The Priority of Lordship

[webdog]

After all the alternative belief is that salvation is something man can do with only the assistance of God. In that view God is reduced to sitting around waiting for people to come to Him.

Hardly.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

[Rippon]

WEBDOG , since Scripture does not contradict Scripture you must realize that when some English versions say in John 12:32 ... I will draw all men to myself ... --- it means all sorts of people from around the world . Therefore , John 6:44 says : No one can come unto Me unless the Father who sent me draw him , and I will raise him up at the last day .
Everyone is not drawn to Jesus by the Father -- only the ones of His choosing . ALL who are drawn are saved .

 

[webdog]

I know your position on that, I disagree, though. John 6:44 is not the proof text that confines the "all men" to only those who are raised up. The context of those who are raised in John 6:40...those who BELIEVE.
If anything, John 6 points forward to John 12 as "all men" meaning all men.

 

[Martin]

Hardly.
Joh 12:32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

==How you are using that verse only proves my point. You understand that verse in a way that has God giving a general call hoping people will be nice enough to pay attention and respond. I don't understand that verse that way and I don't think John meant it that way when he pinned it. I believe that God is totally sovereign in all areas of life including salvation. Those the Father draws to Jesus will come to Jesus and be raised to life on the last (Jn 6:37-40). There are no questions about who will come to Jesus. All the Father gives to Jesus "will" come to Him and be raised to life on the last day. They will not be cast away (Jn 6:37) and they will not be lost or allowed to perish (Jn 6:39, 10:28-29) because Jesus does the will of the Father (Jn 6:38). In John 12:32 Jesus is saying, what the rest of Scripture teaches, that the offer of salvation is made to all. Through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection God has provided salvation for all who come to Him. Who will come to Him? Back to John 6:37, those the Father has given Him (the elect) will come to Him. God draws people from every tribe, race, culture, and ethnic background to Himself. To understand John 12:32 the way you seem to understand it creates a conflict with John 6:37(ff).

 

[skypair]

Sky:

Actually the Calvinists I interact with would utterly reject the "Mental Assent Only" position that is synonymous with Hodges.

LM

In Defense of the Gospel

OK. That's good! I recently had one poster tell me that Hodges was more representative of Calvinism than Sproul so I was really concerned that "mental assent" might be all there was to Calvie salvation!

skypair

 

[webdog]

==How you are using that verse only proves my point. You understand that verse in a way that has God giving a general call hoping people will be nice enough to pay attention and respond. I don't understand that verse that way and I don't think John meant it that way when he pinned it. I believe that God is totally sovereign in all areas of life including salvation. Those the Father draws to Jesus will come to Jesus and be raised to life on the last (Jn 6:37-40). There are no questions about who will come to Jesus. All the Father gives to Jesus "will" come to Him and be raised to life on the last day. They will not be cast away (Jn 6:37) and they will not be lost or allowed to perish (Jn 6:39, 10:28-29) because Jesus does the will of the Father (Jn 6:38). In John 12:32 Jesus is saying, what the rest of Scripture teaches, that the offer of salvation is made to all. Through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection God has provided salvation for all who come to Him. Who will come to Him? Back to John 6:37, those the Father has given Him (the elect) will come to Him. God draws people from every tribe, race, culture, and ethnic background to Himself. To understand John 12:32 the way you seem to understand it creates a conflict with John 6:37(ff).

When Moses lifted up the rod with the serpent, who was able to respond? Everyone that was bitten and dying, right? Anybody alive today not bitten and dying?

 

[Andy T.]

OK. That's good! I recently had one poster tell me that Hodges was more representative of Calvinism than Sproul so I was really concerned that "mental assent" might be all there was to Calvie salvation!

skypair

I think they probably were referring to Charles Hodge, a professor at Princeton Seminary around 1900. Charles Hodge was a Reformed theologian. Zane Hodges, a one-time professor at Dallas Seminary (I think?) who is still alive (I think?) is the purveyor of the "mental assent" theology. Zane Hodges is not Reformed.

 

[skypair]

==That is true, just because someone holds to a doctrine does not mean that doctrine is true. However I believe this belief does hold up. After all the alternative belief is that salvation is something man can do with only the assistance of God. In that view God is reduced to sitting around waiting for people to come to Him. In the Reformed view, as in Scripture, salvation is of the Lord. The Lord is Sovereign and He controls every aspect of salvation. Another aspect of this alternative to "Lordship Salvation" is antinomianism which allows believers to become unbelievers, in belief and/or action, and still have assurance of their salvation. Such teaching is unBiblical in its milder form (Ryrie, etc) or in its extreme form (Hodges, Wilking, etc).

