The point of intoxication

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=213

"Notice in verse 10 the comment that men usually served the good wine first and kept the wine that was not as good to be served lastly so that its quality was not noticed. This had to be a reference to fermented wine, as the alcoholic content of the wine would be more inclined to cause them not to notice bad wine later in the evening after they had a few drinks.

There are many other references to wine throughout the Bible showing that it is actually an alcoholic drink. Now with this scriptural evidence, comes the next question. Is it sinful to drink wine? The answer to this question is that the wine itself is not sinful, because sin is in the heart of man and does not exist in any object of itself. It is the drunkenness and intoxication that comes about when a man drinks too much that causes him sin. The Bible teaches discipline and moderation; even eating too much food is a sin and is called the sin of gluttony in the Bible. "

Again, since God's Word tells us in Proverbs 23 to refrain from it, you are calling God's Word a lie by saying it is not sinful to drink.

 

[Gina B]

DHK:
The old English word "wine" translated from the Hebrew yayin, and the Greek oinos, all have the same meaning.

Gina: Strong's dictionary shows us that the word yayin comes from the root "to effervesce", meaning to ferment. Being as there are plenty of other words for unfermented grape juice, it seems highly strange that they would not be used, but one that means fermented juice would be.


DHK: The only way to tell whether wine is alcoholic is by the context. Noah got drunk. Obviously it was fermented wine. The context is very clear on that. But it is not so clear in the passage describing the wedding of Cana. In fact I believe the evidence points that the "wine" (oinos) means grape juice in that passage not fermented wine. There are too many contradictory passages for Christ to have had made alcoholic beverages at such an event. He doesn't go against his word.

Gina: That's pretty much saying that it's up for personal interpretation, with no solid evidence one way or the other.
I agree that God doesn't go against his own word, but I'm not seeing any contradiction. The Word tells us not to drink ourselves into idiocy. It also says that wine is a gift.

DHK: The elements of the Lord Table are another example.
How could a beverage that is fermented or representative of corruption represent the uncorrupt sinless body of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Gina: Because alcohol cleanses and purifies. When you look back to mixing water and wine, this was done because it killed the bad bacteria in the water so that one did not become ill from it.

Remember, leaven is also said to be a sign of corruption, yet in John 6:35 Christ said that he is the bread of life. The word used in that passage speaks of leavened bread.

Clearly, Christ didn't have a problem equated himself with the cleansing properties of wine or the qualities of bread that save one from death by starvation. A little leaven does what? That can be good or bad.

Context is important, but isn't it true that context in scripture often compares identical things?

Leavened bread is good.
Leavened bread is bad.

Wine is good.
Wine is bad.

God is good.
god is bad.

The rock is good.
Their rock is bad.

This sacrifice is good.
That sacrifice is bad.

Obedience to God is good.
Obedience to Satan is bad.

Tobacco is good. (made for healing)
Tobacco is bad. (harms the body)

Food is good.
Food is bad.

There is practically nothing on this earth or that man can create with the brains God gave him that doesn't have an opposite use.
All can be good, all can be bad.

We are cautioned about the major good things that are bad when misused. (alcohol, food, sex)

But...to deny a gift of God because of misuse is probably not very good at all.

BTW, if you total up my alcohol consumption over the last five years, I've have a total of two full drinks. I've had one half of a serving of wine on four occasions.
On all four occasions I was becoming ill. On all four occasions the wine cleansed my system within six hours. (how do I know? Sent me right to the potty and I could tell)

I'm basically against the use of alcohol for ANYTHING other than illness. However, I keep that personal and try not to judge others who do otherwise and have an occasional drink socially. I don't think they're wrong for doing what I don't do, because I do not have anything other than a personal reason for disliking it when people drink. It brings up bad memories of what other people did while drunk, and what I would do when I did drink wrongly.

But I have to separate that from scripture.

Now, what really really bothers me is that people will come on a thread like this and make it sound as if those who refuse to state that all drinking is wrong are advocating drinking, or making it sound glamorous, or are being willful and sinful if they ever consume it.

