The Priority of Lordship

[Martin]

Negative! That it disproven "theory." Scripture says "knowing good and evil." Adam already knew good. There is NO reason he (and we) can't know it after the fall.

==A lost person, who is dead in sin, can do nothing to please God or to bring about their own salvation (Rom 8:8, Eph 2:1-3, etc).

Salvation is CONDITIONAL on our BELIEF. Show me one person saved without belief and we can talk.

==I never said a person can be saved without belief.

They not only WILL seek -- the MUST seek (Rom 1)!

==As I pointed out, with Scripture, a lost person will not seek the true and Living God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. See the verses I cited yesterday.

Because it is there that Paul says he came to the Corinthians speaking NOTHING but the gospel. The CAN understand/comprehend this and believe. In 2:6, he says that those who are saved CAN know hidden wisdom.

==Of course in those verses Paul is not talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation or anything like that. You are understanding these verses the way you are because you are ignoring other verses. We must understand the whole counsel of Scripture and not just certain parts. As for 1Cor 2:6, well that is talking about believers so I am not sure what that has to do with those who are lost and dead in sin.

That is a demonic statement! No one here is even implying such! Keep your devilish thoughts to yourself!

==May I quote what you said? You said, "And that we see ALL THE TIME!! Some will start going to church to try to investigate what they have heard even. This is not the Spirit working on them yet -- it is their own spirit.". In your statement it is man who starts the process of salvation, not God. In your statement God picks things up after a mortal makes the first move. However Scripture does not teach such humanistic ideas. My remarks are a response to the humanism in your post/reply.

Oh, it doesn't? So you would recommend that people NOT go there, eh? That ought to bolster Calvinism and the teaching of salvation by "election" anyway.

==My point is that a lost person does not seek the true and Living God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. A lost person may attend church but if the Holy Spirit is not drawing them to Christ they will not, they cannot, come to Christ (Jn 6:44). Going to church will not save anyone.

Again, you mischaracterize my view. You disregard, apparently, prevenient grace, common grace, and any other means by which the Holy Spirit works.

==Of course "prevenient grace, common grace" is not the point of passages like John 6:37,44. There is a certain work of the Holy Spirit, in the heart of a lost sinner, that causes that person to come to Christ (Jn 6:37).

 

[Martin]

No, your suggestion is not the alternative. God is not sitting around, see John 16:7-11.

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

The Holy Spirit is actively, constantly doing His convincing and convicting work.

==And, of course, drawing the elect to Christ without fail.

One of main problems with Calvinism is that the Calvinist feels so compelled to uphold the sovereignty of God (which is a good thing) he must negate the free will of man entirely. The sovereignty of God is even more magnified when, as the Scriptures teach, man has the free will to choose and God is still sovereign.

==That sounds real nice and everything but that is not the teaching of Scripture. God draws to Himself those who He saves. In fact it was a Sovereign act of God that caused the person to come to Christ in the first place (Jn 6:37).

 

[skypair]

==A lost person, who is dead in sin, can do nothing to please God or to bring about their own salvation (Rom 8:8, Eph 2:1-3, etc).

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Who did Paul say this to, Marty? The Philipian jailer, right? The "dead in sin" jailer who asked "What must I do to be saved." In fact, Paul had not even presented the gospel yet! just sung a few hymns. Are you saying that the Gentile jailer was somehow "regenerate" without hearing the gospel?? Your theology is making no sense to me.

BELIEVING is something the unsaved can do to please God and to bring about their own salvation. As you said, "I never said a person can be saved without belief."

As I pointed out, with Scripture, a lost person will not seek the true and Living God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. See the verses I cited yesterday.

And as I pointed out, the Holy Spirit is everywhere "working" to draw ALL men to God/Christ. Since Adam's fall He "strove" with men. Not just the "elect," Martin. Can't hardly strive with those who can't hear, can you?

Of course in those verses Paul is not talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation or anything like that.

Holy Spirit working is implied whenever the gospel of grace is preached, Marty. The Spirit is the mind, emotions, and will of God. Of course the Spirit is working when the gospel is preached!

skypair

 

[Martin]

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Who did Paul say this to, Martin?