Martin --- Let me see if I can explain how regeneration DOESN'T precede faith. Let me preface my explanation by saying that Calvies have absolutely no way of distinguishing soul from spirit and, therefore, would be oblivious to an explanation that dissects and examines the two in salvation.

Total inability -- which is what engenders the Calvie belief in regeneration preceding faith -- it WRONG. There is NO sin guilt passed on to every man through birth (Isa 18:20) -- only the predisposition to sin as one grows up which is known as "sin nature."

"The SOUL that sinneth, it shall surely die" tells us the that soul of man dies upon sinning. It has absolutely NO desire for the things of anyone but SELF. It is ONLY the mind that can be responsive to the knowledge of God, but since the soul is "all about me," such knowledge is irrelevant without the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, the SPIRIT of man (mind, emotions, and will) is CAPABLE of knowing "good and evil" just like Adam after the fall. The ONLY thing hidden from unregenerate men is the "hidden wisdom of God" (1Cor 2:6) which requires Spirit indwelling to understand (1Cor 2:14). But unregenerate man CAN understand and respond to the gospel (1Cor 2:1-5)! And that we see ALL THE TIME!! Some will start going to church to try to investigate what they have heard even. This is not the Spirit working on them yet -- it is their own spirit.

Now, when one believes, repents, and receives, one is regenerated and given faith simultaneously as you say. What made the difference? The true believer "reprogramms" his/her soul -- the soul that was "all about me" -- by committing all things to Christ. It means that EVERY decision that he/she is called on to make, he/she will "run by" God before choosing. It means that he/she will let God have the throne rather than self and that God's glory will be the purpose of his/her life and not self. Do you get it?

Finally, the "new birth"/regeneration means the Holy Spirit dwells IN you. And since you were an unbeliever before hearing the gospel, it is diametrically opposed to everything in scripture that the Holy Spirit should indwell an unbeliever, elect or non-elect.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I think they probably were referring to Charles Hodge, a professor at Princeton Seminary around 1900. Charles Hodge was a Reformed theologian. Zane Hodges, a one-time professor at Dallas Seminary (I think?) who is still alive (I think?) is the purveyor of the "mental assent" theology. Zane Hodges is not Reformed.

Thanks Andy! It's almost not worth trying to keep up with these personalities, isn't it?

skypair

 

[Martin]

When Moses lifted up the rod with the serpent, who was able to respond? Everyone that was bitten and dying, right? Anybody alive today not bitten and dying?

==Let's first deal with the issues/points I raised before jumping to yet another section. That helps avoid confusion and it keeps everthing on track. :wavey:

How you are using that verse only proves my point. You understand that verse in a way that has God giving a general call hoping people will be nice enough to pay attention and respond. I don't understand that verse that way and I don't think John meant it that way when he pinned it. I believe that God is totally sovereign in all areas of life including salvation. Those the Father draws to Jesus will come to Jesus and be raised to life on the last (Jn 6:37-40). There are no questions about who will come to Jesus. All the Father gives to Jesus "will" come to Him and be raised to life on the last day. They will not be cast away (Jn 6:37) and they will not be lost or allowed to perish (Jn 6:39, 10:28-29) because Jesus does the will of the Father (Jn 6:38). In John 12:32 Jesus is saying, what the rest of Scripture teaches, that the offer of salvation is made to all. Through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection God has provided salvation for all who come to Him. Who will come to Him? Back to John 6:37, those the Father has given Him (the elect) will come to Him. God draws people from every tribe, race, culture, and ethnic background to Himself. To understand John 12:32 the way you seem to understand it creates a conflict with John 6:37(ff).

 

[webdog]

==Let's first deal with the issues/points I raised before jumping to yet another section. That helps avoid confusion and it keeps everthing on track. :wavey:

How you are using that verse only proves my point. You understand that verse in a way that has God giving a general call hoping people will be nice enough to pay attention and respond. I don't understand that verse that way and I don't think John meant it that way when he pinned it. I believe that God is totally sovereign in all areas of life including salvation. Those the Father draws to Jesus will come to Jesus and be raised to life on the last (Jn 6:37-40). There are no questions about who will come to Jesus. All the Father gives to Jesus "will" come to Him and be raised to life on the last day. They will not be cast away (Jn 6:37) and they will not be lost or allowed to perish (Jn 6:39, 10:28-29) because Jesus does the will of the Father (Jn 6:38). In John 12:32 Jesus is saying, what the rest of Scripture teaches, that the offer of salvation is made to all. Through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection God has provided salvation for all who come to Him. Who will come to Him? Back to John 6:37, those the Father has given Him (the elect) will come to Him. God draws people from every tribe, race, culture, and ethnic background to Himself. To understand John 12:32 the way you seem to understand it creates a conflict with John 6:37(ff).

