The plausibility of John 3:18

[SovereignGrace]

No. That is where I think that you have made a serious error. You seem to be suggesting that people who have not heard of Christ in terms of the gospel message are innocent of rejecting Him. But Scripture tells us that they have heard enough to be found guilty because even the Godhead is evidenced to them.

Can you accept this verse: "For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. Rom 1:20" or do you believe it without merit?

That’s not what I said and not even remotely close.

Take Shaun in a remote area who never heard of the Christ. He is condemned already, condemned in Adam. He did nothing to earn this condemnation. If he dies before he hears the gospel, he dies lost. Why? He was a sinner who died in his sins, never knowing the way to the Father.

 

[loDebar]

The idea that verse is not true but might be discussed as plausible is laughable

If there is question, the error is our understanding of a verse or others.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We are somewhat straying from the OP. I believe that John 3:18 in its context does not teach that the original cause for condemnation is unbelief. He is certainly teaching those in present unbelief are condemned already and that unbelief manifests that condemnation. But in context we must remember he is talking to Nicodemus and the original subject is the new birth (Jn. 3:3-11). The issue of belief is first introduced in verse 12 because Nicodemus did not believe in new birth (vv. 8-11). Faith in Christ is first introduced in verse 15.

However, we must remember that new birth is the primary subject and everything else is consequential and secondary and introduced due to unbelief in new birth.

The problem is not unbelief but the natural state of man which calls for new birth. Unbelief in Christ merely makes the condemned natural state of man manifest.

The underlying cause for condemnation is not unbelief, but the fallen condition of man's heart which can only be remedied by new birth (v. 21). The underlying cause of condemnation is the inaiblity of the human heart to come to faith in Christ (vv. 19-20) which is due to the heart hating light and thus refusal to come to the light and loving darkness and that is the underlying cause for condemnation. However, the original cause for condemnation is neither unbelief or the depraved human condition but:

16 ... for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;\

This alone is the original cause for condemnation, not unbelief, not the fallen condition of the human heart which is the cause for unbelief, but the offence of one judgement came upon all men TO CONDEMNATION.

Exactly. Unbelief is a manifestation of condemnation. Not vice versa. @JonC seems to think unbelief brings condemnation. It’s cart before horse thinking.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Paul states that everyone knows that Christ existed....at least on some level. They are guilty. Do you deny the passage? That is what I want to know. Because if you can only accept passages that suit your theories then I do not see how a fruitful discussion can be had.

That said, as I said there is a difference between what must be known of Christ to be guilty of rejecting Him and what must be known to be saved.

They know the Godhead, but they don’t know the Son came as a man and died and rose again. This only comes from the Bible.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are confusing two very different thing (from my perspective).

I do not believe that a person has to be presented the gospel message in order to be guilty of rejecting God. So I believe that men are guilty regardless of whether or not they hear the gospel.

More than that, rejecting God is a SYMPTOM or superficial cause for condemnation but it is neither the underlying cause which is found in the condition of the fallen nature from birth or the original cause for condemnation, but the original cause for condemnation which is the root of the heart condition and unbelief is - for the judgment was by one to condemnation,.....Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

Jesus is dealing with the consequential cause of condemnation, rather than its underlying cause (Jn. 3:19-20) and root cause (Rom. 5). The new birth is the solution for all three as the new birth changes the nature introduced by the fall due to one man's sin which brought upon all men condemnation (not unbelief) which in turn is manifested as belief which is the manifest cause for justification (but which is not the underlying or root cause for justification).

 

[loDebar]

We are somewhat straying from the OP. I believe that John 3:18 in its context does not teach that the original cause for condemnation is unbelief. He is certainly teaching those in present unbelief are condemned already and that unbelief manifests that condemnation. But in context we must remember he is talking to Nicodemus and the original subject is the new birth (Jn. 3:3-11). The issue of belief is first introduced in verse 12 because Nicodemus did not believe in new birth (vv. 8-11). Faith in Christ is first introduced in verse 15.

However, we must remember that new birth is the primary subject and everything else is consequential and secondary and introduced due to unbelief in new birth.

The problem is not unbelief but the natural state of man which calls for new birth. Unbelief in Christ merely makes the condemned natural state of man manifest.

The underlying cause for condemnation is not unbelief, but the fallen condition of man's heart which can only be remedied by new birth (v. 21). The underlying cause of condemnation is the inaiblity of the human heart to come to faith in Christ (vv. 19-20) which is due to the heart hating light and thus refusal to come to the light and loving darkness and that is the underlying cause for condemnation. However, the original cause for condemnation is neither unbelief or the depraved human condition but:

16 ... for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;\

This alone is the original cause for condemnation, not unbelief, not the fallen condition of the human heart which is the cause for unbelief, but the offence of one judgement came upon all men TO CONDEMNATION.

You are right, it says we are condemned and we continue in condemnation because of unbelief

 

[loDebar]

That’s not what I said and not even remotely close.

Take Shaun in a remote area who never heard of the Christ. He is condemned already, condemned in Adam. He did nothing to earn this condemnation. If he dies before he hears the gospel, he dies lost. Why? He was a sinner who died in his sins, never knowing the way to the Father.

He was condemned before He Got here.
Creation is to redeem humans

 

[JonC]

They know the Godhead, but they don’t know the Son came as a man and died and rose again. This only comes from the Bible.

So you believe they are innocent of disbelief????

I think you would do well to reexamine Romans. Paul plainly (IMHO) establishes the guilt of "those who have not heard" on rejecting what is made known of God's nature and even the Godhead through those invisible things known in creation.

They are without excuse. There is no acrobatics you can do to get around the fact. Even Abraham (whose faith was credited as righteousness) did not know the details (that Christ would be crucified).

