The point of intoxication

[standingfirminChrist]

Salvation is based on the Lord Jesus Christ, yes. I agree. But, the Word of God teaches us that the Lord chastens whom He loves. If one does not feel the chastening hand of the Lord in his or her life when one is clearly going against God's Word, is that one truly saved as that one may surmise?

God's Word says 'Look not thou upon the wine.' What do we do with that? It does not say when you begin to feel tipsy, when your head feels numb, when you begin to reel, don't look upon the wine. It says look not upon it, period.

How do you positively know that you are not deceived by the wine as Proverbs 20:1 says Wine and strong drink do? How do you know that the wine has not deceived you with just the first drink? After all, God does say wine is venom. Let me ask you, would you give your child poison?

Jesus said a man who loved His child would not give him a serpent (Luke 11). He went on to say His Father would give good things to His children. That which God calls venom of asps is not a good thing.

Christ would not give His children alcoholic wine.

 

[Lagardo]

God's Word says 'Look not thou upon the wine.' What do we do with that? It does not say when you begin to feel tipsy, when your head feels numb, when you begin to reel, don't look upon the wine. It says look not upon it, period.
Christ would not give His children alcoholic wine.

When I read that in Proverbs, I believe it is referring to someone who dwells on the wine, almost lusting after it. I have met such people, and you know there is a problem there.

I often look at the wine, in that it is in my eyesight, when I am at the grocery store...I don't think that is going against that scripture, is it?

We can read too much into these passages and wind up in quandry when we find that the Bible does reccomend wine for the stomache's sake. What then?

 

[Jack Matthews]

If you opt for the literal, verse by verse interpretation, quoting the verses out of their context and ignoring the principle that is being taught, you are going to have difficulty with this issue, especially when you get to those New Testament passages about taking a little wine for your stomach's sake, spoken by the Apostle Paul, or the passages where Jesus turned the water in to wine, from which there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it was just grape juice.

If you look at the question that was asked, stick to the answer. Problem is, I can't tell you where the point of intoxication comes, because, in following the Bible's clear, succinct instructions not to drink until drunk, I've never been as far as intoxication, and don't plan to go there.

 

[Lagardo]

We have strayed a bit from the OP.

In response to the OP, I do not drink because I always found that my discernment for where that line is diminishes as I drink. In other words, no matter where that line might be, I tend to cross it.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

We have strayed a bit from the OP.

In response to the OP, I do not drink because I always found that my discernment for where that line is diminishes as I drink. In other words, no matter where that line might be, I tend to cross it.

Ah, so you admit that the wine deceives then as Solomon said.

If it deceives you, it deceives everyone else... because that is the nature of alcoholic wine. Even after the very first swallow the deception has started.

Actually, it was before the first swallow. It deceived you to thinking there is nothing wrong with just a little.

 

[tinytim]

I used to be a drunk for about 9 months... I never could stand the taste of beer, but I loved vodka....

If I were to taste alcohol again, I am afraid it would hook me.
There are a lot out there like me... Thet is one reason I am against the use of real wine in communion. Too much temptation.

Is it wrong?... It is for me...
Is it wrong for others... I dont have to answer for them. I have to answer for me... and I know what it will do to me.

This is one of those questions where there are great Christians on both sides of the table. I would be sitting on the conservative side.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Find anything on that drink in Colosse yet?

 

[tinytim]

not yet, still looking... everything I have found references alcohol, and meat given to Idols...

One of the references was back to this verse
Romans 14:21
(21) [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Why would a brother be offended over wine if it was only grape juice?

Here is John Gill's take on it:
in meat or in drink; or on account of not observing the laws and rules about meats and drinks, in the law of Moses; such as related to the difference between clean and unclean creatures, to abstinence in Nazarites from wine and strong drink, and which forbid drinking out of an uncovered vessel, and which was not clean; hence the washing of cups, &c. religiously observed by the Pharisees. There was no distinction of meats and drinks before the law, but all sorts of herbs and animals, without limitation, were given to be food for men; by the ceremonial law a difference was made between them, some were allowed, and others were forbidden; which law stood only in meats and drinks, and such like things, but is now abolished; for the kingdom of God, or the Gospel dispensation, does not lie in the observance of such outward things, but in internal ones, in righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost; it is not any thing that goes into the man that defiles, nor is anything in its own nature common or unclean, but every creature of God is good, so be it, it be used in moderation and with thankfulness:

Sounds like Gill would have supported a moderation application..

