The Peace Of God That Passes All Understanding

[ByGrace]

Lorelei says:

I ask again, can we stick to discussing the topics and stop judging the motives of other people?

I merely quoted the Bible as you have done. If you are convicted that's the Holy Spirit.

"Judging the motives of other people?" Then, pray tell, why are you judging those who would disagree with your interpretation of the Scriptures? Why do you condemn them for lack of faith, not speaking the "truth," etc., etc...All based on your opinion? Why do you not care that you may be hurting numerous people?

Blessings,
GRace

 

[Lorelei]

Thankful,

They were merely examples. Can you tell me what emotions the Bible says we are not responsible for?

In the clinical definition of depression we see these words. Then we see the Bible address them.

hopelessness

Rom 5:1-5
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
NIV

We have peace with God and our suffering should produce hope not hopelessness.

extreme sadness

Eccl 2:26
26 To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
NIV

God gives you hapiness, not extreme sadness.

helplessness

Ps 46:1
God is our refuge and strength,
an ever-present help in trouble.
NIV

We are never helpless, for God IS our help.

I ask again, where does the Bible say we are not responsible for "feeling" depressed?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Grace,

Your quote had nothing to do with depression, it had to do with judging my motives. Although I am flattered that you find me worthy of disucssion, I would prefer to discuss the Word of God. If you would like to start a thread on judging others and what the Bible really has to say on that issue, then please do so. However, I will not get into an argument with you, nor will I get side tracked into having to defend my right to believe what I believe the Bible teaches. People may have been offended by what I said, but unlike your posts, my posts were directed at depression (an issue), not a person. I named no names nor accused any one person here of anything specific.

This is a discussion board, and you must realize that all sides of an issue are allowed to speak, whether you agree with them or not.

~Lorelei

 

[Thankful]

Do you really think anti-drepressants and psychology were around when the Bible was written? Do you honestly believe that they thought depression was caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain? Did they even know how the brain worked?

I think you have answered your own question. Of course, they were not around, but they are now.

I ask again, where does the Bible say we are not responsible for "feeling" depressed?

I think it has been pointed out several times that clinical depression and other disorders are not a feeling.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Thankful:
I think you have answered your own question. Of course, they were not around, but they are now.

You are taking my quote out of context. They wanted Biblical evidence that people in the Bible did not go to doctors to cure depression. I am wondering why someone would think they would when the theory of clinical depression is new to science and medicince.

Originally posted by Thankful:
I think it has been pointed out several times that clinical depression and other disorders are not a feeling.

I disagree, I do not believe it has been proven.

~Lorelei

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Thankful:
When did this thread take a turn from discussing depression and the treatment there of and to anxiety or worry?

We are discussing mental states. Worry or anxiety, like depresssion is one of those, no matter the cause of it.

I used to be a worrier. (I was not depressed) I worried about everything. Did it accomplish anything? NO. I turned to God for my strength and gave him all my cares and concerns. He takes care of me and I do not have to worry or be concern.

I think here you have said everything that needs to be said about this topic, when it comes to mental (not physical) states.

 

[ByGrace]

Lorelei,

People may have been offended by what I said, but unlike your posts, my posts were directed at depression (an issue), not a person. I named no names nor accused any one person here of anything specific.

Again, I merely quoted from the 13th chapter of 1 Cor. regarding doing all things in love. If that offends you I'm sorry.

And while depression may be just an "issue" for you....to some of us it's a little more than that.

Blessings,
Grace

 

[Thankful]

I disagree, I do not believe it has been proven.

Doctors on this Board have discussed and said that Clinical Depression exists.

People on this Board who have experienced Clinical Depression have told you that it exists.


Others have given you web sites that it exists.
Many of these web sites call depression an illness. There are many illnesses that we know of today that were not known in Biblical times.

As I have said before, God has provided doctors and medicine for us. He is our strength and we must put out trust in Him, but He has never said that we should not go to a doctor for help. Have you ever discussed a problem that you have with another person?

