The Pre-incarnate Christ

[Hobie]

Jesus was never the archangel Michael!

Well, lets look at what we find in the Bible, here is from my buddy Bob R....'First it must be noted that infinite God has a number of names and roles.

In the case of God the Son -- he is the "Son of man" in Daniel 7 and often in the Gospels.
He is also the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53
Unto us is given ... "the Prince of Peace" Isaiah 9
He is called our "High Priest" Hebrews 8:1
Creator of heaven and earth in John 1 and in Colossians 1 (And Heb 11:1)
He is the incarnate God in the Gospels

God the Holy Spirit - appears in the form of a dove at the baptism of Christ - but surely God is not "a dove".

God the Holy Spirit - appears as tongues of fire in Acts 2 - but surely God is not a fiery hot gas in the shape of tongues -- it is merely an appearance He takes for a specific purpose.

Michael as leader of the armies of heaven is another name and role that God the Son takes

God takes on the appearance "of a man" in Genesis 18 along with 2 angels.

The..link you point to -- says this.

"There is another verse in Daniel 8:25 where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned. Again, the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. "Prince of princes" is actually the same term that is translated "prince of the host" in verse 11. This is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince" (Daniel 9:25)."

In that quote he says that "God of gods", 'Lord of Lords", "King of Kings" is also known as Michael. I don't know of any Mormon or JW that claims that about Michael because they all say that such titles are titles for almighty God - and they reject Michael as being almighty God.

SDAs by contrast - do claim that God the Son - is almighty God and another name for him is Michael. Just as in Genesis 18 "three MEN" show up -- and later we are told that one is YHWH and the other two are really angels. There is no question but that God has the ability to appear in that form if He so chooses but that does not mean that God is a "mere man".
..text says "Michael and HIS angels" - Rev 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.

It is Christ (God the Son) and Satan that are at war against each other. And the angels are with them either on the side of God the Son or the side of the dragon.

Hebrews -
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Angels "of God" are the Angels identified as being the Angels of Michael.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Dan 10:21 21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book

Heb 8:1
Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

 

[Hobie]

Michael is just another "Title" to refer to Jesus just as Lamb and Lion is. Michael is not a created Angel. Michael the Archangel is only a name or title, but it shows us that Christ has always been there with the Father implementing the plan of salvation.

Here is some more insight from a few friends on this issue, here is post from Amo...
'This belief did not originate with the SDA church. Nor are they the only ones who make this connection.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in #Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairns BD). John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, #1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in #Da 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in #Re 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742).( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)'

and as to evidence of Michael the Prince creating the universe as Christ the Creator, here are some verses that make the connection....

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:25 (KJV)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: Dan 12:1 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)

In many places in the Old Testament it refers to the evelasting attribute of God, we see this with Abraham when he called upon the Lord.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

God is constantly refered to and His protection, and law, along with His existence is shown as eternal.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Proverbs 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Then we see how the prophecy of Christ as the Messiah describe Him as everlasting and points to His existence from eternity past.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And many verses confirm the everlasting God as the Creator.

Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding

Then prophecy states that Messiah would come from Bethlehem, and He is described as He "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

 

[Hobie]

So lets take a look at this text:

Joshua 5:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

In Joshua 5:13-15, we read of a man whom Joshua meets near Jericho. The man identified Himself as "captain of the host of the LORD." He accepted Joshua's worship, and told Joshua to remove his shoes because he was on holy ground, just as Moses had to do when the Angel of the LORD spoke to him from the burning bush. This demonstrates the deity of the Captain, which leads us to the conclusion that this is another preincarnate appearance of Christ. Then we have the "Prince of the Host" in Daniel:

Daniel 8:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Here is some commentary on this..."
Doctor Slotki, in his Commentary on Daniel, shows the term "Prince of princes" (Dan. 8:25) to be the same as the "prince of the host" of verse 11. And in commenting on these two expressions, the Cambridge Bible says, "i.e. God." But this "Prince of princes," or "prince of the host," is also referred to as Michael. Daniel 10:21 tells of "Michael your prince," and Daniel 12:1 of Michael, "the great prince." But this Prince is also the Messiah, for we read of "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25. Others agree. Joseph Parker states:

