hold medication because they didn't have it 6000 years ago? And what about people with other physical ailments....do we withhold meds from those people too because they didn't have them 6000 years ago either....or is it just for those suffering from depression?
You Say
I dont' think anyone here has said other wise....Our hope is in the Lord.
In Matthew 9:12 Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a physician but those who are ill." Granted, Jesus was speaking of the problem of sin, but he was using an analogy that everyone understood. Sick people need a doctor. By those words, our Lord affirmed that medical treatment is consistent with the will of God.
In His love,
Grace
Once again a topic og judgement against others by somoene who has no idea what they are talking about. On the last topic like this one I gave a whole lot of medical research that depression can be and is casued by a number of things, it is an illness. The problem is that people trust thewir doctor to diagnos and perscribe medicines for high cholestrol, diabetes, cancer, but then turn around and tell the same medical science that gives them the right kinds of drugs to use that they don't know what they are talking baout when it comes to mental illness. Why? Why do you go to a doctora dn take your childern to a doctor you say is incompetant?
Kate,
Why do charges of "ignorant judgment" fly everytime someone disagrees with you?? Have you stopped to consider that maybe you are the one who is being judgmental here?? It sounds like it to me.
Perhaps this would be a good time to sit back and consider what Scripture actually says and what is actually being said here.
What is common in most of these discussions (particularly the last 3 or 4 on here) is the total lack of Scripture and particularly Scripture's discussion of the effect of sin on the life. Perhaps rather than calling others ignorant judges we should evaluate what Scripture says and talk about that publicly.
Why do charges of "ignorant judgment" fly everytime someone disagrees with you?? Have you stopped to consider that maybe you are the one who is being judgmental here?? It sounds like it to me.
Perhaps this would be a good time to sit back and consider what Scripture actually says and what is actually being said here.
What is common in most of these discussions (particularly the last 3 or 4 on here) is the total lack of Scripture and particularly Scripture's discussion of the effect of sin on the life. Perhaps rather than calling others ignorant judges we should evaluate what Scripture says and talk about that publicly.
Hi Katie,
Thanks for your post. I'd like to take a stab at answering one of your "whys."
The answer is because there is still a stigma attached to any form of mental illness. Many ill informed people still equate it with being demon possessed, lacking faith and trust, etc. Sad isn't it?
Praise God, I am not an only child. I have a Friend, closer than a brother, who understands the path I walk because He has walked it too (Heb.4:14-16) His heart beats with mine. His heart breaks with mine. His hands reach out, through their own pain, to touch my aching soul and let me know that someday it will all become clear...but for now to keep on walking, like He did and like others have before me. He is the God who walks alongside...even when others walk away.
For whatever reason God has chosen to allow me to pass through this refining process. And when God is through refining me I will be able to say with Job, "When he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." (Job 23:10)
Through the resurrection of Jesus, I see God's power to make things right in the end. So, even if today is turbulent and filled with tribulation, through Him I have a living hope.
In His love,
Grace
Thanks for your post. I'd like to take a stab at answering one of your "whys."
The answer is because there is still a stigma attached to any form of mental illness. Many ill informed people still equate it with being demon possessed, lacking faith and trust, etc. Sad isn't it?
Praise God, I am not an only child. I have a Friend, closer than a brother, who understands the path I walk because He has walked it too (Heb.4:14-16) His heart beats with mine. His heart breaks with mine. His hands reach out, through their own pain, to touch my aching soul and let me know that someday it will all become clear...but for now to keep on walking, like He did and like others have before me. He is the God who walks alongside...even when others walk away.
For whatever reason God has chosen to allow me to pass through this refining process. And when God is through refining me I will be able to say with Job, "When he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." (Job 23:10)
Through the resurrection of Jesus, I see God's power to make things right in the end. So, even if today is turbulent and filled with tribulation, through Him I have a living hope.
In His love,
Grace
You are missing the point. IF you are not producing the proper amount of chemicals it is because of the depression. Cure the depression, the chemicals bounce back (if they were out of place to begin with).
If medication is the cure all, then what about all the people for last 6,000 years before medication was an option? Was God's promise of this peace that passes all understanding only for today? Remember, this "chemical imbalance" theory is not very old.
David had been depressed, look where he found His hope and rest. He found it in ONE place and ONE place only.
Everyone keeps saying "Well God gives us doctors." I don't read that, I read that God gives us "peace". Is this truth or not? If it is true, how did anyone in the past find this peace without "God giving them doctors?"
~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]Fact is there is medical evidence to support that statement of bygrace's, you have no medical evidence to support your medical opinions on a medical subject. If you do not believe medical science then I challenge you to stop going to a doctor and taking your children to the doctor. Put your health and your children's health where your mouth is. Either medical sceience knows about the functioning of the humna body or they do not. Which is it?
Larry, I challenage you to go read everything I wrote on the exact same thread like this one that you said you didn't read all of it. I gave medical evidence. So far no one has been able to refute that. Either you believe medical science or you do not. If not, then stop going to the doctor. Every illness is casued by sin, so just repent and you will get better. So will your children, if they only repent.