I still think you are discussing the feelings of depression: I am depressed because I don't like my job. I am depressed because the sun isn't shining. I am depressed because I haven't seen my grandchild in a week. These are feelings. These are not clinical depression or a depression that causing one to not get out of bed in the morning or one who can't decide which shoe to put on first or to be able to think clearly.


Further, I encourage anyone to seek God's help through prayer and the scriptures, through counseling with a pastor, but they may have a problem that needs to be discussed with their doctor.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Thankful:
There are many illnesses that we know of today that were not known in Biblical times.

None of those had to do with emotions or feelings, or as Pastor Larry called it a "mental state"

Should I believe all of your sources or the Bible? The Bible is clear, the fruit of depression is in direct conflict with the fruit of the Spirit.

I can show you lots of scientists that will tell you that the world was created by evolution, we have to go by God's Word, not man's.

The problem is your beleif HAS to rely on outside sources, because the Bible offers no proof that our minds can not be controlled by the Spirit.

~Lorelei

 

[Thankful]

Should I believe all of your sources or the Bible? The Bible is clear, the fruit of depression is in direct conflict with the fruit of the Spirit.

Fruit of Depression?

The problem is your beleif HAS to rely on outside sources, because the Bible offers no proof that our minds can not be controlled by the Spirit.

I disagree with your opinion of my beliefs.

I did not say that our minds cannot be controlled by the Spirit. God is all powerful.

I'm going to be off the Board for awhile as I have to prepare for church.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

"And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

The problem? Failure to find rest in God.

The root of the problem? Unbelief.

It's as simple as that. I think Lorelei makes a good point that sadness is not depression. Paul was sad over the spiritual condition of Israel - but that did not interupt his peace with God; he was even personally chastened by God, but, in his own words,

"not in despair."

Despair comes when we allow the chastening of God to drag us down rather than lift us up as was intended. This is the exact phenomena we are warned against in Hebrews:

"My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord nor faint when thou art rebuked of him."

And again,

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grevious; nevertheless afterward it yeildeth the peacable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees. And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way, but let it rather be healed."

Great God Almighty, what a powerful statement! If God's people would follow that advice it would shut the "Christian Counseling" industry down!

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Ernie Brazee]

Couldn't be a much simpler summation:

Dear Mark:

So than you are saying that one should put their trust totally in God, for that would be the sin not trusting God, than according to the scripture God will give one the peace of God that passes all understanding.

Trusting God that He will take care of things in one's mind. Will step out in faith on this, and will let you know.

In His Grace, Pam

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Pam,

Yes, I'm saying one should put his trust totally in God. But that is not just a passive activity. That is not just a matter of saying, "Ok, God, I believe you will give me peace."

It is a matter of trusting God's word enough to act on it and do the things commanded of us. "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Mark Osgatharp

 

[CompassionFlower]

Yes, I'm saying one should put his trust totally in God. But that is not just a passive activity. That is not just a matter of saying, "Ok, God, I believe you will give me peace."

It is a matter of trusting God's word enough to act on it and do the things commanded of us. "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Mark Osgatharp [/QB][/QUOTE]


Dear Mark:

Rest assured, I am in know way being passive about this trusting in God. I have shed many a tear over what has been said here. Going to God in prayer and seeking what He would want me to do. Listening for His guidance in my life. My taking scriptures read here, and reading them myself from my bible, allowing Holy Spirit to reveal things personally to me.

