I believe I broke a rule and wasn't very Christlike with this statement. For that, I apologize
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The pre-wrath rapture view
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
No problem brother, we Calvinists expect the 'nons' to act like this so it's normal...lol!!!!!!!!!!! RoflmaoRoflmaoRoflmaoRoflmaoRoflmaoLaughLaughLaughI believe I broke a rule and wasn't very Christlike with this statement. For that, I apologize
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Yes, Romans 7:18.
What is sin?
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--Every sin is a transgression of the law; God's law. It is not of God, therefore it is of the_______
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
--A plain and straightforward statement, unless you consider your self perfect. In that case you have a problem with 1John 1:8,10
To the Pharisees he said:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--Now I know you have this funny unorthodox idea that when one is saved the old nature, the sin nature is eradicated. That is not true. If it were true you would no longer sin. Your lives would be as perfect as Christ's was when he walked this earth, but it isn't. You fail. You sin. That is even evidenced by some of the posts on this board that contain mocking and name-calling. They too are sinful. Christ would not talk that way.
Sin is of the devil. Sin has not been eradicated. It comes from that old nature, that sin nature which is of the devil.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
It is of the lust of the flesh, self. Self is sinful.
I see the personal assault is already on! The accusations. The presuppositions. The arrogance. The 'you don't believe the Bible' accusations. This always comes from you brother. Wonder why? Must be 'the devil', couldn't be from you!
Fair enough. Every person is solely responsible for their sin.
No, actually you don't know. That's another false assumption on your part.
You're incorrect again and still falsely accusing.
I'm hip! That's what I've been saying!
Yep. And likewise.
You do the above yourself. Often. Falsely accuse. Misrepresent. Mock. Taunt. All falsely. You've even done it in this thread and in the post I am responding to.
Ever consider your own sin?
Yep. You've proven this to be true.
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Let's go to that verse.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
--If it is not of the Father, it is of the devil, obviously. Here it uses the word "world."
What does God think of the world?
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--A friend of the world is the enemy of God--plain and simple. IOW, he puts himself on the devil's side.
James is writing to believers here. Note the context. You can read it for yourself. He is speaking of prayer.
Where is the personal assault? Whose name did I mention?
All sin is "of the devil." That statement is in the Word of God. Deal with it!
Yes they are. So was Eve, in the garden of Eden, and yet Adam bore the responsibility. Why?
Eve was deceived. By whom? By Satan. The same holds true today. You can be deceived by Satan. He is the "accuser of the brethren who accuses us day and night." "He walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." Peter wrote that to believers. And then he wrote: "Whom resist steadfast in the faith. But many don't. They give in to the wiles of the devil. They sin.
It is not an assumption. Or do you deny the depravity of man? Do you have a sin nature or not.
Or have you been entirely sanctified? I didn't know you were a Wesleyan that took on Finneyism?
That is the implication of your answer. He is the one that propagated that one could be sinless. He tried to make a community of believers free of sin. Are you like that? Or do you sin? What causes you to sin?
Who am I falsely accusing? I am stating my beliefs based on my theology.
See my answer above.
Is it? Then you agree with Icon on this issue, do you? Because that is who it was originally addressed to, though it was you that quoted Romans 7:18.
I have never denied that I sin. Others believe that the sin nature has been eradicated. Ask Icon.
Again, I don't say that I am above everyone else. I freely admit my sin. But others here don't. They believe the sin nature is eradicated and they cannot sin. It is an arrogant position to take.
Every day.
I know. But others don't believe it. Why?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Even a common fool can see the dialog above is nothing but deceitful, twisting of statements of others and bearing false witness from dhk, a moderator on this forum.
You show a profound misunderstanding of sin. When a person sins, at least the saved persons I know of, these realize the sin is theirs and don't blame it on 'the devil'. Not only is your honor amiss in that you twist and misrepresent what others have said, so is your theology. But it's OK, it's not your fault, the devil made you do it.
You show a profound misunderstanding of sin. When a person sins, at least the saved persons I know of, these realize the sin is theirs and don't blame it on 'the devil'. Not only is your honor amiss in that you twist and misrepresent what others have said, so is your theology. But it's OK, it's not your fault, the devil made you do it.
1. When you have no answer for the message you attack the messenger. That is what is done here.
2. My being a moderator has nothing to do with my right or ability to post. That is just a mark against you as another ad hominem.
3. My telling the truth is obviously not of the devil.
4. Eve, being made perfect, in her innocent state, was deceived by Satan and thus sinned. How do you account for that? All sin is of the devil.
5. 1 John 2:15,16 "sin is not of the Father.. but is of...." What? Obviously the devil.