Of coure then you put God ina box and tell Him to opperate your way, and take away His opitions. You people seem to be saying God never uses medicine to heal someone. You seem to think we are saying a pill is all anyone needs. And not one person has said that.
Dear People,
Of course depression can be chemically/hormonally caused! Lorelei, you are a mother. Did you have no touch of post-natal depression? That was a hormonal imbalance which generally straightens itself out in a few days, but not always.
We live in a time of chemically treated foods, artificial substances that we wear, use, live in. We also live far enough down the line from creation that our bodies are not at all as originally created. Allergies abound. Reactions are rampant.
Try the exhaustion that comes from an allergy all summer or all the time or whatever. Try a reaction to something unknown that sends your system into a tailspin.
Yes, depression can be caused by self-focus and one's lack of faith, but it can also be caused by innumerable other things! Get a grip, folks!
And there is a feed-back loop between the chemical imbalance that can be caused by depression and the depression that can be caused by chemical imbalance. The best way to break that loop is to think on the things that are good and lovely and praiseworthy. It is at these times praise itself can feel like a real sacrifice.
And, sometimes, at least for a short time, there are medications that really can help break the loop, too.
Please, please don't judge folks who are dealing with depression. You have no idea what may be causing it, and to accuse anyone of lack of faith or simply some kind of bad attitude is really not a good thing. It can easily be judgment from ignorance.
Of course depression can be chemically/hormonally caused! Lorelei, you are a mother. Did you have no touch of post-natal depression? That was a hormonal imbalance which generally straightens itself out in a few days, but not always.
We live in a time of chemically treated foods, artificial substances that we wear, use, live in. We also live far enough down the line from creation that our bodies are not at all as originally created. Allergies abound. Reactions are rampant.
Try the exhaustion that comes from an allergy all summer or all the time or whatever. Try a reaction to something unknown that sends your system into a tailspin.
Yes, depression can be caused by self-focus and one's lack of faith, but it can also be caused by innumerable other things! Get a grip, folks!
And there is a feed-back loop between the chemical imbalance that can be caused by depression and the depression that can be caused by chemical imbalance. The best way to break that loop is to think on the things that are good and lovely and praiseworthy. It is at these times praise itself can feel like a real sacrifice.
And, sometimes, at least for a short time, there are medications that really can help break the loop, too.
Please, please don't judge folks who are dealing with depression. You have no idea what may be causing it, and to accuse anyone of lack of faith or simply some kind of bad attitude is really not a good thing. It can easily be judgment from ignorance.
Either the topic is depression, or sins effect ont he life. Which is it. Illness or sin? Perphaps it is that everyone who is sick is in sin and just needs to repent. You know faith healers, Benny Hinn type of stuff.
I beleive God can and does heal, but I also believe He does it both miracouly and with medicnes. Or do you think He can't heal with medicines, maybe He isn't powerful enought to heal with medicines and it's by chance medicines actually help people.
You can't have it both ways.
Prephaps you'd like to show where I said anyone was ignorant. Either that or stop falsely accusing me. Your supose to be a pastor, but you issue false accusations.
Maybe if you'd read everything O wrote before you started accusing me you'd find I used a lot of scripture. Scripture of peoples who were depressed who never once did God belittle them like poeple on here do, nor did He give instructions for anyone else to belittle them, or judge them. Seems you all want to use a lot of scritpute without looking at all of it. Show me where God once belittled anyone sick from anything in the bible.
You know, most of you know absoultly nothing about me, yet you feel you can tell me I have no faith. Yet I and God know better. Without faith I could not have mad eit this far with whats been going on. God's faithfulness to stand with me, walk beside me, and pick me up and carry me when I am not strong enough. God saw me through, and He still does everyday. I have to depend on Him, becasue I know I can not survive without Him. How many times I have been quick to jump into prayer,to run to God, knowing I am not strong enough to take it anymore, it's His turn, to yell God help me today, I am at the end of my rope and there is nothing left of me, be my strength. I have sought God out in tears and confusion over life, and He has always mey me there. I have seen God at work in my life in my families life, I ahve learned that He is at work even when we don't see Him, nothing ever happens for no reason, He has a plan and a purpose. Meaning He is the only one in control. If anyone ever gets well, is healed, recovers from any illness, it is God and only God, either through a miracle, or through the miracle of medicine, it is only God, to limit Him and tell Him He can not use medicine is so little, and in and of itself is a lack of faith. My God is great and powerful,and He can do anything, any way He chooses. So don't confine Him to your own idea of what He should be.
Maverick
Member
Was Hezekiah healed by a miracle or a fig paister or both? God can use eiher or both. True, many people are depressed by willful sin or demonic oppression. If the meds just replace a deficiency then by all means use them. If they just mask the symptoms but do not take care of the source then you have a problem. If the problem is spiritual no medicine will heal it. I suggest Competent To Counsel by Jay Adams for a general concept of counseling and seeing how much mental "illess" is not always illness, but guilt. I do not agree with his TULIP theology, but I believe the counseling protocols to be sound.