Jesus gave to us those men of the past and of the present, so should we not use their as treasures?If you gentlemen wish to consult with men in order to form your understandings about the Bible, that is fine...
But I'm following Christ alone.
To me, teachers and preachers tell me where in God's word that I can find the answers for myself.
They don't dictate to me how I understand His words.
May God bless each of you.
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The Philosophy of Calvinism
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
You have my answer, Dave.
As in past threads when this subject comes up, you seem to place an awful lot of trust in those who came before us.
Question:
How do you know which ones to trust?
I do...
Proverbs 3:5-7.
In fact, He tells us as believers not to trust men implicitly, but to trust Him and Him alone.
Test the spirits, and test all teachers by their fruits.
How else will you know who the true and false teachers are?
Because they say nice things that seem correct?
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If you gentlemen wish to consult with men in order to form your understandings about the Bible, that is fine...
But I'm following Christ alone.
To me, teachers and preachers tell me where in God's word that I can find the answers for myself.
They don't dictate to me how to understand His words.
May God bless each of you.
2 Timothy 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Just thought I would throw this in... God Bless you to Dave!... Brother Glen
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, Glen.
To me, he's telling Timothy that the things he had heard of Paul among many witnesses, those same things commit to faithful men...
The word of God.
Those same words they shall be able to teach others also.
But we're wandering from the topic, are we not?
How about someone starting a thread about who we, as believers should pay more attention to...
Scripture alone, or our favorite teachers plus God's word.
I'll be happy to make a few replies, but I get the distinct impression that I would be in a minority.
As always, I wish you well.
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I think it is simple. What was taught is what is written. Scripture - not man's understanding, opinion, interpretation, theories or theology - is sufficient.I agree, Glen.
To me, he's telling Timothy that the things he had heard of Paul among many witnesses, those same things commit to faithful men...
The word of God.
Those same words they shall be able to teach others also.
But we're wandering from the topic, are we not?
How about someone starting a thread about who we, as believers should pay more attention to...
Scripture alone, or our favorite teachers plus God's word.
I'll be happy to make a few replies, but I get the distinct impression that I would be in a minority.
Too many rely on men's teaching instead of the Bible.
What does Hebrews 11 -12:2 tell us?If you gentlemen wish to consult with men in order to form your understandings about the Bible, that is fine...
But I'm following Christ alone.
To me, teachers and preachers tell me where in God's word that I can find the answers for myself.
They don't dictate to me how to understand His words.
May God bless each of you.
Do you think God's legacy of faithful people ended with the Bible?
Why would the author to the Hebrews warn us not to neglect meeting together if we are not to learn from one another?
I am a bit surprised you are pushing back against God's word on this, Dave.
Hebrews 10:23-25 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. [2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB]
You opened with this challenge:
I cannot provide a verse that says “it is just to condemn an innocent man to acquit a guilty man by punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty”, nor can I provide a verse that says “[an innocent man] can be ‘condemned’ or treated as if he had committed that crime” ... HOWEVER, I did provide two verses that state that an innocent man WAS condemned to acquit a guilty man and that an innocent man WAS treated as if he had committed the crime.
Can YOU provide a verse that says that God can restore the sight of a man born blind?
I can provide a verse that says that God DID restore the sight of a man born blind, so the fact that God DID DO IT means that GOD CAN DO IT without any verse needing to say that God can do it.
How is your question not really a matter of man attempting to pass moral judgement upon God? Are you not really asking “what right does God have to make Christ sin?” It is pointless to argue “Did God make Christ sin?” since scripture has clearly stated that God DID DO IT!
Respectfully, you claim that you agree with the verse as you deny what is specifically states. I cannot explain the HOW or WHY, but I can read and believe the WHAT that scripture clearly states.
You opened with this challenge:
I cannot provide a verse that says “it is just to condemn an innocent man to acquit a guilty man by punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty”, nor can I provide a verse that says “[an innocent man] can be ‘condemned’ or treated as if he had committed that crime” ... HOWEVER, I did provide two verses that state that an innocent man WAS condemned to acquit a guilty man and that an innocent man WAS treated as if he had committed the crime.
Can YOU provide a verse that says that God can restore the sight of a man born blind?
I can provide a verse that says that God DID restore the sight of a man born blind, so the fact that God DID DO IT means that GOD CAN DO IT without any verse needing to say that God can do it.
How is your question not really a matter of man attempting to pass moral judgement upon God? Are you not really asking “what right does God have to make Christ sin?” It is pointless to argue “Did God make Christ sin?” since scripture has clearly stated that God DID DO IT!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, I do not.