 

[JonC]

More than that, rejecting God is a SYMPTOM or superficial cause for condemnation

I agree. But I insist so is "sinful actions" or transgressions. They are symptoms of man being enslaved by sin (as a power, not an immoral action).

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you believe they are innocent of disbelief????

I think you would do well to reexamine Romans. Paul plainly (IMHO) establishes the guilt of "those who have not heard" on rejecting what is made known of God's nature and even the Godhead through those invisible things known in creation.

They are without excuse. There is no acrobatics you can do to get around the fact. Even Abraham (whose faith was credited as righteousness) did not know the details (that Christ would be crucified).

You are the one who needs to read Romans. Chapter 1 speaks to fallen man’s ruin state outside the Christ. They take what they know of God and attribute it to some sort of idol.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So you believe they are innocent of disbelief????

I think you would do well to reexamine Romans. Paul plainly (IMHO) establishes the guilt of "those who have not heard" on rejecting what is made known of God's nature and even the Godhead through those invisible things known in creation.

They are without excuse. There is no acrobatics you can do to get around the fact. Even Abraham (whose faith was credited as righteousness) did not know the details (that Christ would be crucified).

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1]

Here Paul is speaking about those who have never read the word of God, never had someone tell them about the Christ, they take the knowledge they have of God, and attribute it to some sort of idol.

 

[The Biblicist]

So you believe they are innocent of disbelief????

I think you would do well to reexamine Romans. Paul plainly (IMHO) establishes the guilt of "those who have not heard" on rejecting what is made known of God's nature and even the Godhead through those invisible things known in creation.

They are without excuse. There is no acrobatics you can do to get around the fact. Even Abraham (whose faith was credited as righteousness) did not know the details (that Christ would be crucified).

You are right that knowledge of the gospel is not necessary to be condemned and under the wrath of God.

They are "without excuse" because they 'hold down" or repress the truth revealed in nature and in conscience. God and his Godhead is revealed "to" them in nature and "in" them by conscience. I would argue that repressing what is "in" them preceds repressing what is revealed in nature as natural revelation requires additional ability to reason than does violation of conscience. I would argue that repressing conscience is violation of moral law or violating what their conscience reveals to be right and thus doing what their conscience deems to be wrong. The wrath of God is against them due to their willful rejection of the light revealed to them in nature and in conscience. With Jews that condemnation is increased as in addition to nature and conscience they have written revelation which they reject.

However, again all these are consequential to the root cause of condemnation which is -
for the judgment was by one to condemnation, Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

 

[MB]

That is why it says they were condemned(judged) already.

Your saying they were condemned because they sinned with Adam. Do you believe they were also condemned because of there own sins? You see I cannot grasp the idea of Adam falling from anywhere. The reason is Adam most certainly believed in God. Adam talked with God since Adam was a believer I find it hard to believe he was condemned. Believers just are not condemned because they are believers. Sure we all sin. I just don't see how you can believe that a believer is ever condemned.
.
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree. But I insist so is "sinful actions" or transgressions. They are symptoms of man being enslaved by sin (as a power, not an immoral action).

I fullly agree, but would add all of the above is symptomatic of the true source of condemnation -
And not as it was by one that sinned, therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

 

[JonC]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1]

Here Paul is speaking about those who have never read the word of God, never had someone tell them about the Christ, they take the knowledge they have of God, and attribute it to some sort of idol.

EXACTLY!

And what do they know - GOD'S ETERNAL POWER AND DIVINE NATURE. Do you reject that this means Christ himself is revealed in these invisible things so that all are guilty of rejecting God (Christ)? Or do you believe that Christ became God?

Scripture teaches that everything was created through and for Christ. Scripture teaches that Christ IS God. And Scripture teaches that all are guilty for rejecting God.

You can not reject that those who are guilty are guilty of rejecting Christ without rejecting that Christ is God or without rejecting Scripture. It is impossible.

 

[JonC]

I fullly agree, but would add all of the above is symptomatic of the true source of condemnation -
And not as it was by one that sinned, therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

I agree. It was by that one transgression that sin entered the world. But "sin" is not that "one transgression", it is more than that. It is the power of sin, or the "sin nature", that has enslaved mankind.

 

[loDebar]

I fullly agree, but would add all of the above is symptomatic of the true source of condemnation -
And not as it was by one that sinned, therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

See that goes back to being judged and condemned as a man
We were condemned before we were physical .
We are condemned spiritual beings . BEING human is necessary by the death of one man( God )many can be saved

 

[JonC]

Your saying they were condemned because they sinned with Adam. Do you believe they were also condemned because of there own sins? You see I cannot grasp the idea of Adam falling from anywhere. The reason is Adam most certainly believed in God. Adam talked with God since Adam was a believer I find it hard to believe he was condemned. Believers just are not condemned because they are believers. Sure we all sin. I just don't see how you can believe that a believer is ever condemned.
.
MB

It goes back to Scripture vs. Tradition. For some, tradition wins.

 

[SovereignGrace]

EXACTLY!

And what do they know - GOD'S ETERNAL POWER AND DIVINE NATURE. Do you reject that this means Christ himself is revealed in these invisible things so that all are guilty of rejecting God (Christ)? Or do you believe that Christ became God?

Scripture teaches that everything was created through and for Christ. Scripture teaches that Christ IS God. And Scripture teaches that all are guilty for rejecting God.

You can not reject that those who are guilty are guilty of rejecting Christ without rejecting that Christ is God or without rejecting Scripture. It is impossible.

They know there is God, but they know Him as Creator and not Saviour. YUGE difference. They don’t know the gospel of the Christ via natural revelation. Psalms 19 and Romans 1 speak about NR, not a gospel proclamation.

 

[loDebar]

It goes back to Scripture vs. Tradition. For some, tradition wins.

Mar 7:9