That is the entire issue. John 12:32 is in direct relation to Moses' lifting up of the serpent. The verses you add only confuse the issue, as you state the converse of Scripture (immutable truth) as also immutable truth, which it is not (John 6:37-40). Scripture doesn't say that those who don't come to Christ were never drawn. Thats the calvinst interpretation and spin associated with those verses...and what you need for your theology to work.
The whole point is when Christ was lifted up, all mankind had to do was look upon him...faith...and they would be saved. In the exact same sense every person bitten and inflicted by the poisonous snakes were able to look upon Moses' staff, the human race...bitten and inflicted by sin...can look upon Christ. Everyone.

 

[Martin]

Total inability -- which is what engenders the Calvie belief in regeneration preceding faith -- it WRONG. There is NO sin guilt passed on to every man through birth (Isa 18:20) -- only the predisposition to sin as one grows up which is known as "sin nature."

==That "sin nature", as you call it, disables the freewill (using Arminius' term). Every person's nature is totally depraved. Due to the structure of society (etc) we may not see depravity on full display from most people however it is very much there. Because of this nature a person sins, is dead in sin, and cannot do anything to please God or to place themselves in right relationship with God. This is why salvation must be of the Lord. Lost, sinful man will not seek the true and living God apart from the work of God.

Thus, the SPIRIT of man (mind, emotions, and will) is CAPABLE of knowing "good and evil" just like Adam after the fall. The ONLY thing hidden from unregenerate men is the "hidden wisdom of God" (1Cor 2:6) which requires Spirit indwelling to understand (1Cor 2:14). But unregenerate man CAN understand and respond to the gospel (1Cor 2:1-5)!

==I'm not sure how, or why, you think 1Cor 2:1-5 proves your point so I'm even going to try to deal with that until you explain why/how you think it does. Lost men can do NOTHING to please God (Rom 8:8) and unless God draws them to Himself they will not come (Jn 6:37-40,44, Rom 3:11-12).

And that we see ALL THE TIME!! Some will start going to church to try to investigate what they have heard even. This is not the Spirit working on them yet -- it is their own spirit.

==O yes, let's get God out of this as much as possible. The fact that this lost person starts going to church, hears the Gospel, repents and believes, has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit of God working in that person! Give me a break, please!! Scripture is very, very clear that no person can/will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ apart from the work of God in that person's heart (Jn 6:44, etc). The very fact that you claim, based on outward experience, that a person can come to Christ without the Holy Spirit working in their hearts is very troubling. By claiming that salvation is the work of man you have just turned Scripture on its head. What you seem to be preaching is nothing but pure humanism wrapped up in religious/Christian clothing.

Now, when one believes, repents, and receives, one is regenerated and given faith simultaneously as you say. What made the difference? The true believer "reprogramms" his/her soul -- the soul that was "all about me" -- by committing all things to Christ. It means that EVERY decision that he/she is called on to make, he/she will "run by" God before choosing. It means that he/she will let God have the throne rather than self and that God's glory will be the purpose of his/her life and not self. Do you get it?

==I understand what you are saying but I disagree very, very strongly.

 

[Martin]

That is the entire issue. John 12:32 is in direct relation to Moses' lifting up of the serpent. The verses you add only confuse the issue

==:laugh: No, they only "confuse the issue" because the conclusion being reached is not what you want it to be. I'm not sure how you link John 12:32 to John 3:14-15 while skipping over John 6:37-44 (which also speaks of drawing/coming, etc).

Scripture doesn't say that those who don't come to Christ were never drawn.

==If all those who come to Christ were drawn to Him first (Jn 6:37), will be raised up to life by Him (Jn 6:37-40), and if nobody can come to Christ without being drawn to Him (Jn 6:44), then only those who are the elect will be drawn to Christ in this way. You are overlooking the fact that all those who are drawn to Christ, come to Christ, and are raised up on the last day. There is no break in that chain indeed, I would even go so far as to say, there is no room for a break in that chain. If a person does not come to Christ it is because they were not drawn to Christ in this way (saving way). Why do I say that? Because ALL the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to Jesus and be raised up to life on the last day. This is why Jesus told some Jewish folks in John 10 that they did not believe BECAUSE they were not one of His sheep (Jn 10:26).