 

[DHK]

I really don't care to be so blunt, but I endeavor to answer in kind, to a point.

Sure. He loves us all. Why do you question His Word. Why don't you ask God to explain it to you. The above is true, but it offends you. We are to believe and not question His ways. All I know is what His Word says. Do you doubt He said He only came for His lost sheep of Israel, and not the heathen dogs? "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs", Matthew 15:26. Go to Him in prayer for understanding.Did I say that, or did I repeat what Jesus said of the Gentile woman while He was on earth? Take your unbelief to Him Christian friend. You accuse falsely.

I haven't accused you falsely of anything. You made a statement which is not only theologically incorrect, but as far as I am concerned borders on heresy. Here it is:

God chose the Hebrew to make His nation from Abraham and Sarah through Isaac, and Jacob. He chose Israel and tells us He came for no one else but them.

"He came for no one else but them" That is false; total error. As I pointed out; he came for the Ninevehites, for Rahab, for Ruth. In fact in the OT he came so that Israel might be a shining light to all the world. He came for the world. God is not willing that any should persih. That was just as true in the OT as it is now in the NT. Any thing less than that is to put it tactfully "gross theological error."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


I am not offended by what I wrote, if you are quoting me. I don't doubt or question God's Word I believe it. I am not the one that needs God to explain it to me, as I already know what I believe and why I believe it. Like many cults you have taken one verse (Mat. 15:26) and seem to have hung all your thelogy on that verse. Is this what Reformed theology does? Is that what you believe?
You have a favorite verse and base all your theology on just that one verse? That's kind of like the J.W.'s who take that verse in Isaiah "Ye are my witnesses saith Jehovah," and then start building their theology from there. They neither know Jehovah, nor are his witnesses.

But I'm happy you brought up Jonah. I know you wish to "exhort" in love just as I, so I'll do so here. You show lack of depth and understanding in this post and quite blatant in your distain for me, and understanding His Word . You have been listening to man for your understanding. You as most believe every thing has been the same since the beginning. To understand YOUR salvation YOU must understand the gospel of Paul which is the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven for we today. Time for a short Sunday school lesson, from the Bible on the Book of Jonah.

I will disregard your remark about the gospel of Paul. There is but one gospel--the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It was preached by Paul and all the other apostles including Peter before Paul was even saved. The gospel was preached on the day of Pentecost and 3,000 were saved. Philip preached Christ (the gospel) to the Ethiopian eunuch, and he was saved. There is only one gospel, and it is not Paul's Gospel. It is the gospel of Christ; it is Christ crucified. Paul said that if you or anyone else bring any other gospel you are accursed. Read Gal.1

We are to realize we have no way of knowing what is said in the OT until it is later revealed. We must understand the crucifixion of Jesus Christ (events before He is placed in the earth, while in the earth, the resurrection, and things thereafter). We must understand Pentecost and its duration. And we can understand nothing of our justification through faith, or the Body of Christ; and also the "rapture" our "circumcision and baptism without hands" without believing the gospel of Paul. We know nothing of OUR salvation today until we began at Acts 9 then into the Epistles of Paul.

\
What you say is only partly true.
It is true that hindsight is always better than foresight.
It is true that now we have the completed Word of God, it makes our knowledge of spiritual things more complete, and since the invention of both the priniting press and an ever growing technology since then we have no excuse not to study the Scriptures compared to the first century Christians who had the Scriptures painstakingly copied out on large scrolls, that were not made as readily available to the common person as the Bible is to us today.
However, even with all those disadvantages the Bereans were able to check up on the things that Paul preached. Philip led the Ethiopian to the Lord; Paul led the jailor to the Lord--with very little Scripture; Peter led Cornelius to the Lord. Stephen preached one of the greatest sermons recorded in the Bible. The gospel in its entirety is preached by Stephen. And Paul wasn't even saved then. There is no such thing as "Paul's Gospel." Paul doesn't not have any divine claim on the gospel. The gospel comes from the Lord, verified in the Word of God.

