The Peace Of God That Passes All Understanding

Thank you, I am Blessed, for posting this.

Thank you, Murph, for trying to keep this thread in perspective.

 

Often, simply asking the right questions can show what the cause of depression is. It is not a difficult task. The medical doctor can make a diagnosis about medical causes, and as I have said, the first homework assignment for a counselee is a complete medical checkup. But when that checkup fails to produce a medical cause, then we turn to the spiritual because that is the only thing left.

I would agree that you should check with your doctor concerning stopping drugs. There might be a need for reducing it slowly to prevent throwing your body into a revolt.

I don't think anyone has. We have simply said what the Bible says about dealing with these problems. If there is a medical cause, then take medicine. If there is not, then don't. Address the real issue.

We agree that God uses all sorts of methods to heal us. But we must make a distinction between physical and spiritual issues and unfortunately, that distinction is glossed over way too easily by well-meaning, but misguided people, IMO (to put the shoe on the other foot). That is not an attack on anyone. It is simply an observation, having read what has been said here and have seen it in professional articles and journals. It is too simplistic to approach everything with "see a doctor and take your medicine." There are other causes and we must address those in a way that gives real hope to the people involved.

 

It seems like we have a sort of Baptist brand of Christian Science going on here! I am absolutely amazed.

Depression is a symptom, folks. It is not the 'disease' itself.

For those of you who read C.S. Lewis, in one of his sermons or essays, he mentioned that the body is only capable of so many responses, and that some have to 'double up.' For an example he presented that 'lurch' in the stomach which can accompany a thrill of terror or a thrill of beauty. The lurch is exactly the same feeling, but the context defines it. And if it is a lurch of terror, one does not treat the lurch, one looks for the cause to eliminate it.

Depression is a reaction which can be the result of a number of causes. One of them is distance from God. There is only one cure for that one! Get closer!

But there are other causes. I am aware of two ladies on Baptist Board who battle something called fibromyalgia. Do you know what that is? Daily pain caused by a malfunctioning autonomic nervous system. I know from my own knee problems and some adhesion problems in my side from the horse kicking me when I was 21 that constant pain can be debilitating almost in the extreme. It robs you of the energy you need for so much else, and as you see your "gotta get to it" work multiply daily, and you realize that there is no way you can keep up, you begin to feel like a lousy wife and housekeeper. Right? Wrong? That's what happens. And when you see you cannot do what it is you used to do, and what it is you should be doing, sometimes you have to walk through an episode of depression as God teaches you what it is HE wants you to do.

It's not just a quick switch-over. There is a time element involved.

Dealing with the pain is one thing; dealing with the frustration of being so exhausted and limited is another.

Betrayal by a business parter or marriage partner. It's a little hard to be chipper. Pollyanna doesn't cut it. Read Psalm 55 -- betrayal can leave you stunned, awake nights, weeping, exhausted. Yes, you recover. Yes, in the long run the Christian learns to trust through all things. But in the meantime, if there is a family to care for, a business to run, obligations to fulfill, a good night's sleep, at the least, can be an imperative.

One does not NEED pain medication, even after surgery, actually. But studies have shown that pain not only tends to be self-feeding, but it also slows down the healing process. Depression is the same. It is a real pain, not simply one brought on by wrong thinking. And, like surgery, if something to numb the pain for a bit at first is going to help, then DO IT!

Again, some do fine without it, and God bless them! But they should in no way judge those who need the pain medication, either physically or emotionally, until there has been a little time between the event and the person, and healing has at least begun. The idea with both types of pain medication is not to overdo or use on a prolonged basis.

My 23 year old daughter was diagnosed at 17 with Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy, another malfunctioning of the autonomic nervous system, and also one where the main symptom is pain, sometimes intense, in one area of the body for no apparent reason. Hers was the type referred to as 'cold onset', meaning the affected part went very cold. It results in death about half the time.

I walked by her bedroom one day and she was sobbing. Thinking she had just had a fight with her boyfriend, I asked what was wrong. "Nothing." That doesn't cut it for this mom! So I walked in and told her I was there for her and I knew she wasn't crying for nothing.

"Mom, most girls can look forward to getting married and having a family. I don't know if my future is tomorrow or next week or next month. What does God want from me, anyway?"

Was she depressed? Absolutely!

Was she on medication? You bet. She needed to be able to start sleeping again, for one of her problems was only being able to sleep for a couple of hours and then waking up totally nervous and in pain. She was given giant doses of Trazedone (an antidepressant in smaller doses) and pain killers to allow her simply to sleep a normal 8 hours.