All sin is of the devil You haven't read all of the first epistle of John yet, Either that or you don't believe it. Which is it?
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:12,13
What has been brought to light. What is the light of the kingdom? What is our inheritance and have we presently inherited or are we just presently heirs, What will we inherit when we have inherited the kingdom of God?
but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings; 2 Tim 1:10 (by the gospel of the kingdom of God) Eternal life, incorruptible is the light of our inheritance.
Incorruptible eternal life is what we will have when we inherit and enter the kingdom of God.
We were children of darkness and now we are children of light. When we inherit the kingdom of God, we will inherit what the gospel brought to light, 1 Cor 15:50,53
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
That is our hope by which we are saved yet which we presently do not and cannot see yet why would we hope for it. Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
What is it V23? The redemption of the body.
If we were in the kingdom of God we would already possess what we will receive at his appearing and his kingdom. When----------And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:15 Which I believe will be the day of trumpets and ten days later Satan will be removed and chained for a thousand years, so he cannot deceive the nations for one thousand years.
BTW I believe we receive the redemption of the body, post wrath.
What has been brought to light. What is the light of the kingdom? What is our inheritance and have we presently inherited or are we just presently heirs, What will we inherit when we have inherited the kingdom of God?
but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings; 2 Tim 1:10 (by the gospel of the kingdom of God) Eternal life, incorruptible is the light of our inheritance.
Incorruptible eternal life is what we will have when we inherit and enter the kingdom of God.
We were children of darkness and now we are children of light. When we inherit the kingdom of God, we will inherit what the gospel brought to light, 1 Cor 15:50,53
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
That is our hope by which we are saved yet which we presently do not and cannot see yet why would we hope for it. Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
What is it V23? The redemption of the body.
If we were in the kingdom of God we would already possess what we will receive at his appearing and his kingdom. When----------And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:15 Which I believe will be the day of trumpets and ten days later Satan will be removed and chained for a thousand years, so he cannot deceive the nations for one thousand years.
BTW I believe we receive the redemption of the body, post wrath.
"Internet Theologian,
Yes sadly this has happened again.....right here; we see many examples of this.
Dhk says;
Here are some questions you ask Internet Theologian-
!
.
Yes sadly this has happened again.....right here; we see many examples of this.
Dhk says;
lets look....since you asked DHK-
Here are some questions you ask Internet Theologian-
"DHK,
1
this is what you do...not him.He showed what you did.
He did not question if you could post...he said stop twisting everyones words.
4. Eve, being made perfect, in her innocent state, was deceived by Satan and thus sinned. How do you account for that? All sin is of the devil.
5. 1 John 2:15,16 "sin is not of the Father.. but is of...." What? Obviously the devil.
All sin is of the devil You haven't read all of the first epistle of John yet, Either that or you don't believe it. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
James does not say..."all sin is of the devil"
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
1
this is what you do...not him.He showed what you did.
He did not question if you could post...he said stop twisting everyones words.
we are waiting for you to be truthful....
4. Eve, being made perfect, in her innocent state, was deceived by Satan and thus sinned. How do you account for that? All sin is of the devil.
5. 1 John 2:15,16 "sin is not of the Father.. but is of...." What? Obviously the devil.
All sin is of the devil You haven't read all of the first epistle of John yet, Either that or you don't believe it. Which is it?[/QUOTE]
James does not say..."all sin is of the devil"
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Icon,
This is for you:
Joey Hoelscher once wrote:
Haters, did you know, that questions need not be limited to the function of acquiring new information?
Haters, did you know, that especially in non-conversational speech, questions often have rhetorical functions other than the mere gaining of knowledge?
Did you know that the term "rhetorical question" itself describes questions to which the answer may be obvious, and the question is being posed for another reason, such as to highlight or recast information?
And when you read this little message, you affirmed all three?
Haters, did you know?
This is for you:
Joey Hoelscher once wrote:
Haters, did you know, that questions need not be limited to the function of acquiring new information?
Haters, did you know, that especially in non-conversational speech, questions often have rhetorical functions other than the mere gaining of knowledge?
Did you know that the term "rhetorical question" itself describes questions to which the answer may be obvious, and the question is being posed for another reason, such as to highlight or recast information?
And when you read this little message, you affirmed all three?
Haters, did you know?
Do the blind lead the blind?
Go back and read the post. Then go to any page and read the rules of the forum.
One might say that to kick around the name "moderator" as a football, with no respect for the position or the person, but rather just contempt, then it is an attack; it is wrong; it is sin. Who showed who?
I don't twist words. I quote them word for word and then give an answer. Your problem is that you don't like the answer I give, and typically, like now, you complain about it.
Again, when you don't like the message you attack the messenger. This time you are trying to berate me, put me into my position, right?
