The Philosophy of Calvinism

[JonC]

Jesus taking the due judgement and punishment we deserved was most Holy thing ever done!

That is not what the verse says. The verse says that God became sin. Sin is an act of evil disobedience of God as an expression of unrighteousness.

I understand what you are saying - BUT it is an interpretation of the passage and not the passage itself.

 

[kyredneck]

I reject any premise that begins with the assumption that scripture means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the words say.

No you don't, you just think that you reject the premise.

This is "my body and my blood" can mean many things, however it CANNOT mean "this is NOT my body and my blood".
He "became sin" can mean many things, however it CANNOT mean "He DID NOT become sin"

And 'justification not by faith only' CANNOT mean 'justification by faith only', right? It cannot be "that scripture means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the words say", right?

 

[kyredneck]

My God, My God, why are you forsaking me?
Far more then just quoting psalms going on there!

...and you implying Christ was enduring the lake of fire is far more than what is actually written.

 

[kyredneck]

It's the other way around. Psalm 22 is looking forward to the Cross.

Right. It's prophetic, looking to the future.

"In the New Testament prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts to point back to prophecies." Alfred Edersheim

 

[Yeshua1]

It's the other way around. Psalm 22 is looking forward to the Cross.

Jesus was experiencing much more than bible memorization quote at that time!

 

[Yeshua1]

...and you implying Christ was enduring the lake of fire is far more than what is actually written.

He was feeling what it means to be really forsaken by the Father!

 

[Yeshua1]

That is not what the verse says. The verse says that God became sin. Sin is an act of evil disobedience of God as an expression of unrighteousness.

I understand what you are saying - BUT it is an interpretation of the passage and not the passage itself.

actually states that Jesus became our sin bearer, took upon Himself what we all deserved in the judgement of God due to us being sinners!

 

[kyredneck]

He was feeling what it means to be really forsaken by the Father!

Ok, but that's not what you said:

Jesus was experiencing upon His Cross the Hell that lost sinners will have to endure...

I was taught growing up that hell was basically eternal torment in the flames. You?

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok, but that's not what you said:



I was taught growing up that hell was basically eternal torment in the flames. You?

actually, eternal separation from God

 

[kyredneck]

actually, eternal separation from God

No flames? No Lake of Fire?

 

[JonC]

actually states that Jesus became our sin bearer, took upon Himself what we all deserved in the judgement of God due to us being sinners!

It says He made Him who knew no sin sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[tyndale1946]

No flames? No Lake of Fire?

Old School/Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist got rid the the No Heller's false doctrine long before I joined the church and that was 50 years ago... Some teach unbiblical annihilation, we don't, we believe what the Bible says... If it wasn't for the sacrifice Jesus Christ paid on our behalf, that none of us deserved, we would be going the same place!... Thank Almighty God for MERCY!... Brother Glen

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[JonC]

Jesus was experiencing much more than bible memorization quote at that time!

You have it backwards. Psalm 22 is "quoting" Christ's experience beforehand.

The forsakenness of God is a cry heard throughout the OT to demonstrate God never forsaken or hides His face from His Servant.

This foreshadowed the Cross.

 

[atpollard]

No you don't, you just think that you reject the premise.

And 'justification not by faith only' CANNOT mean 'justification by faith only', right? It cannot be "that scripture means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the words say", right?

Once again, proof that not all TROLLS live under bridges.

sex sunt quae odit Dominus et septimum detestatur anima eius
oculos sublimes linguam mendacem manus effundentes innoxium sanguinem
cor machinans cogitationes pessimas pedes veloces ad currendum in malum
proferentem mendacia testem fallacem et eum qui seminat inter fratres discordias - Proverbs 6:16-19

 

[atpollard]

but it CANNOT mean that God literally made Christ to become sin

Why?

because this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Scripture says.

It is not “EXACTLY OPPOSITE” of what 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, in fact that is EXACLY what 2 Corinthians 5:21 states:

2 Corinthians 5:21

• [NASB] He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
• [KJV] For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
  
• [YLT] for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.
  
• [DBY] Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him.
  
• [WEB] For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You keep telling me what it CANNOT mean, while ignoring the actual words that say exactly what you claim they cannot mean. The argument is not that Christ cannot have been made sin ... scripture already refutes that. The question is “How (in what sense) was Christ made sin?” and right along with that “How (in what sense) are we made the righteousness of God?”

 

[atpollard]

God is God. This is not a paradox. Either God is righteous or God is unrighteous. Either Christ was obedient to the Father to even to dying on a cross or He was disobedient. We cannot have it two ways. God is not a God of chaos.

Is God a man?
Can a man be God?
Can a woman give birth to the eternal being that created her?
Can God die, lay three days in a tomb and resurrect Himself?

Everything about God speaks of paradox and impossibility that is none the less, true. Why is it so impossible for the God that became a man and was tempted to become sin if he so wished?

It seems just like the LIFE that died, so that all who believe might live forever ... to become “sin” (bent, crooked, missing mark) and in doing so, transform our sin into perfect righteousness by His act of perfect obedience.

 

[JonC]

Why?


It is not “EXACTLY OPPOSITE” of what 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, in fact that is EXACLY what 2 Corinthians 5:21 states:

2 Corinthians 5:21

• [NASB] He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
• [KJV] For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
  
• [YLT] for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.
  
• [DBY] Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him.
  
• [WEB] For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You keep telling me what it CANNOT mean, while ignoring the actual words that say exactly what you claim they cannot mean. The argument is not that Christ cannot have been made sin ... scripture already refutes that. The question is “How (in what sense) was Christ made sin?” and right along with that “How (in what sense) are we made the righteousness of God?”

Because Scripture states that Christ was obedient.

 

[JonC]

Is God a man?
Can a man be God?
Can a woman give birth to the eternal being that created her?
Can God die, lay three days in a tomb and resurrect Himself?

Everything about God speaks of paradox and impossibility that is none the less, true. Why is it so impossible for the God that became a man and was tempted to become sin if he so wished?

It seems just like the LIFE that died, so that all who believe might live forever ... to become “sin” (bent, crooked, missing mark) and in doing so, transform our sin into perfect righteousness by His act of perfect obedience.

Yes, God did become a man.

But you are speaking of God actually changing (His nature) by becoming evil.

Look, you can believe whatever you want to believe. You will never convince me God became evil and I can not convince you He did not. I'm fine with that.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, God did become a man.

But you are speaking of God actually changing (His nature) by becoming evil.

Look, you can believe whatever you want to believe. You will never convince me God became evil and I can not convince you He did not. I'm fine with that.

What does it mean that we became the righteousness of God in Him?
Is our nature unchangeable, too? (It is the exact same verse).

 

[JonC]

What does it mean that we became the righteousness of God in Him?
Is our nature unchangeable, too? (It is the exact same verse).

No, man is changeable. In face I belueve we must be reborn and made new creations in Christ.