Drinking half a serving of wine instead of taking a pain pill can't be any different, less wrong or less right. Sitting on the toilet expelling germs from your body is neither glamorous or giving in to fleshly temptation, (a little wine for your stomach's sake certainly works...I never drank grape juice and had that result) unless one wants to state it is wrong to attempt to ease physical suffering. I know some people do. (and I don't agree with that either...too many doctors and healings going on in scripture to believe someone is a hero if they don't try to keep their bodies functional)

 

[Gina B]

I have already given Historical quotes and quotes from Rabbinical priests to show you err in that statement, Corndoggy. Not all wine was fermented in Bible times. And certainly not the wine our Lord made.

You, just like the Pharisees, who were blind guides and hypocrites, are acciusing Christ of being something He could never have been and accusing Him of creating something He could never have created.

You've already lost most of your credibility by making silly statements and not answering certain questions, so you may as well quit attacking other people on top of it.

There are others on here not resorting to such things, and we'd like to keep it that way. There's no reason to be nasty, we're all grown up, ok?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The silliest statement of all is to say God's Word allows you do drink alcoholic beverage.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

You've already lost most of your credibility by making silly statements and not answering certain questions, so you may as well quit attacking other people on top of it.

There are others on here not resorting to such things, and we'd like to keep it that way. There's no reason to be nasty, we're all grown up, ok?

I care not about my credibility with you or anyone else. Just because you don't accept sound biblical doctrine, nor historical, medical and scientific facts, does not mean the Bible is wrong.

The Word of God clearly teaches abstinence. Try reading it with your mind on the things of the Spirit instead of the lies of the world.

 

[Helen]

Standing Firm, it is quite clear you did not read the post I linked. Not only that, you are totally taking my own words out of context. The wine was prescribed along with a hot shower to stop false labor. However Scott will be 33 this year, so that time is rather long past. As far as the 1/3 vodka goes, that was part of a cough syrup which we had to make up in order to keep Scott away from all coal tar derivatives when he was young. 1/3 honey, 1/3 lemon juice, 1/3 vodka. One spoonful was enough to stop him from coughing and relax that tired throat when he was sick. You make it sound like we were boozing him up, and I resent your misuse of my words.

Nor am I holding any bottle. Excuse me, I am. A bottle of water as I was just out shoveling some sand and I am thirsty...

Or should I forego that water, too, and drink only from the water of life?

You wrote "Yes, even their grapes are poison"...and that is what I was talking about, first. THEIR grapes. Who are THEY? They, very clearly in Deut. 32, are the enemies of God. Clearly it is not the grapes, nor the wine, of those who love God which are poison, by implication and comparison. Yes, THEY, and their vines will be destroyed. WE will not, nor will our vines. However, I think you will find, when you read the Song of Moses, that it is not wine which is being spoken of at all. Remember, that is a song, a poem, and there is a good deal of idiom in it. Let Bible explain Bible, please, instead of some of you taking such verses so wildly out of context.

Nor do those of us who have an occasional glass of wine have some sort of 'fleshly lust for drunkeness.' There is about as much 'fleshly lust for drunkeness' there as there is gluttony in a man who eats a simple meal. Get real, please.

Yes, you are right about Solomon's warnings to his son.

Let's take a look at some other verses, OK? Let's let Bible explain Bible (for a change):

2 Samuel 16:2 -- The king asked Ziba, "Why have you brought these?"
Ziba answered, "The donkeys are for the king's household to ride on, the bread and fruit are for the men to eat, and the wine is to refresh those who become exhausted in the desert."
The word for wine there is the same stuff Noah got drunk on.

Psalm 104: 14-15 -- He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate --
bringing forth food from the earth:
wine that gladdens the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine,
and bread that sustains his heart.
Again, the same word is used for wine there as the stuff Noah got drunk on and the same stuff Solomon warns about.

Solomon's words are interesting. He explains himself a little in Ecclesiastes. First he talks about the fact that he tried to cheer himself with wine, in Eccl. 2:3.

Now goes to Ecclesiastes 10, starting at verse 16:
Woe to you, O land whose king was a servant
and whose princes feast in the morning.

Blessed are you, O land whose king is of noble birth
and whose princes eat at a proper time --
for strength and not for drunkenness.