Learn what?
To pass on our understanding of the Scriptures one to another?
That's why the Lord gave us His Spirit...
So that we may know the things freely given to us of God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
The purpose of assembling together, according to the Bible, is to edify one another and to build up one another in the faith.
To be instructed in godliness and in doctrine...
Not to base our understandings of God's word off the work of others.
Austin,
I don't follow John Calvin or "Calvinists"...
I follow my Lord, Jesus Christ.
Does that somehow offend you?
If so, I can't imagine why.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Oh, but I'm not, Austin.
What I'm pushing back against, is this idea of "Christian leaders" that has permeated the churches, especially in these last days.
Everyone following his or her favorite teacher or preacher,
instead of testing them by God's word and then supporting the good ones with their prayers.
Please keep in mind what the Lord said here:
Matthew 20:20-28.
We as believers are not subordinate to anyone but Him and His commands.
That also includes the government officials and powers that God has instituted, as we are to obey them as well.
If I were one of God's pastors, I would still say the same thing...
He is Lord, and whoever would be great among us, is to be our wise and humble servant, not our "leader".
I have no idea where some people get the impression that teachers and preachers are to command such authority, but it isn't the Bible.
It's not a cult following...we are all of us the beloved sons and daughters of God.
Quite the contrary to whatever we were taught, God's preachers and teachers deserve our honor and respect...
But definitely not our loyalty.
That is reserved for the Lord alone, and everyone bows to Him, Austin;
Especially those that the Holy Ghost has made overseers among us.
If you want to be in a system of hierarchy, then I suggest that you join the military.
I can tell you that I have first-hand experience with that, as I was a member of the U.S. Navy for over 10 years...
But that model is not the body of Christ, my friend.
That's how the men of this world do things.
Do you see anything here about putting men like John Calvin or John Wesley on a pedestal?
This look to me like it's far more of a group effort, and not a one-man-show, wouldn't you say?
Again and in my opinion, this deserves its own thread and we've drifted way off topic.
Go ahead and start one, but I think I've probably said everything that I intend to say right here, sir.
Good evening to you.
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Why do we not just sit in silence when we meet together? Was God perhaps mistaken to give some, in the body of Christ, the gift of teaching? Does every believer simply learn all there is to know about God by reading on his own?
I agree that we should question those who teach. Even Paul was questioned by the Bereans and they were commended for doing so. But to cast away those whom God has gifted as teachers seems to be dangerously close to casting out parts of the body of Christ as being unnecessary.
Dave, you are jumping to large conclusions that I have never espoused. In another comment, you bring up Calvin, but you know I don't follow Calvin either.Oh, but I'm not, Austin.
What I'm pushing back against, is this idea of "Christian leaders" that has permeated the churches, especially in these last days.
Everyone following his or her favorite teacher or preacher,
instead of testing them by God's word and then supporting the good ones with their prayers.
Please keep in mind what the Lord said here:
Matthew 20:20-28.
We as believers are not subordinate to anyone but Him and His commands.
That also includes the government officials and powers that God has instituted, as we are to obey them as well.
If I were one of God's pastors, I would still say the same thing...
He is Lord, and whoever would be great among us, is to be our wise and humble servant, not our "leader".
I have no idea where some people get the impression that teachers and preachers are to command such authority, but it isn't the Bible.
It's not a cult following...we are all of us the beloved sons and daughters of God.
Quite the contrary to whatever we were taught, God's preachers and teachers deserve our honor and respect...
But definitely not our loyalty.
That is reserved for the Lord alone, and everyone bows to Him, Austin;
Especially those that the Holy Ghost has made overseers among us.
If you want to be in a system of hierarchy, then I suggest that you join the military.
I can tell you that I have first-hand experience with that, as I was a member of the U.S. Navy for over 10 years...
But that model is not the body of Christ, my friend.
That's how the men of this world do things.
Do you see anything here about putting men like John Calvin or John Wesley on a pedestal?
This look to me like it's far more of a group effort, and not a one-man-show, wouldn't you say?
Again and in my opinion, this deserves its own thread and we've drifted way off topic.
Go ahead and start one, but I think I've probably said everything that I intend to say right here, sir.
Good evening to you.
You then bring up the idea that somehow learning from others equates to lifting them up on a pedestal. Who ever claimed they were doing such a thing.
All I have done is present scripture to you that shows us God uses teachers in his body. Why would anyone push back against this truth?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I didn't say "cast them away".