Reading John 14, given to me by Pastor Larry. Pastor Larry is John speaking about how the disciples were troubled at what Jesus was talking to them about. So Jesus said to them, "Do not let your hearts be troubled." Trust in God." In the middle of John 14 Jesus speaks of "If anyone LOVES ME, he will obey my teaching." Meaning obedience comes out of a heart of love for Christ. Love for what He has done for us first, He loved us first and than we loved Him. Not by some command, we are not to keep commandments, the law was to show us we were sinners. Now we should have love for Christ, so much love that we would want to be obedient to Him. Towards the end of John 14, Jesus again says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." Fear can be such a debilitating thing in our lives. It does not have to be fear because of a sin, but rather could be fear of man, what hurt man is able to cause. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. There is nothing to fear for as Phil. 1:6 says "He began a good work in (us) will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Even if man hurts us, God can take that hurt and work it out for good in our lives.

I have listened to fellow believers, meditated on the Word of God, prayed. Christ guidance for me is to drop the dose of medication. The journey has been long about a year and a half, but with Christ help I will get through.

Thank God for this board and for the love He has shown to us all.

In His Grace, Pam

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
[The problem is your beleif HAS to rely on outside sources, because the Bible offers no proof that our minds can not be controlled by the Spirit.

~Lorelei [/QB]

Lorelei I dissagree with your summation of the opposing sides view on the value and sufficency of scripture. As surely as I must believe Pastor Larry when he testifies that nobody from your side has practiced and proposed using a judgemental self righteous attitude in dealing with those who are depressed I must also believe it when the other side tries to explain that they are not claiming God cannot handle the situation but rather that in some cases they feel God would have them and others to seek alternative help.
I personaly feel your quote above might be considered mean spirited and I must add that Jesus reminded the disciples that the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. What is the answer? to strengthen the spirit in the inner man of course and why should it seem so harmful if a counselor or even a prescribed drug helped that person along their journey to wellness both mental and spiritual. If I have offended you I am sorry but I just want to make myself clear that the attacks and judgements from both sides must stop now!!!! let's all discuss the issues but not the individuals.
Murph

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I must also believe it when the other side tries to explain that they are not claiming God cannot handle the situation but rather that in some cases they feel God would have them and others to seek alternative help.

Murph,

How do I ask this without sounding judgmental? I do not see this as a biblical response. I follow the Word of God in all areas of my life. I see scripture that tells me that our minds are controllable, they are to be renewed. I see no verses that say depression or any mental state is a disease. In all fairness, that argument has not been proven biblically, nor can it be.

The fact that anyone who was depressed in the Bible found freedom through God alone is provable in the scripture. The fact that God would have others to seek alternative help can not be proven Biblically can it? That is my point. I am not trying to be mean, but I am pointing out that this approach is not Biblical. Can you find me scripture that tells me I can seek outside help for these things?

The more I quote the Bible, the more closed minded I am considered to be. Is the Bible our final authority for faith and practice or is it not? If it is, please show me where I was wrong. Show me where the Bible says that if you do not feel peace you can seek alternative help. Where does the Bible say this promise does not apply to people with the disease of depression? We have shared the scriptures and no one denies them verbally, but in practice they seem to have no significance.

Are the promises of peace available to ALL Christians without seeking outside medical treatment? Yes or No. Please use scripture to support your answer.

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I personaly feel your quote above might be considered mean spirited and I must add that Jesus reminded the disciples that the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. What is the answer? to strengthen the spirit in the inner man of course and why should it seem so harmful if a counselor or even a prescribed drug helped that person along their journey to wellness both mental and spiritual.

We are told that the flesh is weak, but where are we told to get our strength from? I find it extremely harmful to try to strengthen the spirit through drugs!

2 Cor 12:9

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
KJV

We do NOT have a spirit of fear or weakness within us. We have the HOLY Spirit within us! He does NOT need any more strength, he is all powerful and our strength comes from Him!

2 Tim 1:7

7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
KJV

I see no scriptures that say it is ok to use drugs (perscribed or not) to strengthen our spirit on our "journey to wellness." Where do you find that in the BIBLE?

~Lorelei

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I must also believe it when the other side tries to explain that they are not claiming God cannot handle the situation but rather that in some cases they feel God would have them and others to seek alternative help.