In other words, here eating is including drinking wine and it should be done for strength, at the proper time, and not for drunkeness. The comparison is clear in these verses.

In the Song of Solomon we find many positive references to wine:
1:2 -- ...your love is more delightful than wine.
1:4 -- ...we will praise your love more than wine.
4:10 -- ...How much more pleasing is your love than wine,...
5:1 -- I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride;
I have gathered my myrrh with my spice.
I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey;
I have drunk my wine and my milk
7:9 -- ...and your mouth like the best wine
8:2 -- I would give you spiced wine to drink, the nectar of my pomegranates.

each time the word for wine in the above is the same that got Noah drunk.

from the Lord Himself in Isaiah 55:1 -- "come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost."

Is this fermented wine? Look at MIcah 6:15, when the Lord is angry with Israel:

"You will plant but not harvest;
you will press olives but not use the oil on yourselves,
you will crush grapes but not drink the wine."

If it were grape juice, they could have drunk it immediately without anyone to stop them. But wine takes time, just like between the planting and the harvesting, just like the pressing of olives and the refining of the oil from the pressing. The crushed grapes needed time for fermentation to become wine.

Zephaniah 1:13 repeats this warning/prophecy.

Please note the prophecy in Zechariah 10:7, with the note regarding the effect of wine:
"The Ephraimites will become like mighty men,
and their hearts will be glad as with wine.
Their children will see it and by joyful;
their hearts will rejoice in the Lord."

So verses can be found on each 'side'. However there are not two sides when it is recognized that wine is, indeed, a gift from God for the gladness of heart and for rest for those in anguish (Proverbs 31:6). Its abuse, however, is strongly warned against and there are definite people (Nazarites and kings and other rulers) who are to refrain from wine and times when it is not to be taken. It has a time and a place and is blessed by the Lord at those times, in those places, and in the right amounts. That is what is biblical.

Again, the actual meaning of the verse so often taken out of context by those who say all wine is evil can be found at the beginning of this thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33072

 

[Gina B]

I have read it that way, and don't appreciate being verbally attacked by you and told that I haven't and am not, putting me on the side of Satan when I am striving to live for Christ and study these things out as He has told us to do.

What you are accusing me of is very serious and very wrong.

 

[Helen]

Note: Gina was not talking to me but to the poster above mine!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Once you take that drink of alcohol, trillions of potent molecules surge through your blood stream and into your brain. Once there, they set off a cascade of chemical and electrical events, a kind of neurological chain reaction that ricochets around the skull and rearranges the interior reality of the mind. These molecules elevate the levels of dopamine, which are associated with the feelings of pleasure and elation. Dopamine can be elevated by a hug, a kiss, a word of praise or a winning hand in cards, as well as the potent pleasure that comes from drugs.
{"Addicted," Time magazine, May 5, 1997}

A controlled study of Navy pilots showed that flying after drinking can be dangerous for at least 14 hours. Although there was no measured alcohol in their bodies, they performed worse on the same tests they took before drinking.{Harvard Medical School Mental Health Letter, Nov. 1987}

Research shows that alcohol adversely affects the brain. Statistically significant decreases in test performance have been found for people whose self-reported alcohol consumption was in the range of what was considered social drinking.
{"Alcohol Alert," Alcohol and Cognition, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, May 1989}

One or two drinks of alcohol impair mental and physical abilities. Mental processes such as restraint, awareness, concentration and judgment are affected, reaction time is slowed and there is a resulting inability to perform complicated tasks.
{"The effects of alcohol and other drugs," Motorcycle Safety Foundation, Irvine CA, 1991}

Relatively small amounts of alcohol impair processes in your brain that would normally detect errors in performance and help you instigate adjustments.
{Nutrition Hints, "Alcohol and error performance," Hint #1020, Betty Kamen, PhD, and Dr. Michael Rosenbaum, MD Source: Science 2002, scienceexpress.org}

The brain is the organ most sensitive to alcohol, and it receives less oxygen when alcohol is present, which adds to the feeling of fatigue. Alcohol has a depressant effect on the central nervous system and when this depressant is removed (cease drinking alcohol) there is a ‘rebound’ of sensitivity to stimuli.
{Duke University Web site, August 2000}

Alcohol is very harmful, even in moderate doses.