Michael was known amongst the ancient Jews as the angel or prince who had special charge of the nation of Israel. The very best Jewish writers concur in teaching that the name "Michael" is the same as the title "Messiah." it is held by them that the few passages in which be is referred to can be most satisfactorily explained on this supposition. The man speaking in the text was "a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz. His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude" (vers. 5, 6). This is the dazzling and nameless personage that has appealed to the religious imagination through all the known centuries of time. One day—not one of earth's cold, grey days, but a day of brighter cast—we shall see that Personage, and name him, and thank him for the tender veiling of a light that might have struck creation blind.—The People's Bible, vol. 16, p. 438."...Christ, and Michel the Archangel q08.htm

 

[Hobie]

The Angel of the Lord was indeed preincarnate Christ, but was NOT Michael!

Why one but not the other, you need to go by Gods Word, not what someone told you or mans tradition or ideas or flowery phrases..

 

[Hobie]

Based on what?
BTW Baptist preacher John Gill thought so, see his commentary on Jude 1:9.

It is resisted by some who seem to have other agendas in the definition and origin on this, in my opinion.

 

[37818]

The Angel of the Lord in OT spoke as God Himself, Michael never did, as he would not rebuke satan but appeal to the Lord to do that!

That turns into a silly and worst arguement in light of the fact the Angel of the LORD is called the LORD Himself use the very same words, Zechariah 3:1-2.

 

[37818]

Michael was always said to be an Angel, arch one, never the Angel of the Lord!

There is only one arch that is the first angel. The uncreated Angel of the LORD is prior to all.

 

[37818]

It is resisted by some who seem to have other agendas in the definition and origin on this, in my opinion.

I have long held that the Acrhangel Michael is not the preincarnate Son of God. But I am not opposed to that understand that the Archangel is the eternal Son of God. "Who is Like God."

 

[1689Dave]

Here's a historic Church statement on Christ. Notice, he is one divine person with two natures. One human and the other divine. We often mistake saying he is fully man and fully God but this assigns to him, two persons instead of one.

THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON


The Symbol of Chalcedon, adopted at the fourth and fifth sessions of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, dates back to 451 A.D.. Philip Schaff, in his Creeds of Christendom, writes of the Symbol (or Creed) of Chalcedon, “While the first Council of Nicaea had established the eternal, pre-existent Godhead of Christ, the Symbol of the Fourth Ecumenical Council relates to the incarnate Logos, as he walked upon earth and sits on the right hand of the Father. It is directed against the errors of Nestorius and Eutyches, who agreed with the Nicene Creed as opposed to Arianism, but put the Godhead of Christ in a false relation to his humanity.”3



We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.


Historic Creeds and Confessions. (1997). (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Lexham Press.

 

[37818]

We often mistake saying he is fully man and fully God but this assigns to him, two persons instead of one.

No. He has always been one Person who has always been both "with" the God, John 1:1-2 and "was God," John 1:1, John 1:3 and John 1:10. The only thing that changed when He became fully a man, John 1:14 is how He was "with" the God. The Son never ceased being God too.

 

[1689Dave]

No. He has always been one Person who has always been both "with" the God, John 1:1-2 and "was God," John 1:1, John 1:3 and John 1:10. The only thing that changed when He became fully a man, John 1:14 is how He was "with" the God. The Son never ceased being God too.

Fully human is a different Christ not supported by scripture. It means Christ was multiple personalities = two people in one body = crazy. The creeds nailed it and any departure from them makes you a heretic according to the whole Church.

 

[37818]

Fully human is a different Christ not supported by scripture. It means Christ was multiple personalities = . . .

So according to you am I to understand Jesus was never really a man, 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[JonC]

Fully human is a different Christ not supported by scripture. It means Christ was multiple personalities = two people in one body = crazy. The creeds nailed it and any departure from them makes you a heretic according to the whole Church.

Dave,

For clarification, are you saying Christ was, as a man, less than fully human?

I ask because Scripture repeatedly confirms orthodox Christianity in its insistence that Christ us fully human and fully God.

I am not sure if you are making some point about "persons" (I have seen no indication of a member hinting that Christ is two persons.... or personalities) or if you have denied Christian doctrine. I am simply trying to understand where you stand here.

John

 

[Hobie]

Here's a historic Church statement on Christ. Notice, he is one divine person with two natures. One human and the other divine. We often mistake saying he is fully man and fully God but this assigns to him, two persons instead of one.

THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON


The Symbol of Chalcedon, adopted at the fourth and fifth sessions of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, dates back to 451 A.D.. Philip Schaff, in his Creeds of Christendom, writes of the Symbol (or Creed) of Chalcedon, “While the first Council of Nicaea had established the eternal, pre-existent Godhead of Christ, the Symbol of the Fourth Ecumenical Council relates to the incarnate Logos, as he walked upon earth and sits on the right hand of the Father. It is directed against the errors of Nestorius and Eutyches, who agreed with the Nicene Creed as opposed to Arianism, but put the Godhead of Christ in a false relation to his humanity.”3



We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.


Historic Creeds and Confessions. (1997). (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Lexham Press.

No, He was fully God and fully man, this is the mystery of God, hard for us to grasp. But He had to prove that sin could be overcome as a man, or there would have been no point in His sacrifice or even in the suffering He went through, and the temptation would have all been a charade.
Lets get to scripture and see what it says.

1. Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2. Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
3. Luke 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

If Christ could not sin, then there was nothing He could do to prove Satan wrong when he came in the flesh, as temptation was not possible. Then we have the following:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So Christ was justified, just as we are justified, and He went through the same process that we must go through in this. I am amazed that Jesus could be flesh like us while still wholly divine, and go through the exact same trials, tribulations, temptations and even be justified, just like every man and women. Christ truly is our Saviour and example, and we need to focus on Jesus, His life, the process He went through, His triumph over sin and temptation..

And more from my buddy OnDL...
'However Jesus was fully divine, yet fully human at the same time in the same being. While the divinity could not have sinned, the humanity was fully capable.

When Jesus was tempted, He did not use His own divine power, He relied on the power of the Father.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

It was the Father who delivered Him from temptation so He did not sin, not by His own. His own human nature was fully capable of sinning. Notice the following verse.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Though He was the Son of God, He had to learn obedience from the things He suffered ...."

Hebrews 2:14-18
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

It shows that He chose to set aside His divinity to be made like us, and truly go through what we suffer, not just a charade of pretend.

 

[1689Dave]

So according to you am I to understand Jesus was never really a man, 1 Timothy 2:5.

It says he had a fully human nature and a fully divine nature but one person (God).
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, ‘Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, but a body hast thou prepared me:” Hebrews 10:5 (NCPB)

 

[1689Dave]

No, He was fully God and fully man, this is the mystery of God, hard for us to grasp. But He had to prove that sin could be overcome as a man, or there would have been no point in His sacrifice or even in the suffering He went through, and the temptation would have all been a charade.
Lets get to scripture and see what it says.

1. Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2. Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
3. Luke 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

If Christ could not sin, then there was nothing He could do to prove Satan wrong when he came in the flesh, as temptation was not possible. Then we have the following:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So Christ was justified, just as we are justified, and He went through the same process that we must go through in this. I am amazed that Jesus could be flesh like us while still wholly divine, and go through the exact same trials, tribulations, temptations and even be justified, just like every man and women. Christ truly is our Saviour and example, and we need to focus on Jesus, His life, the process He went through, His triumph over sin and temptation..

And more from my buddy OnDL...
'However Jesus was fully divine, yet fully human at the same time in the same being. While the divinity could not have sinned, the humanity was fully capable.

When Jesus was tempted, He did not use His own divine power, He relied on the power of the Father.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

It was the Father who delivered Him from temptation so He did not sin, not by His own. His own human nature was fully capable of sinning. Notice the following verse.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Though He was the Son of God, He had to learn obedience from the things He suffered ...."

Hebrews 2:14-18
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

It shows that He chose to set aside His divinity to be made like us, and truly go through what we suffer, not just a charade of pretend.

= two persons = Nestorianism = heresy.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,

For clarification, are you saying Christ was, as a man, less than fully human?

I ask because Scripture repeatedly confirms orthodox Christianity in its insistence that Christ us fully human and fully God.

I am not sure if you are making some point about "persons" (I have seen no indication of a member hinting that Christ is two persons.... or personalities) or if you have denied Christian doctrine. I am simply trying to understand where you stand here.

John

The creeds say he is one divine person (God) with two natures. One Human and one divine.
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, ‘Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, but a body hast thou prepared me:” Hebrews 10:5 (NCPB)

 

[1689Dave]

So according to you am I to understand Jesus was never really a man, 1 Timothy 2:5.