Jonah is the book of "resurrection". The people that make the Catholic Easter and Christmas their Holy Days, do not understand the resurrection as God wishes. Easter cannot be found in Scripture, nor can Christmas. Where can we find these errors in scripture? We can't. All Christ asked is that we "remember Him in One way", with the bread and the cup in our one faith, hope, body, Spirit, and baptism.

This is all seemingly irrelevant, though I agree with you about Easter and Christmas.

The purpose of this story of Jonah, a real happening, is that Jesus Christ was in the earth for three full nights and three full days. Friday could not have been the day Christ Jesus was crucified. Friday could not have been the day of the "preparation".

Perhaps you could start a thread on the topic: "On which day did Christ die?" It would be interesting. I have heard arguments for Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.
DHK

 

[DHK]

But laying that aside for the moment another purpose of the greatest of importance in Jonah is to show Israel will refuse Messiah, and after the resurrection (three days and three nights) Jesus Christ would see the Gentile would receive and believe His Word. The gospel of grace through faith would not be thwarted, or spoiled.

One cannot read too much into the OT storeis lest the allegorize away the entire Old Testament. That is the danger of allegorization. I am not in favor of it. You can believe what you want here. You could come to the conclusion that because Jonah was spouted out of a whale it means that he came out of a spaceship. He was an alien from outerspace. Sound reasonable. You can do anything you want with allegorization. So, no I don't believe you at this point in your allegorical story, or your allegorization of a simple historical story of Jonah and the whale. Jesus made the point the needed to be made.
"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so also shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Israel refused Messiah forcing the Cross, and continued for a year after Pentecost, bringing on the event of Damascus Road a few years later. Don't read the Book of Jonah as just a nice little story about a man and a big fish. Look and you will see Israel rejecting Messiah.

Sorry, I reject your outlandish allegories. I'd rather believe that Jonah came from Mars. It makes just as much sense.

Don't read the Epistles of Paul, and Acts 9, without understanding that the Book of Jonah speaks to mysteries, which God has unveiled.

Don't worry I won't. I am not a sucker for punishment of the mind.

Do you see what I see and the Bible divided correctly for understanding? The Book of Jonah shows God was thinking of the Gentile then, just as you say. And they did believe Jonah's message in that day. But please notice that great Gentile city of Nineveh was completely destroyed by God some good number of years afterwards.

Here you have it part right. The Book of Jonah does show that God was interested in the Gentiles and not just in the Hebrew nation, as you erroneously claimed before. Israel was also judged. Judah in 586, and northern Israel in 722, albeit a remnant was spared for David's sake. Because of their continued rejection the nation again was destroyed in 70 A.D., then scattered all over the world, and did not become a nation again until recently in 1948.

I believe what His Word will allow and all through the Bible we see God dealing with His creation. But we have to keep things in perspective. We must believe what we are told to believe "while we live", and not deny what He tells us of the past, or of the future.

True, I am not the one denying Scripture. Some people however, look at Scripture through rose colored glasses, only from one point of view. In other words their mind is made up before they even read it.

Is there any way in the world we can see the "mysteries" of God before there time. So many say justification has always been the same from the beginning. Don't you believe it.

Why not? Abrahm was justified by faith long before he was circumcisd. Read Rom. 4. Justification by faith is a major theme of the entire Bible--OT and NT. Circumcision has nothing to do with it.

The uncircumcised are justified through faith. This is the gospel of grace in which Christ chose Paul to present to the World, giving we Gentiles the authority to carry this gospel of grace through faith to all today. We are to be divorced from that gospel of justification by faith (with works) required of all since the beginning - Hebrews 11.

Your theology is very confused at this point. There is only one gospel. Those who do not believe so are accursed. Read Gal. 1.

Don't forget to notice Tarshish and the gourd in Jonah. Tarshish the Gentile city was before Jonah. Paul had papers in hand and probably within sight of the Gentile City of Damascus. This killer, Gestapo leader was rounding up members of the Jewish Pentecostal church to take back for judgments by those of the Sanhedrin. Acts 9:5, "………. it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Just pure coincidence of these two little items? You can see you are barking up the wrong tree thinking I believe God didn't love the "heathen" also. We are to know all were Gentiles before His began His own nation, in that we know He loves us all.

Again I don't by into your allegorization which is now leading into the direction of gnosticism.

