The Philosophy of Calvinism

[atpollard]

Consider that we do not literally drink Christ’s blood or eat His flesh.

I agree that Jesus was not speaking of anything as simple and crass as cannibalism. On the other hand, many would not have left if Jesus was using an equally simple symbolic metaphor that held no real significant meaning except "go to church, eat a cracker, drink a sip of grape juice and try to remember me once a month".

I am not changing the subject, put pointing out the parallel. God the Son did not become EVIL, any more than Christians all became cannibals. However God did more than a giant symbolic NOTHING-BURGER when Jesus cried out "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" SOMETHING real and significant happened when "he who knew no sin became sin". The details are above my pay grade, but the reality is unmistakable. Our sin is real and it matters and it COST GOD something to redeem us.

Remember the words of David "I will make no offering that costs me nothing." Is God capable of less than a man after His own heart? Just because something is metaphysical, does not make it "not real".

Shalom (peace and well being)

 

[MB]

They are the pastors and teachers listed as gifts given to the Body by God!

A thing we should all remember is to be like the Bereaians searching the scriptures.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
In other words don't just take the teachers word but make sure what they teach is in the Word of God.
MB

 

[JonC]

I agree that Jesus was not speaking of anything as simple and crass as cannibalism. On the other hand, many would not have left if Jesus was using an equally simple symbolic metaphor that held no real significant meaning except "go to church, eat a cracker, drink a sip of grape juice and try to remember me once a month".

I am not changing the subject, put pointing out the parallel. God the Son did not become EVIL, any more than Christians all became cannibals. However God did more than a giant symbolic NOTHING-BURGER when Jesus cried out "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" SOMETHING real and significant happened when "he who knew no sin became sin". The details are above my pay grade, but the reality is unmistakable. Our sin is real and it matters and it COST GOD something to redeem us.

Remember the words of David "I will make no offering that costs me nothing." Is God capable of less than a man after His own heart? Just because something is metaphysical, does not make it "not real".

Shalom (peace and well being)

Justify your method of interpretation.

How can you interpret that Jesus was not speaking of anything as simple and crass as cannibalism when He said to "drink my blood; eat my flesh", yet interpret God becoming sin as something as simple and crass as God becoming a disobedient, ungodly, unholy, evil act?

 

[kyredneck]

We are purchased by His blood.

...a few other accomplishments:

We are also justified by His blood:

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5

His blood also sanctifies us:

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate. Heb 13

His blood also cleanses our conscience:

14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9

His blood also united the two folds:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. Eph 2

...and no doubt there's several others that could be mentioned...

 

[Yeshua1]

You have my answer, Dave.
As in past threads when this subject comes up, you seem to place an awful lot of trust in those who came before us.
Question:

How do you know which ones to trust?

I do...
Proverbs 3:5-7.

In fact, He tells us as believers not to trust men implicitly, but to trust Him and Him alone.
Test the spirits, and test all teachers by their fruits.
How else will you know who the true and false teachers are?

Because they say nice things that seem correct?

Are you saying that there is NO sound theology except for scriptures, so no need ever to consult and use any external sources?

 

[Yeshua1]

I think it is simple. What was taught is what is written. Scripture - not man's understanding, opinion, interpretation, theories or theology - is sufficient.

Too many rely on men's teaching instead of the Bible.

God also gave to us gifted resources to use in addition to the Bible!

 

[Yeshua1]

He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB]


Respectfully, you claim that you agree with the verse as you deny what is specifically states. I cannot explain the HOW or WHY, but I can read and believe the WHAT that scripture clearly states.

You opened with this challenge:


I cannot provide a verse that says “it is just to condemn an innocent man to acquit a guilty man by punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty”, nor can I provide a verse that says “[an innocent man] can be ‘condemned’ or treated as if he had committed that crime” ... HOWEVER, I did provide two verses that state that an innocent man WAS condemned to acquit a guilty man and that an innocent man WAS treated as if he had committed the crime.

Can YOU provide a verse that says that God can restore the sight of a man born blind?
I can provide a verse that says that God DID restore the sight of a man born blind, so the fact that God DID DO IT means that GOD CAN DO IT without any verse needing to say that God can do it.

How is your question not really a matter of man attempting to pass moral judgement upon God? Are you not really asking “what right does God have to make Christ sin?” It is pointless to argue “Did God make Christ sin?” since scripture has clearly stated that God DID DO IT!

That is Pauline Justification , that Jesus would suffer in our place, as the sinless Son of God would become sin bearer for our sake, the righteousness death on behalf of the unrighteous!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that Jesus was not speaking of anything as simple and crass as cannibalism. On the other hand, many would not have left if Jesus was using an equally simple symbolic metaphor that held no real significant meaning except "go to church, eat a cracker, drink a sip of grape juice and try to remember me once a month".

I am not changing the subject, put pointing out the parallel. God the Son did not become EVIL, any more than Christians all became cannibals. However God did more than a giant symbolic NOTHING-BURGER when Jesus cried out "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" SOMETHING real and significant happened when "he who knew no sin became sin". The details are above my pay grade, but the reality is unmistakable. Our sin is real and it matters and it COST GOD something to redeem us.