And slowly she started to heal in her soul.

Today she has been married for almost a year and is doing beautifully. She has also taken herself completely off the drugs that helped her survive the initial onslaught.

And I cannot imagine the extra pain I could have caused her by not accepting her depression as real and not a condemnable reaction to what had happened to her. I cannot imagine the extra pain she would have had to cope with if I had denied her the right to the medication to see her through that initial period.

But that is the same pain some of you here are causing some of the folk who have battled depression due to one cause or another.

Depression is a symptom and only a symptom. It is not a sin. It may be the reaction to a sin, but it may also be the reaction to something else that must be walked through and learned from. And unless the person is hanging on the the depression as a default position in life -- and that does happen -- then he or she WILL heal. Trust in God will have deepened, too, as the Christian will have seen how God walked him or her through even that.

Short term medication for depression is a bid for time and a way to break the depression cycle, especially when it is involved with sleeplessness. When that time and that sleep are needed to help the healing process along, for instance after the death of a child or long-time spouse, then back off and don't judge. God will heal. No one is debating that. But that bid for time on an emotional plane is EXACTLY the same as the bid for time on a physical plane after a surgery -- to allow the healing to start without having to battle the pain itself.

If you (generic 'you') understand to separate the depression from the cause of it, you will understand what I am talking about. If that does not make sense to you, then at least quit telling others what they should or should not be doing regarding their own pain; quit the judging.

 

Thank you, Pastor Larry and Helen, for your very informative posts.


1 Timothy 2
2:1
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
2:2
for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

Thanks, Pastor Larry, for this clear statement. I think too many have missed this. What I get from what you and others have been saying is that spiritual causes need a spiritual treatment, not medical. I haven't noticed (correct me if I am wrong) anyone saying that depression never can have physical causes that can be treated medically. But we who operate in the spiritual realm are guilty and the sources of much hurt, if we do not tell people of the spiritual consequences of spiritual problems - and if we fail to point them to the spiritual solutions. To treat these medically, at best, only masks the problem, and, at worst, can intensify the problem.

[ March 04, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

God bless you, Helen!

Hugs from,
Grace

 

I agree that the only true peace comes from God but I will entertain using a counselor and or medication as help in some people's reaching the place where you are now.

Once again Larry and everyone else, if you all agree that this needs discussing then we had all better raise the standard of our posting and we must place the grace we show to other posters at
a point almost equal to scripture itself. As Christians I feel we can do that.

Murph

 

You are right Murph. As Christians we SHOULD be able to do that; but I don't see that happening.

Most of the posters on these threads about depression have chosen sides.

One side is labeled "hardhearted".

The other side is labeled "unspiritual".

These threads are always redundant.

I can't think of anything new to be said and I can't see the two sides agreeing.

I, for one, don't think it needs any more discussion.

I'm getting depressed.

Sue

 

Where is this namecalling?? IMO, I think we might be being oversensitive here. Let's remember that these are comments directed to people we don't even know apart from this board. This discussion, IMO, is very tame compared to some. I have not seen this namecalling and the like. The fact that someone disagrees does not mean it is a name. There is no intent on my part to slam anyone, to be hateful, or to call names. But let's not take issues and make them personal. Let them stand as they do.

As for taking medication, my issue is that when we tell people, "You are not at pastor Larry's level and it's okay to take medicine to get there, it seems that we have undermined the biblical approach that tells us to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." (I use that example because that is what Mike used.) I "got to my level" without the help of any medications. One might reply that "You weren't as bad off as they are," and I would respond "You have no way to know that." The point is that we are not permitted by Scripture to take allow degrees of spirituality to determine our approach. Either someone is obedient or they are not. I think it's that simple. (Remembering I am not talking about medical issues here.) Some would argue that it is okay to give someone drugs to get them to a certain place. I am not convinced by that.

I think that in our counseling (whether with self or with others), we must constantly as ourselves this question: Is this thought or feeling in accord with what I know about God from the Scripture? If it is not, control your thoughts and take them captive. I base that on, among others, 2 Cor 10:5. What does that verse mean, if not this?

 

________________________________________

The point is that we are not permitted by Scripture to allow degrees of spirituality to determine our approach.
________________________________________

Pastor Larry; Would you then expect a baby Christian to have the same level of faith, walk, and talk as a mature Christian?

You can't give a baby meat; they will choke on it.