Demonstrate where I have not been truthful; where I have been lying before making ugly accusations.
--And have you given an honest answer to this yet? No.
I didn't say he did. But John certainly does. That is what I said and that is why I said you need to read the First Epistle of John! Have you read it yet? All of it?
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
--Why does John say that? Why? Because all sin is of the devil.
Who was Eve enticed by?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Thanks Iconoclast, it is clearly seen that he lied about my beliefs and casts things against me claiming I believe things I've never addressed or stated.
Here is just one of his false accusations:
He just makes things up as he goes, blatantly lies, and he gets by with doing this since he's a moderator. This board has shown its standard by allowing this to go on unchecked.
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How many times should we have to do this?
Cals do not deny depravity of man,
Cals do not deny the trinity,
Cals do not follow Finney,
Cals do not follow Oberlin theology,
Cals do not believe in sinless perfection
Cals do not follow jw,
Cals do not follow Origen,
So stop trying to insinuate any such garbage....Stop it...STOP NOW, STOP TODAY,
If you cannot refrain yourself from such dishonesty that just disrupts the threads....just observe and learn..
Here is one example of what is meant by your not being honest....
In any thread where sanctification is being discussed, you mix up the terms and words intentionally.
In Romans 6...Paul says our old MAN is Dead...
You mention the old man, but then mix in the words,
Old nature,sin nature,flesh,old life,body of flesh as if it is all one thing...you tangle the words together when the scripture keeps each in its own place.....
It us then that you mix in your accusations and claim you have "answered"
And yet Icon I can pull passage after passage where you have said that the "old man is dead;" that that old nature (sin nature) has been crucified." To me, in my understanding, that is a denial of the depravity of man. Nowhere does it teach that only the unsaved are depraved or have a depraved nature.
In fact the Bible specifically says:
"We wait for the redemption of our bodies.
Never said otherwise.
If you deny that the believer has a depraved nature, that the old nature is crucified and dead, you are not far off from Finney and his Oberlin Theology.
A denial of the sin nature would automatically lead one to a sinless life. And in this conversation you deny that Satan is the god of this world, and has no influence over the world. You live in the millennial kingdom, as it were. Why shouldn't you be sinless. You should be able to make that claim shouldn't you?
I didn't say they did.
I didn't say they did.
I am not the one that needs to learn here. Another poster simply made the observation, posting: "They are dull of hearing." That was in response to what you had posted.
Our old man is dead. That is positional. And yet he is very much alive. That is practical. If he is not alive then you don't have to wait like the rest of us for the redemption of your body. You already have one. That old man, that old nature, that sin nature still abides within you. You struggle with it every day. It will never be eradicated. In Romans 6 it is only a picture, not a reality. It is a picture of our resurrection with Christ as well but we have not yet left this world have we?
If so, show where?
First I never made anything up. I responded to a quote. You had quoted me word for word. And in your quotation of me you were the one that was inaccurate. Perhaps you are the one that should apologize.
If I am making things up where am I making them up from. Give a URL. Show me an exact quote.
The Bible has much to say about false accusations.
We are 16 pages and this has gone off topic.
The topic of this thread is:
The pre-wrath rapture view
Let's stick to that topic. However, before we do I want to summarize a few things about sin in general.
1. Our Responsibility:
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--Whether good or bad we will all give account of ourselves before God. We must hold ourselves responsible. We cannot latch on to the excuse: "the devil made me do it," or any other such excuse.
2. Our Motive:
What was Eve's motive in sinning?
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
a. she saw, and it was pleasant to the eyes--the lust of the eyes.
b. she saw the tree was good...and to be desired--the lust of the flesh.
c. she took the fruit and gave to her husband--the pride of life.
Eve was not charged with sin but it was Adam. Why? Because Eve was deceived. Satan had deceived Eve. Though she was wrong in her disobedience she was deceived by the Great Deceiver. He still operates that way today, even among believers. (1Pet. 5:8,9)
3. Sin is a transgression of the law.
4. Just as no man can keep the law perfectly no man can go through life perfectly.
5. Satan, is one of the main causes of our sin.
--He is the accuser of the brethren who accuses us day and night.
--He walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
--He is the god of this world; the prince of the power of the air.
6. Even that the greatest of angels in heaven respect the power and authority of Satan.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
7. We may have won the war at the cross, but there are many battles yet to fight while we await our final destination on this earth. Let us not be swallowed up in one of Satan's devices while waiting.
In the armour given in Eph.6:11-18, there is no room for retreat. Every part of the body is covered except the back. God expects us either to stand and maintain our ground, or go on the offensive and fight. We are not to retreat.
8. Those who think there are no battles with Satan are deceived.
The command is given: "Whom resist steadfast in the faith."