Remember the words of David "I will make no offering that costs me nothing." Is God capable of less than a man after His own heart? Just because something is metaphysical, does not make it "not real".

Shalom (peace and well being)

Jesus was experiencing upon His Cross the Hell that lost sinners will have to endure...

 

[Yeshua1]

Justify your method of interpretation.

How can you interpret that Jesus was not speaking of anything as simple and crass as cannibalism when He said to "drink my blood; eat my flesh", yet interpret God becoming sin as something as simple and crass as God becoming a disobedient, ungodly, unholy, evil act?

How is the Atonement of Christ upon that Cross an unholy act then?

 

[Yeshua1]

Sound advise!

 

[JonC]

God also gave to us gifted resources to use in addition to the Bible!

Yes, as resources but not as additions to the Bible. God has given us teachers, preachers, evangelists, people to encourage us, and His Spirit to guide us and convict us.

But if God became evil, unrighteous, unholy....does it really matter?

 

[JonC]

Sound advise!

Listen to more Grateful Dead and less gangster rap.

Oh...were you asking?

 

[kyredneck]

esus was experiencing upon His Cross the Hell that lost sinners will have to endure...

...where does it say that? Would love to see scripture reference please...

 

[atpollard]

Justify your method of interpretation.

How can you interpret that Jesus was not speaking of anything as simple and crass as cannibalism when He said to "drink my blood; eat my flesh", yet interpret God becoming sin as something as simple and crass as God becoming a disobedient, ungodly, unholy, evil act?

I reject any premise that begins with the assumption that scripture means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the words say.

This is "my body and my blood" can mean many things, however it CANNOT mean "this is NOT my body and my blood".
He "became sin" can mean many things, however it CANNOT mean "He DID NOT become sin"

I cannot explain how the very GOD became a man and was both God (doing things that only God can do) and fully man (experiencing things that only a man can experience) ... yet scripture is clear that it is so. So I "interpret" that Jesus became sin the same way that I interpret that God became a man ... He said so and I have no reason to think the statement is not true. The flip side of the same question is "How can we be His righteousness?" and "How can God's Holy Spirit dwell inside of us?"

All are questions that touch on how the SPIRITUAL realm interacts with the PHYSICAL realm. That is "metaphysics". That is reality beyond even the strange world of relativity (where objects gain mass as they move faster) or quantum mechanics (where something can be "positive", "negative", "simultaneously positive or negative" or "simultaneously positive and negative"). If Newtonian logic doesn't even hold true for all physical truths, how can we expect it to hold true for metaphysical truths.

God became sin, the same way he became fully human and the same way we become His righteousness ... God is God.
Paradoxes are proof that He is God.

 

[JonC]

I reject any premise that begins with the assumption that scripture means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what the words say.

This is "my body and my blood" can mean many things, however it CANNOT mean "this is NOT my body and my blood".
He "became sin" can mean many things, however it CANNOT mean "He DID NOT become sin"

I cannot explain how the very GOD became a man and was both God (doing things that only God can do) and fully man (experiencing things that only a man can experience) ... yet scripture is clear that it is so. So I "interpret" that Jesus became sin the same way that I interpret that God became a man ... He said so and I have no reason to think the statement is not true. The flip side of the same question is "How can we be His righteousness?" and "How can God's Holy Spirit dwell inside of us?"

All are questions that touch on how the SPIRITUAL realm interacts with the PHYSICAL realm. That is "metaphysics". That is reality beyond even the strange world of relativity (where objects gain mass as they move faster) or quantum mechanics (where something can be "positive", "negative", "simultaneously positive or negative" or "simultaneously positive and negative"). If Newtonian logic doesn't even hold true for all physical truths, how can we expect it to hold true for metaphysical truths.

God became sin, the same way he became fully human and the same way we become His righteousness ... God is God.
Paradoxes are proof that He is God.

I agree.

God literally "becoming sin" CAN mean things (like a "sin offering", a "guilt offering", "bearing our sin", "treated as if He were sin") but it CANNOT mean that God literally made Christ to become sin because this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Scripture says.

God is God. This is not a paradox. Either God is righteous or God is unrighteous. Either Christ was obedient to the Father to even to dying on a cross or He was disobedient. We cannot have it two ways. God is not a God of chaos.

 

[JonC]

How is the Atonement of Christ upon that Cross an unholy act then?

Jesus "becoming sin" does not literally mean "the Atonement of Christ upon the Cross". Atonement does not mean "becoming an act of unrighteous".

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, as resources but not as additions to the Bible. God has given us teachers, preachers, evangelists, people to encourage us, and His Spirit to guide us and convict us.

But if God became evil, unrighteous, unholy....does it really matter?

I am just reacting to the belief that we do not need anything else other then the Bible, as there is no use to other books and tools!

 

[Yeshua1]

...where does it say that? Would love to see scripture reference please...

My God, My God, why are you forsaking me?
Far more then just quoting psalms going on there!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus "becoming sin" does not literally mean "the Atonement of Christ upon the Cross". Atonement does not mean "becoming an act of unrighteous".

Jesus taking the due judgement and punishment we deserved was most Holy thing ever done!

 

[JonC]

My God, My God, why are you forsaking me?
Far more then just quoting psalms going on there!

It's the other way around. Psalm 22 is looking forward to the Cross.