"For everyone that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
Hebrews 5:13-14


Sue

 

Larry, are you saying that when my husband walked out on us, I should have exclaimed "Praise the Lord!" instead of looking around at the devastation he had wreaked in seven lives and knowing I had to help us all through it? Instead of longing to hold him one more time and somehow maybe even pretend it hadn't all really happened? Instead of looking financial hardship in the face and wondering how we were going to do it?

Yes, this is personal to me. Depression and pain are VERY personal things and people can only reference their own experience to what is being said here.

Are you saying that when my daughter was facing what may have been a death sentence, she should have ignored the thoughts and dreams young girls have instead of trying to deal with the loss of them?

You used the last part of 2 Corinthians 10:5 to buttress your argument. Let's put it back in context, OK? Paul is referring the the slander against him by opposition in the Corinthian church. He is threatening to take action to prove his apostolic authority. The full verse 5 reads, "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

This has NOTHING to do with physical illnesses or depression!

In the meantime, I can guarantee to you that should you ever have the experience of having six children to raise when one parent has just walked out -- and five of those children were not wanted by their birth parents, or were taken away from them -- and you have each of them ask you "If you didn't have me, would daddy have stayed?" "If I was better, would daddy have stayed?" -- your heart would break as mine did. You, too, might look up into the sky and beg God for something to ease the pain of seeing these children so lost, so confused, so hurt. And you, too, might look for some way to ease your own hurt enough at first to be able to help them deal with theirs.

You might have looked for a way to sleep at night, when the bed was empty next to you and you knew that person you had loved so long was lying with someone else at that moment.

You might have looked for a bit of a pain-killer for awhile for the heart amputation that had just happened without any anesthetic.

Taking thoughts captive to Christ does indicate, by the way, that those thoughts were not there to begin with, and that they had to be brought there. Depending on the circumstances, that can take some time...

We made it. But it took time. So much pain and damage to walk through for each of us. Some of us have had our faith strengthened and learned to trust the Lord and love Him even more. I am one of these. But I have children who have gone the other way, rejecting it all.

That hurts, too. And I pray for them everyday.

I am married to a most wonderful man now. But I still have children who are trying to become adults, through the damage, through the rejection, through the lonely years. I have a friend who lost her only daughter to a brain tumor. She is a wonderful Christian lady who is battling the depression that hit when she has had to clean up her daughter's room. She will be OK -- maybe next year. Maybe next week. She also knows she will be OK. She has that peace beneath the depression. But she is also wise enough to know she has to walk through this time. And her husband is wise enough to know that a month's worth of antidepressants are not going to fry her brain or ruin their marriage. Instead, they will help her cope with raising her sons and being there for them as they cope with the loss of a dearly-loved sister.

Are you saying they should not grieve? After all, the girl is with the Lord. Shouldn't they be rejoicing about that and forget their grief?

Or, perhaps, do this grief and this depression actually help them bring some of those thoughts captive to Christ? Perhaps the calm she feels artificially with the medication is reminding her that there is calm with Christ?

That is what she is telling me, anyway...

And she is looking forward to the time when she will be able to handle this on her own, and the time when her heart will quit bleeding inside with the wound of the loss of a daughter.

Please, please think about what you are saying. I have been getting PM's from people who are reading this thread telling me stories that break my heart; they came here looking for support and prayer and relief from situations that are ongoing and ripping.

Let us not deny them that. What is a friend or a brother if he or she cannot walk through the hard times WITH you and not condemn you for handling it the best way you know how? These are Christians here -- and they love the Lord, and they trust Him, and they know it will be all right in the long run. But this time, this now, hurts so badly. Don't condemn them, please, for allowing the pain to be eased a bit so they CAN keep bringing their thoughts captive to Christ. They know they will be healed of their various problems at the right time. We knew that, too. God is faithful.

But pain is also pain.

 

No, but that does not mean that I would disguise or hide the biblical call for obedience. And that, to me, is the point. I do not tell a baby Christian that it is permissable to address spiritual problems wrongly.

 

No problem. I didn't mean it that way at all. I didn't mean to impugn you or your motives or tell you how to do it.

I agree with this but the call is always to obedience through conforming our thinking to Scripture.

 

No, not saying that at all. I can't see how you got that out of my statement.

I am not denying that people hurt and have problems. But the discussion is on how do we handle those problems. To me, there are some clear biblical principles for situations like these that we should focus on.

As it was to me for a long time. I haven't been through what you have but I have been through other things, that threatened my sanity and my life. It was a miserable period of years.