In the words of Paul, 'If they will be ignorant, let them be ignorant.

 

[corndogggy]

God's Word tells us in Proverbs 23 to refrain from it...

You are simply stretching what was written:


Proverbs 23:20 - Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.


I think that's pretty self explanatory...

Proverbs 23:
29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?

30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!

32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.

33 Your eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things.

34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.

35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!
They beat me, but I don't feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?"


I think it's pretty obvious that these verses are talking about drunkenness, not very moderate drinking. If you want to say that moderate drinking could potentially lead to this point, I might value your opinion a little better, but any rational person should be able to see that these verses that you are hung up on simply does not tell you to totally abstain from any alcohol whatsoever.


Proverbs 23:2 also says "put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony", but most people just skip right over that. Wonder why...

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I am so glad you posted verse 20. It further proves the Christain is not to have anything at all to do with alcohol.

The medical facts I posted above state that alcohol is a depressant and brings on drowsiness even after one drink.

Lines up with the Word of God. If one drink can bring on drowsiness, then one drink makes a person drunk.

Leave it alone as God's Word says.

 

[Gina B]

Lines up with the Word of God. If one drink can bring on drowsiness, then one drink makes a person drunk.

In that case, so does eating turkey. Woe to ye olde pilgrims, who brought this iniquity on us and have embroiled us in the vain tradition of Thanksgiving gobblers. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Helen]

I quoted enormous amounts about wine from the Bible and exegeted that part of Deut. 32 from which you gather wine is poison (http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33072). Yet you have only relied on men's research and your opinions rather than answer me with anything from the Word of God or even regarding what I posted about what the Bible said.

I wonder why that is?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

You've already lost most of your credibility by making silly statements and not answering certain questions, so you may as well quit attacking other people on top of it.

There are others on here not resorting to such things, and we'd like to keep it that way. There's no reason to be nasty, we're all grown up, ok?

I do not see anything wrong with that statement. I see the fact that many are accusing the Lord Jesus Christ of being an alcoholic beverage drinker, just as the hypocritical and blind guides they called the Pharisees.

A true Child of God should be offended when the Lord is accused of drinking alcoholic beverage. And if they aren't offended, but rather state that He did do such things and endorses alcohol in the life of a Believer, then they are preaching another christ. One different than that which the Word of God says was Sinless, Spotless, and Sober.

 

[corndogggy]

I am so glad you posted verse 20. It further proves the Christain is not to have anything at all to do with alcohol.

With that logic, you should also be able to look at that verse and believe that we should not have anything to do with meat. Your logic is pretty silly. Both the wine and meat consumption referenced in that verse is strictly limited to overconsumption... drinking too much and eating too much. You're just trying to say that by your definition, one drop is too much, and it simply never says that.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

your logic is total idiocy. as was pointed out by DHK, we need food to survive. We do not need alcohol.

 

[corndogggy]

A true Child of God should be offended when the Lord is accused of drinking alcoholic beverage.

The only reason you believe otherwise is due to the word of some old Jewish rabbi that isn't in the Bible and nobody else has heard of.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Regardless how you twist and turn the Scripture to fit your misconception that the Christian is to enjoy alcohol, verse 23 clearly states the opposite.

It does not say drink the alcohol until you begin to get tipsy. It does not say enjoy a glass of alcohol. It clearly says Look not thou upon it.

There is no getting around it. Alcohol is alcohol before you drink it. The Word of God says leave it alone.

I notice Solomon did not say, look not on the meat when it is cooked, when its aroma is pleasant to the taste. No, the context clearly shows he was warning do not drink alcohol at all.

 

[corndogggy]

we need food to survive. We do not need alcohol.

Wine is a type of food, it has nutritional qualities and nutritional benefits. It just happens to be that too much of it can hurt you, but so can beef and fried chicken. You can take any single type of food item that you can imagine (except water) and say that you don't "need" it, including wine.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The only reason you believe otherwise is due to the word of some old Jewish rabbi that isn't in the Bible and nobody else has heard of.

No, I believe what I do because it is written in the Word of God.