****Murph I fear you have missed the point of this discussion, it is not a place where anyone is guaranteed the chance to become the winner. I am unhappy that while you object to half of my quote above you did not take notice that I also gave concesions to your side of the argument as well. I try to seek harmony and fairness so I expect it in others as well.

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I personaly feel your quote above might be considered mean spirited and I must add that Jesus reminded the disciples that the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. What is the answer? to strengthen the spirit in the inner man of course and why should it seem so harmful if a counselor or even a prescribed drug helped that person along their journey to wellness both mental and spiritual.

We are told that the flesh is weak, but where are we told to get our strength from? I find it extremely harmful to try to strengthen the spirit through drugs!

</font>[/QUOTE]I see no scriptures that say it is ok to use drugs (perscribed or not) to strengthen our spirit on our "journey to wellness." Where do you find that in the BIBLE?

Lorelei let's look at my words again along with your interpretation of them: What is the answer? to strengthen the spirit in the inner man of course and why should it seem so harmful if a counselor or even a prescribed drug helped that person along their journey to wellness both mental and spiritual. [/QUOTE]

I never said that one can or should strengthen their spirit thru drugs and I don't appreciate being taken out of context. What I am saying is that while you or I may be strong enough to walk without any outside help, others may not be as far along as we and for the present time they may require outside help. I am upset that so many seem quick to proclaim others are somehow less of a christian or acting unbiblically if they are not at the same place as they are. I mean no harm to you or your side but I must suggest that you not take mine or anyone elses words out of context.
Murph

 

[Pastor Larry]

Murph,

With do respect, I think the implication of your quote was that while the strengthening of the inner man is the right way to address, if someone is not strong enough to do that on their own, they should seek some sort of medication to help them. Here is what you said:

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...I must add that Jesus reminded the disciples that the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. What is the answer? to strengthen the spirit in the inner man of course and why should it seem so harmful if a counselor or even a prescribed drug helped that person along their journey to wellness both mental and spiritual.

</font>[/QUOTE]

A prescribed drug on the journey to wellness is exactly what Loralei is saying in not Scriptural. The prescription scripture gives is different: Be renewed in your mind. That is an important distinction when it comes this discussion. These drugs alter the mind, but they do not renew it. The only renewing of hte mind comes through Scripture as the mind submits itself to Scripture.

 

[Lorelei]

I think Pastor Larry summed it up rather well.

~Lorelei

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

DEPRESSION: An emotional state in which there are extreme feelings of sadness, dejection, lack of worth, and emptiness.

The CAUSE of depression can be hereditary, drug-related, lack of balance of hormones, chemical imbalances, or diet.

Depression can ALSO result from diseases such as nervous system disorders, infection, or cancer.

This definition is taken from the Mosby Medical Encyclopedia-Revised Addition. It is the Winner of American Journal of Nursing Book-of-the-Year Award.

Who is a mere lay person to judge what is causing any certain depression given the list of things it CAN be caused by, in the above description?

Only a medical doctor can make a diagnosis. I feel it is very presumptious for anyone to say that I have a 'lack of faith', or am filled with 'unbelief' without having all my medical records at their disposal!
_________________________________________

Originally posted by CompassionFlower:
I have listened to fellow believers, meditated on the Word of God, prayed. Christ guidance for me is to drop the dose of medication.

PAM ; I sincerely hope this is God's guidance and not what someone has said on this board.

Stopping your medication without consulting your doctor can have very dire effects.

I would advise you strongly to seek your doctor's advice before stopping any medication, especially after taking it for a period of time. Some medications have to be reduced slowly. Only your doctor can advise you.

NNE on this board, no matter how well meaning, should be telling you to stop your medication.

I am sure no one on this board, including myself, would want the responsibility, should adverse repercussions befall you, from you stopping your medication.

The medical authorities, and the preachers who realize God CAN and DOES use all sorts of methods to heal us; who have posted on this subject in here would agree with me, I'm sure.

Blessings to all who are suffering.

Sue