Not at all. Deal with those, but deal with them biblically, through the biblical examples. Consider the life of Job who lost everything he had except his wife (and I often say he probably wished he had lost her because of the hard time she gave him). When faced with loss, he said, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away; Blessed be the name of the Lord." There was total confusion for him and it is manifest in his comments. He started getting angry and depressed and questioning God and God sat him down and in chapters 36 to the end lays it out as plainly as it can be. Those chapters are phenomenal chapters for those who suffer from depression. One thing that comes clearly forth from these chapters is that when we can do the things that God can do, then we can question him. Until then, we don't have to understand; we have to trust.

The principle of the verse is what I was addressing. I am well aware of the context, having addressed it several times in different messages. The verse clearly teaches that we can control our thoughts and that we have a responsibility to.

As I read your post, I can't help but think that you are not understanding what I am saying. I agree that there are hurting people and that we must help them. This is not a "praise God anyway" remedy, although we mustn't forget that we are to "In everything, give thanks for this is the will of God" (1 Thess 5). I do not disagree that people have hurts and pains and troubles. But when you are surrounded by six kids who want answers about why their dad walked out, the answer can one of many but it should include a firm teaching on a sovereign and loving God who cares for us far more than he could. It should include the fact that sin makes people do stupid things. It should include the fact that choices have consequences. It should include the fact that even though daddy leaves, God is still here, right where he always is, on the throne of the universe ruling in sovereingty.

I agree that it is hard to sleep at night. I have been there, both for my fault and not my own fault. But David, facing a situation as bad as any we face said I will lay down and sleep in peace becuase you O Lord make me dwell in safety. If someone wants to take a sleeping pill, that's between them and God. I can't imagine recommending becuase I don't see the biblical principle calling for it.

I understand that life hurts and let us never forget that it is result of sin. But no matter how bad it hurts, Christ died for sin and this life is only temporary.

I am not saying that people shouldn't grieve, but how do we grieve?? We should grieve biblically. It is impossible here to deal with specifics but suffice it to say that in every situation you cite that is not medical, there is a solid biblical answer that requires nothing but the commitment be renewed in our minds. Other things may work temporarily but the battle will be fought and won in the mind controlled by the Holy Spirit through Scripture.

I have thought about it for well over ten years. This is not something that I address lightly. When you get PMs from people with heart-breaking stories, what do you tell them?? Do you tell them to center their life on Christ, to center their thoughts on him?? We serve a God who is bigger than any problems, but sometimes we seem so determined to bring him down to our level.

I am not condemning anyone for hurting. That is a part of life. But God is still God and he still calls me to a certain way of thinking. I do not have the option of allowing people to think that they can please God by ignoring that way of thinking. I just can't do it. There are answers and we must seek those answers in Scripture.

What I see in your post is a lot of hurt, all of which is addressed directly in Scripture. For a daughter who doesn't know whether she will get married, a sovereign, loving God is still in control. For parents who have lost a child, we do not grieve as those who have no hope (but we do grieve). We serve a sovereign God in whose wisdom the life of a little girl was more valuable in heaven than on earth. The heartbreak of loss is salved by grace of a loving God who gives grace to sustain in time of need. For a family whose dad left is the all caring Father who promises to sustain. Too often we box God into working the way we think he should and if he doesn't, we just want to run off and quit, or we get to brooding and sulking rather than taking care of things spiritually. God works the way he wants and we must always tell ourselves that.

I like the way D Martin Lloyd Jones put it (I wish I had the exact quote. I will get it when I go back to my office): He said the problem with depression is we don't spend enough time talking to ourselves. We spend too much time listening to ourselves.

So, as you encouraged me, I encourage you: Be very careful with what you say. Your words have the power to remove all hope from people. They have the power to diminish the loving God of grace who promised sufficient grace for all of our needs, even the ones that hurt very badly. Let us direct our thoughts and minds to God. Stop thinking about ourselves.

 

I just wanted to say some things to everyone that has participated in this discussion.

I thank God for each and every one of you. I can see this subject from both "sides" and I understand both viewpoints.

I have had bouts with depression and have taken prescription antidepressants. I know what it's like to not want to face another day. I have been there and done that more than a couple of times unfortunately. I can honestly say that, looking back, I was not walking with God the way I should have been when the depression started. (Now please don't be offended. I am just relating my personal experience and what I know to be the cause of it.) I know when I get my mind off of myself and my problems and onto Christ and what God would have me to think on and do, it's like the sun comes out from behind the clouds. I know that probably sounds rediculous and simplistic but that's the best way I know of to explain it.