9. Satan is a person. He is a fallen angel. Though not omnipresent, he is ubiquitious, meaning it seems as if he is everywhere at all times. That is because of the army of demons he has behind him. In his rebellion he took one third of the angels with him, who are all demons today, all who are in rebellion today, trying to keep believers from having victory in their lives. Victory is not automatic. It must be fought for.
The topic of this thread is:
The pre-wrath rapture view
Let's stick to that topic. However, before we do I want to summarize a few things about sin in general.
1. Our Responsibility:
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--Whether good or bad we will all give account of ourselves before God. We must hold ourselves responsible. We cannot latch on to the excuse: "the devil made me do it," or any other such excuse.
2. Our Motive:
What was Eve's motive in sinning?
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
a. she saw, and it was pleasant to the eyes--the lust of the eyes.
b. she saw the tree was good...and to be desired--the lust of the flesh.
c. she took the fruit and gave to her husband--the pride of life.
Eve was not charged with sin but it was Adam. Why? Because Eve was deceived. Satan had deceived Eve. Though she was wrong in her disobedience she was deceived by the Great Deceiver. He still operates that way today, even among believers. (1Pet. 5:8,9)
3. Sin is a transgression of the law.
4. Just as no man can keep the law perfectly no man can go through life perfectly.
5. Satan, is one of the main causes of our sin.
--He is the accuser of the brethren who accuses us day and night.
--He walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
--He is the god of this world; the prince of the power of the air.
6. Even that the greatest of angels in heaven respect the power and authority of Satan.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
7. We may have won the war at the cross, but there are many battles yet to fight while we await our final destination on this earth. Let us not be swallowed up in one of Satan's devices while waiting.
In the armour given in Eph.6:11-18, there is no room for retreat. Every part of the body is covered except the back. God expects us either to stand and maintain our ground, or go on the offensive and fight. We are not to retreat.
8. Those who think there are no battles with Satan are deceived.
The command is given: "Whom resist steadfast in the faith."
9. Satan is a person. He is a fallen angel. Though not omnipresent, he is ubiquitious, meaning it seems as if he is everywhere at all times. That is because of the army of demons he has behind him. In his rebellion he took one third of the angels with him, who are all demons today, all who are in rebellion today, trying to keep believers from having victory in their lives. Victory is not automatic. It must be fought for.
In a thread like this, there needs to be a big "pause" button.
There are accusations in some posts that are without foundation, and that some have pushed an icon of support or dislike shows the lack of integrity some (imo) bring to the discussion. Again (imo) some would rather cling to loyalty rather than charity, and some would read with determined dishonesty rather than with purposed integrity.
Folks, in heated posts, rarely is the reader of each side not looking for some and any claim that can be placed at the opponents door. So even the slightest misstep or embellishment becomes a matter of stumbling into over stated judgements.
There is not a long term poster on the BB that has agreed with everything I post. Big deal!
There is this condition of the BB that has long existed. Loyalty is more important than truth.
Well, I have to write, that I am greatly disappointed that folks "like" and "agree" and find "funny" and would declare "dumb" some posts, rather than grieving that the excess of this thread was hurting the testimony of Christ.
It is shameful that the folks who both engaged in the excess and encouraged the behavior of excess on this thread would be so blinded by greed and agenda that the truth of Scriptures was destroyed by lack of peace.
Such is NOT the work of the Holy Spirit.
This thread topic is important. It is foundational to growth.
Unfortunately, some posters and peanut gallery contributions lack maturity, and desire disharmony rather than integrity.
There are accusations in some posts that are without foundation, and that some have pushed an icon of support or dislike shows the lack of integrity some (imo) bring to the discussion. Again (imo) some would rather cling to loyalty rather than charity, and some would read with determined dishonesty rather than with purposed integrity.
Folks, in heated posts, rarely is the reader of each side not looking for some and any claim that can be placed at the opponents door. So even the slightest misstep or embellishment becomes a matter of stumbling into over stated judgements.
There is not a long term poster on the BB that has agreed with everything I post. Big deal!
There is this condition of the BB that has long existed. Loyalty is more important than truth.
Well, I have to write, that I am greatly disappointed that folks "like" and "agree" and find "funny" and would declare "dumb" some posts, rather than grieving that the excess of this thread was hurting the testimony of Christ.
It is shameful that the folks who both engaged in the excess and encouraged the behavior of excess on this thread would be so blinded by greed and agenda that the truth of Scriptures was destroyed by lack of peace.
Such is NOT the work of the Holy Spirit.
This thread topic is important. It is foundational to growth.
Unfortunately, some posters and peanut gallery contributions lack maturity, and desire disharmony rather than integrity.
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