The Priority of Lordship

Hardly.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

WEBDOG , since Scripture does not contradict Scripture you must realize that when some English versions say in John 12:32 ... I will draw all men to myself ... --- it means all sorts of people from around the world . Therefore , John 6:44 says : No one can come unto Me unless the Father who sent me draw him , and I will raise him up at the last day .
Everyone is not drawn to Jesus by the Father -- only the ones of His choosing . ALL who are drawn are saved .

 

I know your position on that, I disagree, though. John 6:44 is not the proof text that confines the "all men" to only those who are raised up. The context of those who are raised in John 6:40...those who BELIEVE.
If anything, John 6 points forward to John 12 as "all men" meaning all men.

 

OK. That's good! I recently had one poster tell me that Hodges was more representative of Calvinism than Sproul so I was really concerned that "mental assent" might be all there was to Calvie salvation!

skypair

 

When Moses lifted up the rod with the serpent, who was able to respond? Everyone that was bitten and dying, right? Anybody alive today not bitten and dying?

 

I think they probably were referring to Charles Hodge, a professor at Princeton Seminary around 1900. Charles Hodge was a Reformed theologian. Zane Hodges, a one-time professor at Dallas Seminary (I think?) who is still alive (I think?) is the purveyor of the "mental assent" theology. Zane Hodges is not Reformed.

 

Martin --- Let me see if I can explain how regeneration DOESN'T precede faith. Let me preface my explanation by saying that Calvies have absolutely no way of distinguishing soul from spirit and, therefore, would be oblivious to an explanation that dissects and examines the two in salvation.

Total inability -- which is what engenders the Calvie belief in regeneration preceding faith -- it WRONG. There is NO sin guilt passed on to every man through birth (Isa 18:20) -- only the predisposition to sin as one grows up which is known as "sin nature."

"The SOUL that sinneth, it shall surely die" tells us the that soul of man dies upon sinning. It has absolutely NO desire for the things of anyone but SELF. It is ONLY the mind that can be responsive to the knowledge of God, but since the soul is "all about me," such knowledge is irrelevant without the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, the SPIRIT of man (mind, emotions, and will) is CAPABLE of knowing "good and evil" just like Adam after the fall. The ONLY thing hidden from unregenerate men is the "hidden wisdom of God" (1Cor 2:6) which requires Spirit indwelling to understand (1Cor 2:14). But unregenerate man CAN understand and respond to the gospel (1Cor 2:1-5)! And that we see ALL THE TIME!! Some will start going to church to try to investigate what they have heard even. This is not the Spirit working on them yet -- it is their own spirit.

Now, when one believes, repents, and receives, one is regenerated and given faith simultaneously as you say. What made the difference? The true believer "reprogramms" his/her soul -- the soul that was "all about me" -- by committing all things to Christ. It means that EVERY decision that he/she is called on to make, he/she will "run by" God before choosing. It means that he/she will let God have the throne rather than self and that God's glory will be the purpose of his/her life and not self. Do you get it?

Finally, the "new birth"/regeneration means the Holy Spirit dwells IN you. And since you were an unbeliever before hearing the gospel, it is diametrically opposed to everything in scripture that the Holy Spirit should indwell an unbeliever, elect or non-elect.

skypair

 

Thanks Andy! It's almost not worth trying to keep up with these personalities, isn't it?

skypair

 

That is the entire issue. John 12:32 is in direct relation to Moses' lifting up of the serpent. The verses you add only confuse the issue, as you state the converse of Scripture (immutable truth) as also immutable truth, which it is not (John 6:37-40). Scripture doesn't say that those who don't come to Christ were never drawn. Thats the calvinst interpretation and spin associated with those verses...and what you need for your theology to work.
The whole point is when Christ was lifted up, all mankind had to do was look upon him...faith...and they would be saved. In the exact same sense every person bitten and inflicted by the poisonous snakes were able to look upon Moses' staff, the human race...bitten and inflicted by sin...can look upon Christ. Everyone.

 

Stop. Let's see who...
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

Faulty conclusions. True, nobody comes to Christ without being drawn, but Scripture tells us that those WHO BELIEVE will be raised on the last day. Logically, those who are drawn believe, but it is illogical to say that those don't believe weren't drawn. This is your error.

If I say that everyone who attends my church loves chicken, can you claim that everyone who loves chicken attends my church? That's what you are doing with this passage.

Again, NOT what Scripture says. Scripture tells us plainly that all of those who come to Christ (believe) were drawn by the Father, and those who believe will be raised up. Period...end. Adding anything else to that line of thinking is pure eisegesis.

More eisegesis...

Because you have to

More putting the cart before the horse. All the Father gives to Jesus were drawn by the Father, and those who believed (not drawn) are raised up on the last day. That's Scripture. Let's let our readers see this for themselves...

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

 

I read your post and understand the meaning of obedience in the "Kingdom Church". I understand your thinking for after all didn't John, along with James, and Peter shake hands with Paul and say they would not preach their circumcised gospel to the uncircumcised?

Did you read my post of "Amen? There is the 'Kingdom Church', and there is the 'Body Church', to James_Newman?

I answered your Post #1 where you show "Body Church", and the "Kingdom Church", and I could be wrong, but you don't seem to grasp what you are quoting.

You quote Jesus on earth who said the "Kingdom is coming" (next thing on the agenda) using Matthew 10:37-39, and John 14:6, and in the same breath use what Christ revealed to Paul from heaven in Ephesians 2:8-9. We are not of "obedience of the Kingdom salvation", but of by the Grace of God through faith. We look for the "rapture" which Jesus while on earth could not reveal, and that the Jew could today be saved just as we Gentile's. Your Ephesian reference is part of the secret Christ Jesus revealed to Paul. Is Jesus a "blabbermouth"?

 

Negative! That it disproven "theory." Scripture says "knowing good and evil." Adam already knew good. There is NO reason he (and we) can't know it after the fall.

Salvation is CONDITIONAL on our BELIEF. Show me one person saved without belief and we can talk.

They not only WILL seek -- the MUST seek (Rom 1)!

Because it is there that Paul says he came to the Corinthians speaking NOTHING but the gospel. The CAN understand/comprehend this and believe. In 2:6, he says that those who are saved CAN know hidden wisdom.

That is a demonic statement! No one here is even implying such! Keep your devilish thoughts to yourself!

 

False Dilemma

Martin:

No, your suggestion is not the alternative. God is not sitting around, see John 16:7-11.

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

The Holy Spirit is actively, constantly doing His convincing and convicting work.

One of main problems with Calvinism is that the Calvinist feels so compelled to uphold the sovereignty of God (which is a good thing) he must negate the free will of man entirely. The sovereignty of God is even more magnified when, as the Scriptures teach, man has the free will to choose and God is still sovereign.

Lordship Salvation and Antinomianism are both wrong! Both are extremes that must be rejected.

Lordship advocates will claim they are answering the Easy-Believism gospel and Antinomianism that is found in some circles. They will not see that many preach and teach a gospel message that balances faith and repentance. They cannot see both Divine Sovereignty & Human Freedom. There is a shortcoming with the Lordship advocate’s lack of balance in definitions, which is known as the False Dilemma.

LM

In Defense of the Gospel

 

Out-of-Town

Men:

I am out of town until the weekend.

I'll check back then.

LM

 

See you then, Lou. God bless!

skypair