He is eternal God with human nature and divine nature.
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, ‘Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, but a body hast thou prepared me:” Hebrews 10:5 (NCPB)

 

[1689Dave]

No. He has always been one Person who has always been both "with" the God, John 1:1-2 and "was God," John 1:1, John 1:3 and John 1:10. The only thing that changed when He became fully a man, John 1:14 is how He was "with" the God. The Son never ceased being God too.

If you think he had two persons, one human and one divine you end up in Nestorianism condemned a couple of times as heresy. He is One Person (God) with to natures. One fully human and the other fully divine.

 

[Hobie]

I have long held that the Acrhangel Michael is not the preincarnate Son of God. But I am not opposed to that understand that the Archangel is the eternal Son of God. "Who is Like God."

Well lets look into that, we have ''archangel'' the Greek "ἀρχάγγελος" literally "chief angel" which appears twice in the New Testament in the phrase "with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16} and in relation to "Michael" the ''archangel'' (Jude 9). The corresponding Hebrew word in the Old Testament is found in two places as in "Michael, one of the ''chief princes' '(Dan 10:13) and in "Michael" the ''great prince''(Daniel 12:1). Now we see that Jesus is the 'Angel of the Lord' and clearly is the great I AM, so now lets look at Michael the Archangel.

Now lets look closer in the verse in Jude.

(Jude 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

In verse 4 and 8 Jude denounced false prophets who crept into the church, claiming to be messengers of Christ, which he tells us,“ "denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." and "despise dominions".” That is to say, they despise the fact that God is God, despise and refuse to bow to Christ the Lord. It appears he is talking about the Gnostic sects who were sowing confusion even at this time about the diety of Christ.

Jude then goes on in verse 9 to show Christ pre-incarnate who as Michael shows up in the Bible in direct conflict with Satan.

But we see more when we look at Zechariah 3:

(Zechariah 3:1-5) And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.(2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?(3) Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.(4) And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.(5) And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Here, he stands before the Lord God and yet Joshua is here said to be “standing before the "Angel of the Lord”". In verse 3 we read, “"Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments", and stood before the Lord.”— In verse 5 Zechariah says,“and the "Angel of the Lord stood by".”

The Angel of the Lord standing by is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now, he is not one of the angelic hosts that he created. He is called “the Angel of the Lord,” because he is Jehovah’s Messenger, the Angel of the covenant.

The One who is called,“the Angel of the Lord” in verse 1, is Jehovah himself. We know that because he is called,“the Lord”(Jehovah) in verse 2. This Man who is God, the Angel of the Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, is our almighty Advocate and effectual Intercessor (Heb. 7:24-27; 1 John 2:1-2).

Notice that again he says the same words as Christ "And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan"

Joshua said nothing. Joshua did nothing. He stood in silence before the Angel of the Lord; and the Lord pleaded his cause, and he definitely shows the Angel as “one who is God”.(Micah 7:8-9, 18-20).

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also Michael the archangel, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

Its clear that Jude is quoting from Zechariah 3:2. "And the Lord said to Satan,'the Lord rebuke you".
Zechariah and Jude have both the Lord and Michael the archangel say the exact same thing, "the lord rebuke you".. This identifies both beings for us...

Now lets look at the relevant text in Daniel:

(Daniel 10:13)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

(Daniel 10:20-21)
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Now Daniel was told by the angel Gabriel that here the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me. Now I have to go back and fight the guardian angel of Persia. After that the guardian angel of Greece will appear. There is no one to help me except Michael, Israel's guardian angel. He is responsible for helping and defending me.

Later Daniel refers to him as 'the great prince' Daniel 12:1 and as we see in Jude he is called 'the archangel' when he disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. It is the voice of the archangel, this title given to Michael, who is associated with the raising of the dead at the 2nd coming. "There will be the shout of command, the archangel's voice, the sound of God's trumpet, and the Lord himself will come down from heaven. Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

The relationship between the resurrection and Michael is reinforced in Daniel when, 'at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:' many of those who have already died will live again. Daniel 12:1,2

But scripture tells us that it is Christ's voice that will raise the dead. 'The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life' the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves.

(John 5:25-29)
"25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Again we see the connection as to who is Michael the Archangel 'One who is like God'