The whole point is when Christ was lifted up, all mankind had to do was look upon him...faith...and they would be saved

==I agree with that 100%. The point I am making is about who WILL look to Christ and be saved. Scripture is clear only the elect will.

 

[webdog]

If all those who come to Christ were drawn to Him first (Jn 6:37),

Stop. Let's see who...
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

will be raised up to life by Him (Jn 6:37-40), and if nobody can come to Christ without being drawn to Him (Jn 6:44), then only those who are the elect will be drawn to Christ in this way.

Faulty conclusions. True, nobody comes to Christ without being drawn, but Scripture tells us that those WHO BELIEVE will be raised on the last day. Logically, those who are drawn believe, but it is illogical to say that those don't believe weren't drawn. This is your error.

If I say that everyone who attends my church loves chicken, can you claim that everyone who loves chicken attends my church? That's what you are doing with this passage.

You are overlooking the fact that all those who are drawn to Christ, come to Christ, and are raised up on the last day. There is no break in that chain indeed, I would even go so far as to say, there is no room for a break in that chain.

Again, NOT what Scripture says. Scripture tells us plainly that all of those who come to Christ (believe) were drawn by the Father, and those who believe will be raised up. Period...end. Adding anything else to that line of thinking is pure eisegesis.

If a person does not come to Christ it is because they were not drawn to Christ in this way (saving way).

More eisegesis...

Why do I say that?

Because you have to

Because ALL the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to Jesus and be raised up to life on the last day. This is why Jesus told some Jewish folks in John 10 that they did not believe BECAUSE they were not one of His sheep (Jn 10:26).

More putting the cart before the horse. All the Father gives to Jesus were drawn by the Father, and those who believed (not drawn) are raised up on the last day. That's Scripture. Let's let our readers see this for themselves...

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

 

[Martin]

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

==Whoever comes to Jesus is correct however you failed to quote the verse that answers the question "who" will come to Jesus? Whoever can but "who" will? Those the Father has given Him (Jn 6:37).

True, nobody comes to Christ without being drawn, but Scripture tells us that those WHO BELIEVE will be raised on the last day.

==Those who believe are those who have been given to the Son by the Father (Jn 6:37-40,44).

Logically, those who are drawn believe, but it is illogical to say that those don't believe weren't drawn. This is your error.

==Yet it was Jesus who said "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep" (Jn 10:26). It was Jesus who said only those the Father has given Him can/will come to come Him (Jn 6:37,44). If a person is drawn to Christ it means they were given to Him by the Father and they will come to Christ and be raised up on the last day (Jn 6:37,40,44).

Again, NOT what Scripture says. Scripture tells us plainly that all of those who come to Christ (believe) were drawn by the Father, and those who believe will be raised up. Period...end. Adding anything else to that line of thinking is pure eisegesis.

==I think the problem here is that you really don't want to face the meaning of the text. That is why you wanted to jump to John 12:32 and 3:14-15. In John 6:37-44 all you do is deny, deny, deny.
If a person does not come to Jesus then it MUST mean they were not given to Him by the Father and thus were not drawn. That is the logical conclusion of John 6:37 and 44.

More putting the cart before the horse. All the Father gives to Jesus were drawn by the Father, and those who believed (not drawn) are raised up on the last day. That's Scripture. Let's let our readers see this for themselves...

==Those who are drawn ARE raised on the last day:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" -Jn 6:44

Those who come to Jesus, who are drawn to Jesus, do believe (Jn 6:40) and all of them are raised up on the last day (Jn 6:38-40,44).

 

[ituttut]

==Did you read my post? Obedience does not bring salvation it is a result of salvation (1Jn 2:3-6, 3:9-10).

I read your post and understand the meaning of obedience in the "Kingdom Church". I understand your thinking for after all didn't John, along with James, and Peter shake hands with Paul and say they would not preach their circumcised gospel to the uncircumcised?

Did you read my post of "Amen? There is the 'Kingdom Church', and there is the 'Body Church', to James_Newman?

I answered your Post #1 where you show "Body Church", and the "Kingdom Church", and I could be wrong, but you don't seem to grasp what you are quoting.

You quote Jesus on earth who said the "Kingdom is coming" (next thing on the agenda) using Matthew 10:37-39, and John 14:6, and in the same breath use what Christ revealed to Paul from heaven in Ephesians 2:8-9. We are not of "obedience of the Kingdom salvation", but of by the Grace of God through faith. We look for the "rapture" which Jesus while on earth could not reveal, and that the Jew could today be saved just as we Gentile's. Your Ephesian reference is part of the secret Christ Jesus revealed to Paul. Is Jesus a "blabbermouth"?