The mysteries in this little Book of Jonah were not revealed to us until God was ready. Enter Christ Jesus from heaven as He chooses His Apostle to the Gentile, and also the Jew for today. The "secret" of God remains still hidden from many today, even those that "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation" as found in Acts 16:28-31.

So these "mysteries" were revealed to you. That, my friend, is pure gnosticism. And it is a heresy.
DHK

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

tinytim,

I have been studying that Colossians 2:16 and when taken in context (along with 2:11 - 2:23), Paul is not speaking of a specific kind of food, nor a specific kind of drink. He is speaking of the act of eating and drinking itself. Some outside the church at Colosse (possibly pastored by Philemon's son), were passing judgment on the Colossian church for keeping the Jewish festivals. Paul was telling them to obey God and not to worry about the men outside the church that were judging them.

When looking at the Old Testament, the many verses that speak of alcoholic beverages bringing a curse, it would not make sense to say that the drink mentioned here would be alcoholic as it was a festival ordained of God.

 

[John of Japan]

We've just had a very tragic incident here in Japan that illustrates how very important this thread is. A 22-year-old young man crashed his car on a bridge into the back of a family 4WD with the parents and three little kids in it (up to age six), going home from a family outing. The family car was shoved through the railing into the river, drowing all three children, in spite of the parents' and others' efforts to save them.:tear:

The young man had been drinking and "karaoke" singing for two hours before the incident. He obviously did not think he was impaired enough that he shouldn't drive, since he was traveling with a friend at a high rate of speed.

If someone is reading this who can't answer the OP, you are in extreme danger of killing someone and wrecking your own life. In addition to the Bible quotes on this thread, note what Shakespeare said about alcohol in Othello: "O God, that men should put an enemy in their mouths to steal away their brains! That we should, with joy, pleasance, revel, and applause, transform ourselves into beasts!"

 

[Lagardo]

Ah, so you admit that the wine deceives then as Solomon said.

If it deceives you, it deceives everyone else... because that is the nature of alcoholic wine. Even after the very first swallow the deception has started.

Actually, it was before the first swallow. It deceived you to thinking there is nothing wrong with just a little.

I have not admitted anything different than I did in my first post on this thread. But, no, this does not mean that someone else would have the same expereince with alcohol. I have met many people who have no problem knowing where the line is and not going past it.

 

[SoulWinningLady]

tinytim,

I have been studying that Colossians 2:16 and when taken in context (along with 2:11 - 2:23), Paul is not speaking of a specific kind of food, nor a specific kind of drink. He is speaking of the act of eating and drinking itself. Some outside the church at Colosse (possibly pastored by Philemon's son), were passing judgment on the Colossian church for keeping the Jewish festivals. Paul was telling them to obey God and not to worry about the men outside the church that were judging them.

When looking at the Old Testament, the many verses that speak of alcoholic beverages bringing a curse, it would not make sense to say that the drink mentioned here would be alcoholic as it was a festival ordained of God.

He is right. THis verse is in regards to the cerimonal laws of the Jews.
Here is what I found in my commentarys

As the distinction of meats and drinks and the observation of the new moons were confessedly ceremonial; so was also the Jewish sabbath, which with the rest was equally cancelled by Christ as a part of the handwriting of ordinances; so that to observe the Jewish sabbath, or to condemn the Christian for not observing it, is as much a denial, that Christ is come in the flesh as to observe circumcision, or any other part of the ceremonial law.

Verse 16. Therefore - Seeing these things are so. Let none judge you - That is, regard none who judge you. In meat or drink - For not observing the ceremonial law in these or any other particulars. Or in respect of a yearly feast, the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths.

Col 2:16. Judge you in meat, &c.; condemn you on account of any thing relating to these outward ceremonies.--Sabbath days; the various sacred days of the Jews

Col 2:16
Judge you; pronounce you good or bad, according to your treatment of the ceremonial law. A holy-day--sabbath-days; in the original, a festival--sabbaths. The days referred to are those required to be observed in the ceremonial law--days associated by God with meats, drinks, and new moons. The passage does not refer to the Sabbath of the moral law, associated with the commands forbidding theft, murder, and adultery. This weekly Sabbath was never against men or contrary to them, but was always for them, and promotive of their highest good. The observance of it caused them to ride upon the high places of the earth, and to possess the heritage of God's people. Isa 58:13-14; Jer 17:21-27.