I think you're getting the wrong idea, Austin.
What I'm saying is, arrive at an understanding that is your own, not another man's.
That is all I am trying to get across, my friend.
But believe it or not, there are many people today that profess Christ that don't understand the difference between going along with their pastor, and digging into God's word for themselves and testing their pastors against it.
I suppose you could say I over-reacted, so I ask your forgiveness for my coming across as treating you unkindly.
At the same time, I cannot emphasize enough that teachers and preachers exist within the body of Christ for a reason...
And that's to build us up and to edify us until we all come together in the unity of the faith.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That, my friend, is a very great possibility.
Dave, we both will acknowledge the sinfulness of man, including our own souls. We are "prone to wander, Lord I feel it."
You are espousing a similar position as to that of the emergent church movement. That position advocates personal digging into God's word, which is very admirable, yet it also is dangerous in that it tends to ignore all the hard work of people who have gone on before to wrestle with truth. There are many in the emergent church movement who have gone down paths of heresy and liberalism that could have been avoided had they had counsel from the legacy of faithful brothers and sisters in Christ.
Rob Bell, former pastor of Mars Hill Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan (USA) comes to mind. He espoused the emerging church philosophy and is now entirely liberal and essentially a denier of the gospel.
I understand and appreciate seeking God first. I also appreciate the legacy that has gone before me who wrestled with these truths as well. I like hearing from them and being sharpened and/or corrected when my observations are incorrect due to my own ignorance of greek or hebrew or other cultural ignorance in my personal studies.
In other words, I am reticent to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I believe Hebrews 12:1-2 convey that same encouragement to us. We learn through personal study, yet we pay attention to our legacy that surrounds us.
I appreciate your respectful tone. I also do not disrespect you in our disagreement over what this passage says, even though I believe you are taking by faith a conclusion that Scripture itself denies.
If you do not believe that we literally eat human flesh and drink human blood in communion then you are being a bit inconsistent with your argument here.
Regarding God becoming sin, here is my reasoning:
Scripture tells us that God does not change (Malachi 3:6). Scripture tells us that God is holy (1 Peter 1:16). Scripture tells us that God does not condone sin (Habakkuk 1:13). So I do not believe that God literally changed to become evil, unholy, and unrighteous.
I accept that there are other interpretations (at one time I interpreted the passage to mean that God treated Christ as a sinner, that God was addressing our iniquity laid on Christ….but this is still not a literal rendering).
I like this board because it teaches me what others believe. This time you have given me a new (for me) view that God literally became sin (an evil, iniquity, unholy, unrighteous, rebellious action). I believe Scripture disagrees strongly with your conclusion as Christ was not disobedient to God but obedient even to death on a cross (Philippians 2:8).
But I respect that you hold this view, encourage you to reconsider (weigh your conclusion with Scripture, and consider that no scholars have argued your conclusion…it may be true, but when we believe something new it is probably wrong).
Consider that we do not literally drink Christ’s blood or eat His flesh. The Earth does not have four corners.
I will address the other part of your post separately so that this is not too long and is not related to the other comments.
Did the atoning sacrifice, shed blood, become sin or did the shed blood pay the ransom for sin?
2 Corinthians 5:20-6:2
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
2 Corinthians 5:20-6:2
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
But that was not exactly the challenge, now was it?
I also agree that Christ was condemned for us. The Innocent was condemned for the guilty. BUT there is a difference between punishing an innocent man for a guilty man and punishing an innocent man for the sins of a guilty man. That was Aquinas’ argument, and he is right.
Isaiah 35:5.
I am not saying that God is limited to what Scripture states. God could have made pigs fly when Jesus was born. BUT if you teach that as doctrine then I question your discernment (and perhaps your sanity).
Scripture, not our imagination of what could be, is our authority.
My question is not an attempt to pass moral judgment at all. As far as I can tell, it was not even a question.
Throughout Scripture God’s righteousness is called in to question. Sometimes it is Israel’s concern. Sometimes it is literally a cry for deliverance (as with Hezekiah, and Psalm 22). God’s righteousness stands the test and Scripture teaches that we are able to rely and trust God because of His righteousness. God will never become unrighteous. He will never become evil. This is a biblical fact. So mine is not questioning God because He became evil but stating that He did not because He is righteous.
You could claim that Jesus stole money from Mary and defend it as “how can you question God’s right to do as He pleases”? But it is not a matter of “right”. God would have that right. It is a matter of nature, of how Scripture describes God.
It is not a matter of right but a matter of God being God.
We are purchased by His blood.
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