 

[skypair]

==That "sin nature", as you call it, disables the freewill (using Arminius' term).

Negative! That it disproven "theory." Scripture says "knowing good and evil." Adam already knew good. There is NO reason he (and we) can't know it after the fall.

Every person's nature is totally depraved. Due to the structure of society (etc) we may not see depravity on full display from most people however it is very much there. Because of this nature a person sins, is dead in sin, and cannot do anything to please God...

Salvation is CONDITIONAL on our BELIEF. Show me one person saved without belief and we can talk.

Lost, sinful man will not seek the true and living God apart from the work of God.

They not only WILL seek -- the MUST seek (Rom 1)!

==I'm not sure how, or why, you think 1Cor 2:1-5 proves your point so I'm even going to try to deal with that until you explain why/how you think it does. Lost men can do NOTHING to please God (Rom 8:8) and unless God draws them to Himself they will not come (Jn 6:37-40,44, Rom 3:11-12).

Because it is there that Paul says he came to the Corinthians speaking NOTHING but the gospel. The CAN understand/comprehend this and believe. In 2:6, he says that those who are saved CAN know hidden wisdom.

==O yes, let's get God out of this as much as possible.

That is a demonic statement! No one here is even implying such! Keep your devilish thoughts to yourself!

The fact that this lost person starts going to church, hears the Gospel, repents and believes, has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit of God working in that person! Give me a break, please!!

Oh, it doesn't? So you would recommend that people NOT go there, eh? That ought to bolster Calvinism and the teaching of salvation by "election" anyway.

Scripture is very, very clear that no person can/will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ apart from the work of God in that person's heart (Jn 6:44, etc). The very fact that you claim, based on outward experience, that a person can come to Christ without the Holy Spirit working in their hearts is very troubling.

Again, you mischaracterize my view. You disregard, apparently, prevenient grace, common grace, and any other means by which the Holy Spirit works.

By claiming that salvation is the work of man you have just turned Scripture on its head. What you seem to be preaching is nothing but pure humanism wrapped up in religious/Christian clothing.

Apparently, it is you that won't discuss theology intelligibly. So how's your blood boiling now?? :laugh: :laugh:

skypair

 

[Lou Martuneac]

False Dilemma

==That is true, just because someone holds to a doctrine does not mean that doctrine is true. However I believe this belief does hold up. After all the alternative belief is that salvation is something man can do with only the assistance of God. In that view God is reduced to sitting around waiting for people to come to Him.

Martin:

No, your suggestion is not the alternative. God is not sitting around, see John 16:7-11.

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

The Holy Spirit is actively, constantly doing His convincing and convicting work.

One of main problems with Calvinism is that the Calvinist feels so compelled to uphold the sovereignty of God (which is a good thing) he must negate the free will of man entirely. The sovereignty of God is even more magnified when, as the Scriptures teach, man has the free will to choose and God is still sovereign.

In the Reformed view, as in Scripture, salvation is of the Lord. The Lord is Sovereign and He controls every aspect of salvation. Another aspect of this alternative to "Lordship Salvation" is antinomianism, which allows believers to become unbelievers, in belief and/or action, and still have assurance of their salvation. Such teaching is unBiblical in its milder form (Ryrie, etc) or in its extreme form (Hodges, Wilking, etc).

Lordship Salvation and Antinomianism are both wrong! Both are extremes that must be rejected.

Lordship advocates will claim they are answering the Easy-Believism gospel and Antinomianism that is found in some circles. They will not see that many preach and teach a gospel message that balances faith and repentance. They cannot see both Divine Sovereignty & Human Freedom. There is a shortcoming with the Lordship advocate’s lack of balance in definitions, which is known as the False Dilemma.

“The student of logic will spend some time studying fallacies. One of the logical fallacies people use in an attempt to prove their point is sometimes called the 'false dilemma.' This fallacy occurs 'when the two alternatives are presented, not all the possibilities have been explored.' This fallacy presents itself in the current debate. Those who advocate the lordship salvation position see only the mental assent or 'easy believism' position as an alternative. Likewise those who hold to Hodges’ mental assent position decry all others as advocates of lordship salvation… There is a balanced, biblical position on the issue of salvation.” (In Defense of the Gospel, p. 127.)

LM

In Defense of the Gospel

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Out-of-Town

Men:

I am out of town until the weekend.

I'll check back then.

LM

 

[skypair]

Men:

I am out of town until the weekend.

I'll check back then.

LM

See you then, Lou. God bless!

skypair