You cannot take this verse and apply it to drinking alchol in moderation unless you can tell me a feast or a cerimony that the Jews had that included fermented alchol. If someone does happen to find that, which I doubt they will, you would only be able to eat those meats and drink those drinks during the ceremony, not whenever you want.

 

[webdog]

Brother, we normally agree on quite a bit, but not on this...

Alcohol has broken up more homes, killed more mother's sons and daughters and husbands than all the wars and everything else. I find it hard for Christians to uphold the use of alcohol. Alcohol is a tool of the devil.

Is it the alcohol that has broken up the homes and lives...or the misuse of it? I can argue the same thing about automobiles. If alcohol is a "tool of the devil"...does that make cars a "tool of the devil" too? Guns? Food?

I ask you? How could you possibly worship God with your mind messed up with acohol?

By "mind messed up with alcohol" I'm assuming you are referring to drunkeness. I agree that you cannot worship God while drunk in the same way you cannot worship God while having an affair. Drunkeness is sin. Alcohol consumption is not.

At our church if you want to use acohol then when you are finished you can come back and be baptized and we will accept you back.

This is nothing more than shoving personal convictions down the throats of others...biblical "bullying". With a comment like this, I would not be welcome at your church...neither would Christ, as it's very clear from Luke 7:33-35 that Christ DID drink wine.

 

[webdog]

You cannot take this verse and apply it to drinking alchol in moderation unless you can tell me a feast or a cerimony that the Jews had that included fermented alchol.

The Passover

 

[Helen]

I agree REX, I just wish that the other folks who believe its ok to drink wine would just tell me where they draw the line.

Read most of the thread and went back to the beginning.

1. Wine is FAR less poisonous than most medications, especially those used for muscle relaxation. However, 4-6 ounces and a hot shower are the best, not any more and not a cold shower!

2. It WAS definitely alcoholic wine at Passover, which is in the spring, as there was no fresh grape juice available; and the moment grape juice is pressed it begins to ferment (that's what Welch made so much money -- he figured a way to keep the taste and stop the fermentation).

3. It is alcoholic wine which is prescribed by Paul for Timothy, and current science has finally caught up with the Bible. Most stomach ulcers are caused by bacteria, which the alcohol in the wine weakens/kills. Other alcoholic beverages are capable of doing this, but only wine has the flavenoids which promote healing and reduce scar tissue.

I never have more than one glass (4 ounces about) of wine at a time, and only have that a couple of times a month. There is no flush, no buzz, no nothing. Why do I have it? Because I think it is good with steaks and some meals. I never have it alone, but only when friends are over and only if they would like some wine. Then I don't want to make them feel awkward because we won't have any. My husband does not drink but does not see anything wrong with my enormous wine intake of one or two glasses a month!

I did get drunk once in college, acting like an idiot. That is a far cry from my consumption now. But I guess I had better figure on not attending some of your churches if my husband and I are speaking in your area!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Passover

Scripture does not say it was alcohol at the passover. As a matter of fact, Jesus used the word 'wine' in ohter passages. At the Last Supper, Jesus used the term 'fruit of the vine'.

Alcoholic wine cannot be read into the Passover.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Brother, we normally agree on quite a bit, but not on this...

Is it the alcohol that has broken up the homes and lives...or the misuse of it? I can argue the same thing about automobiles. If alcohol is a "tool of the devil"...does that make cars a "tool of the devil" too? Guns? Food?

By "mind messed up with alcohol" I'm assuming you are referring to drunkeness. I agree that you cannot worship God while drunk in the same way you cannot worship God while having an affair. Drunkeness is sin. Alcohol consumption is not.

This is nothing more than shoving personal convictions down the throats of others...biblical "bullying". With a comment like this, I would not be welcome at your church...neither would Christ, as it's very clear from Luke 7:33-35 that Christ DID drink wine.

Jesus did not drink alcholic wine. This has been proven Scripturally over and over.

 

[webdog]

Scripture does not say it was alcohol at the passover. As a matter of fact, Jesus used the word 'wine' in ohter passages. At the Last Supper, Jesus used the term 'fruit of the vine'.

Alcoholic wine cannot be read into the Passover.

Knowledge of vineyards and the act of wine making (Christ had a vast knowledge of this) does tell us it's alcoholic.