I do want to say that I don't believe that the people who maintain God is the answer to issues of the mind, are doing so with any animosity or hardness of heart. Rather, it is considered the purest expression of love to point brothers and sisters in Christ to the only One who is able to create in us a sound mind. And not only able, but He has promised us in His word, if we do and think on what He tells us. Now, will it be more difficult for some of us to claim those promises? Absolutely. We are all different. But would He promise us something that He is unable to make happen? I don't think so. Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Please, please don't take what I am saying the wrong way. I am not trying to be judgemental. I am not trying to belittle anyone. I am only trying to share a truth from the word of God with my brothers and sisters in Christ from a heart of love.

God bless and keep you all.

 

Pastor Larry, I am awed by your last post!. I see compassion for others that I have not seen before. Perhaps it was my fault.

We do need to look to God for peace of mind and sometimes we need another person to assist us in that journey, such as a friend or a pastor.

Fortunately, I have not had to take medicine to endure my problems, but I do not fault anyone who does.

I did ask the doctor for sleeping pills when my first husband died suddenly. He (an MD) was reluctant to give them to me, but he did. I took one, one was all it took. My family, my church, pastor, and friends helped me through that time. There have been other times when I needed my friends to remind me to put all my trust and faith in God. My mother told me, "God loves you and He will Take Care of You." She is right. He will.

Perhaps we are all saying the same thing, but understanding within our own experiences.

But if someone is taking medicine, please discuss
with your doctor if you should stop taking it.

 

I echo Betty's post Pastor Larry. I, too, could see compassion in your last post than I had previously seen. Thank you!


Sue

 

Dear Friends;

For 26 years I have been a JW, believing and understanding life from the JW doctrine. Because of the abuse in my life as a child growing up and into my teen years, the JW's became a refuge for me. My abusers rejected me, when I became a JW, they wanted nothing to do with me because of my religious beliefs. Overtime this became good in my mind, my abusers would never become JW's, so they were destined to death, they would never be resurrected. I became cold and hated my abusers, and was waiting for the day when Jehovah would have them pay by dieing, and that would be the end of them.

Well, when I than came out of the JW's and accepted Christ, everything began to change. No longer could I say that Jehovah would deal with my abusers. Fear took over my life, fear of what God wanted me to do with all this past. My past had to be dealt with, and definitely not with anger and revenge. It finally came that it was impossible for me to handle, things were coming from all directions, thoughts of what had happened in the abuse. Finally I went to my doctor to get something to help me cope. I also went to a therapist, to sort things out.

Just before all this got out of control, I prayed and looked for a church to go to. It is where I am now, the pastor, knows that I am on medication for depression, but he had no say in what I was doing back than. I was "new" to the church, and as it was having problems with JW things and the way the church did things. There were times I literally left the church in tears. Not for what anyone said but because of the fear in my mind over JW doctrine.

What I am trying to say is taking medication became my own choice, it would be thru listening to other sermons, Bob George, John MacArthur, that Christians didn't usually go for medication for depression. Never did I get into the scriptures to find things out that have been brought out here.

Christ helped me to clear up the fear of the abuse from the past. Christ has been there for me thru this all. Showing me things in the scriptures on how to deal with my past abuse, leading and guiding me to read of women who had been right where I was. How forgiveness, and mercy was to be shown to my abusers, to settle the hate and anger I had. There is so much that Christ has done for me.

I have come here, and have listened to the scriptures from Lorelie, Pastor Larry, Murphy, and others. Christ has been guiding me and leading me where to go, where He wants me to learn. This journey is all about Jesus Christ, and nothing really about me. This journey is about how Christ loves us so much, if we listen He will guide our lives.

I would say that over the taking of medication, lately, I have been just accepting the use. The doctor, has said that it is possible to drop the dose. If I would drop the dose, that would be one way I could see if things would be alright for me. The decision is mine to make, the doctor doesn't want to make that decision without my wanting to. It has been from coming here that, Christ has shown me things far more clearer, I believe that it is possible to drop the dose. Christ means everything in my life, if my relationship with Christ is actually improved by a closer obedience to Him, than that is what I would like to try to do. I have peace already with Christ, the relationship with Christ is far more important than this medication. I am just stepping out in faith for Christ to have a closer relationship with Him.

Hope this makes sense and rest assured, all things work out well, when we have a relationship with Christ.

Sincerely, Pam

 

Betty & Sue, I am curious and have a question. I hope you won't mind answering. I am wondering what it is in Pastor Larry's last post that causes you to think he is being compassionate, and why you have not thought he was compassionate before?? Perhaps it would be even good to define what you mean by compassionate. I am curious because it seems to me that Pastor Larry has maintained the same position throughout all of these discussions.