The pre-wrath rapture view

[JonShaff]

I know, and it is among us, like right now, but not fully.

How so? Talk to me about your day in the Kingdom (That's not a heavenly/Spiritual Perspective).

 

[Iconoclast]

No, you believe his prayer was fruitless; that it was redundant; a waste of time for Jesus.
Your belief is that they were already translated into the kingdom of his dear son, so his prayer wasn't answered at all. It was just meaningless words.

I said very clearly I believe Jesus prayer was answered. But true to form you insert yourself and start to try to tell me what I think what I say rather than look at what I say and read it and understand it

 

[Internet Theologian]

How so? Talk to me about your day in the Kingdom (That's not a heavenly/Spiritual Perspective).

We're doing it right now. Do you see how the parable of the sower shows that, or are you still reluctant to admit that when Jesus described that is what the kingdom is described as, that He meant it, and that we see it happening now? Or is that parable of the sower just a future thing, so we should just preach about it in a futuristic construct?

 

[Internet Theologian]

I said very clearly I believe Jesus prayer was answered. But true to form you insert yourself and start to try to tell me what I think what I say rather than look at what I say and read it and understand it

I expected better behavior from a moderator but you are correct. Typically he goes 'to the man' in addressing their responses.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Nope, i know the Kingdom of God is (Observable) in Heaven and in the Hearts of His People.

Brother, you're only telling half the story here. You certainly are looking for an observable Kingdom. Are we not all? Are we not awaiting the culmination of all things?

 

[JonShaff]

Brother, you're only telling half the story here. You certainly are looking for an observable Kingdom. Are we not all? Are we not awaiting the culmination of all things?

I'm looking for my Savior Jesus Christ to Come. I'm living as a pilgrim and an ambassador. My allegiance is to His Majesty, not to this world.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[Iconoclast]

CONTEXT:

2Co 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

The context is the believers at Corinth. Again and again the first person plural is "we," indicating Paul and the believers at Corinth. It is "our" gospel that is hid to the lost.
But in this world that both they and we happen to live Satan is the god of this world.
We live in this world though we are not of this world. How do you get around this fact?

Vs 3.......them that are lost
Vs4....blinded the minds of them that believe not

Believers are not lost
Believers are not described as them that believe not then they wouldn't be believers.
That is what Paul is addressing here those who are lost and the reason they are lost.
He is not addressing the condition of Christians

 

[Rippon]

Your beloved Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine and the RCC lies. It is obvious.

What do Calvin and Augustine have to do with the subject-at-hand?

Do yourself a favor and read the actual works of Calvin before uttering foolish remarks about him.

Augustine is despised almost as much as Calvin in some Fundamentalist circles. Those 'circles' are quite provincial. It's best for you to broaden your horizons.

 

[JonShaff]

Another Microcosm (or shadow) Would be When the Jews Were Under Babylonian rule and The People of God were living in a foreign land. We can see Nebuchadnezzar (satan) having dominion (although God truly rules over him) and the Israelites being ambassadors to a foreign land. They were put there to be the Light of the World (Ultimately this was how God was going to receive Glory and the gentiles would know of it, also we know it was part of God's judgment), they lived in a kingdom that was dark, but they Belonged to the Kingdom of Light.

 

[Iconoclast]

How so? Talk to me about your day in the Kingdom (That's not a heavenly/Spiritual Perspective).

Now this is one of the best posts on this thread. this is exactly what we should be about day by day!
To begin to answer I will start by taking some of your recent comments;

I have 3 children and a wife to disciple, not to mention Work brothers and sisters and a congregation full of people.

We are to worship God and have Him and His word ruling all of our conduct. You mention
here some of your daily responsibilities

You are to be a Godly Man, a Godly husband, a Godly father ....
You are to serve God in his gathered assembly on the Lords day and other stated meetings of the church.
You are to obey the 30 one another passages in the Nt....love one another, exhort one another, etc.
This is fully inline with what the Ot prophets present as the good news of the kingdom.

This is for starters....look even before the cross what we are told;
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

A heavenly reign, and that is precisely why Christ SENT ambassadors into a FOREIGN LAND

Yes...an ambassador Proclaims the message to the King. He declares what the king requires, what are the terms. So we are to do this.
We are to occupy in every sphere of life.....as a holy nation a nation of kings and priests reigning with Jesus.

there are many more such things that can be gleaned from the OT law , as well as the Nt epistles.
we do not just throw our hands up and say"satan rules" I am helpless, cannot wait for the rapture to get us out of here!!!!

 

[JonShaff]

Now this is one of the best posts on this thread. this is exactly what we should be about day by day!
To begin to answer I will start by taking some of your recent comments;



we are to worship God and have Him and his word ruling all of our conduct. You mention
here some of your daily responsibilities

You are to be a Godly Man, a Godly husband, a Godly father ....
You are to serve God in his gathered assembly on the Lords day and other stated meetings of the church.
You are to obey the 30 one another passages in the Nt....love one another, exhort one another, etc.
This is fully inline with what the Ot prophets present as the good news of the kingdom.

This is for starters....look even before the cross what we are told;
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.



Yes...an ambassador Proclaims the message to the King. He declares what the king requires, what are the terms. So we are to do this.
We are to occupy in every sphere of life.....as a holy nation a nation of kings and priests reigning with Jesus.

there are many more such things that can be gleaned from the OT law , as well as the Nt epistles.
we do not just throw our hands up and say"satan rules" I am helpless, cannot wait for the rapture to get us out of here!!!!

Right, that is the Spiritual/Heavenly perspective--The Kingdom of God Within Us(Believers only). Have you pet any lions lately? Do people go to the courts when there is a Charge against King Jesus? You do realize the millenial reign will have believers and non-believers (in a pre-mil perspective) in it as well, right?

 

[JonShaff]

I'm living My Life Fully Devoted to Christ, just like shadrach, mishach and abednego, living in a foreign kingdom.

Romans 15
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

 

[JonShaff]

But instead of God bringing Home the captives, God will Come to US...Praise the Lord Jesus Christ, Our Deliverer! To Make the Spiritual a Physical Reality (we walk by faith, not by sight)

 

[JonShaff]

Question, Do you guys think the world is going to become more "Christian-y" or less or n/a?

 

[JonShaff]

Now this is one of the best posts on this thread. this is exactly what we should be about day by day!
To begin to answer I will start by taking some of your recent comments;
there are many more such things that can be gleaned from the OT law , as well as the Nt epistles.
we do not just throw our hands up and say"satan rules" I am helpless, cannot wait for the rapture to get us out of here!!!!

I think you have me and other pre-mil's mistaken when you say this...

 

[Iconoclast]

How so? Talk to me about your day in the Kingdom (That's not a heavenly/Spiritual Perspective).

Have you ever gone over and studied the ot law? In as far as it still can speak to us.
We no longer sacrifice animals and some of the other ceremonial aspects of the law are completed.....yet there are other laws that were given as directives to that people as they were to be such a Holy nation....for example;
from lev 19 alone;
2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.
Peter quotes this

3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the Lord your God.

And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.

11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
found in eph4

12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the Lord.

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the Lord.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

If we approach scripture looking at the ot portions and see what Israel was supposed to do, then realize they failed, but now we are called to be that Holy nation...your view of the Kingdom will be changed forever

 

[DHK]

Internet Theologian said: ↑
I expected better behavior from a moderator but you are correct. Typically he goes 'to the man' in addressing their responses.

Your real meaning is: When you can't respond to the message you attack the messenger. That is truly pitiful. That is what almost got this thread closed quite some pages ago. Are you going to start again? Or, are you going to post to the OP? Name-calling and derisive comments are not permitted and will only get this thread shut down.

 

[JonShaff]

Have you ever gone over and studied the ot law? In as far as it still can speak to us.

If we approach scripture looking at the ot portions and see what Israel was supposed to do, then realize they failed, but now we are called to be that Holy nation...your view of the Kingdom will be changed forever

Brother, please take my word for it that i've studied it out immensely. I'd be careful as you border on "Replacement Theology".

 

[Iconoclast]

JonShaff

Right, that is the Spiritual/Heavenly perspective--The Kingdom of God Within Us(Believers only).

It is much more than that. It is God ruling from heaven here on earth....It is not detached as the false dispensational idea teaches, watch;

acts9
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Union with Christ does that just that. Saul was killing Christians, jesus ruling in heaven says...why do you persecute ME.....see it?
here in Mt 25...the same principle;
Matthew 25King James Version (KJV)

25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



Have you pet any lions lately? Do people go to the courts when there is a Charge against King Jesus? You do realize the millenial reign will have believers and non-believers (in a pre-mil perspective) in it as well, right?[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother, please take my word for it that i've studied it out immensely. I'd be careful as you border on "Replacement Theology".

Not at all......it is fulfillment theology...it is the second Exodus! You are getting bad teaching from somewhere...it keeps you from using all 66 books.