==We are to believe, yes, but that belief is from where? God. As was once said, what God commands He provides. No lost person, of their own freewill, will seek the Living God and believe (Rom 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, etc). I believe there is a verse in one of Paul's letters to Timothy that also makes this point but being that I am not in my office, I and I can't recall the verse off the top of my head, I can't cite it right now. Either way faith and repentance are gifts from God.

The Philipian jailer, right? The "dead in sin" jailer who asked "What must I do to be saved."

==Why do you think he asked that question and was saved? Because he was given to Christ by the Father and drawn to Him (Jn 6:37-40,44). He was given the gift of faith and repentance and he was saved.

In fact, Paul had not even presented the gospel yet! just sung a few hymns. Are you saying that the Gentile jailer was somehow "regenerate" without hearing the gospel?? Your theology is making no sense to me.

==I know it does not. It is clear that you don't understand Reformed Theology. Maybe you should study the subject before trying to discuss it? Then you would have a better understanding of my statements (etc).

BELIEVING is something the unsaved can do to please God and to bring about their own salvation. As you said, "I never said a person can be saved without belief."

==No unbeliever can do anything, on their own, to please God (Rom 8:8). That is the very clear teaching of Scripture. Those unbelievers who repent and believe do so because God is drawing them to Himself (Jn 6:37-40).

And as I pointed out, the Holy Spirit is everywhere "working" to draw ALL men to God/Christ.

==Of course you are ignoring John 6:44 (etc) where the Scriptures talk about a calling to salvation. Those who are called come to Christ and are raised up on the last day (Jn 6:37-40,44). The statement you made above is dangerously close to universalism. All men, in John 12:32, most likely refers to "all men" in the general sense and not the specific sense. Or it may refer to the general preaching of the Gospel to all men.

Since Adam's fall He "strove" with men. Not just the "elect," Martin. Can't hardly strive with those who can't hear, can you?

==Your statements don't fit Scripture.

Holy Spirit working is implied whenever the gospel of grace is preached

==Excuse me, but earlier you said that is not the case in salvation. Let me quote you: "And that we see ALL THE TIME!! Some will start going to church to try to investigate what they have heard even. This is not the Spirit working on them yet -- it is their own spirit". So are you now backing down from that statement? Is it poorly worded? What is the deal? Either the Holy Spirit draws people to Christ or He does not. Either it is the work of the Spirit of God in their heart that causes them to seek after the true God or it is not. Either His call is effective as Jesus talks about in John 6:37 or it is not. Which is it?

 

[Andy T.]

Martin, you may not realize this, but if you look in the 'Babies are Righteous' thread you will see that Skypair denies that people have an inherent sin nature. His view of man is essentially Pelagian. Not even semi-Pelagian, but Pelagian.

 

[skypair]

==We are to believe, yes, but that belief is from where? God.

No, friend. If God believes in God --- well, that goes without saying, right? So from where does believ come?? From the mind God has given us and the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

As was once said, what God commands He provides.

In this case, our mind -- our "spirit."

No lost person, of their own freewill, will seek the Living God and believe (Rom 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, etc).

There is "will," then there is intellect and emotion. Intellect is supposed to direct will. Do you make decisions based on only what you know? Do you only believe what you already think, never taking into account anything or anyone else?? I don't think so.

Clearly, we all learn. We all change thereby. Our "freewill" follows what we learn and believe, Martin. Our will neither lives in a vacuum nor in a prison. Yesterday you didn't even know this girl -- today you want to marry her. Why? Because of what you believe!

Either way faith and repentance are gifts from God.

When we are saved, obviously we consider our faith and repentance to be gifts! And yes, it was in Tim that "God grant them repentance." You know what that means, right? That God has TAUGHT them something new and powerful (of the Spirit) and they repent!

Why do you think he [jailer] asked that question and was saved? Because he was given to Christ by the Father and drawn to Him (Jn 6:37-40,44).

No, Martin. When someone believes and is justified, God gives that person into the kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13). THEN those that "the Father gives the Son He will in no wise cast out." We aren't "given" until we believe.

I know it [youre theology] does not [make sense]. It is clear that you don't understand Reformed Theology. Maybe you should study the subject before trying to discuss it? Then you would have a better understanding of my statements (etc).

This is a mute point. I've studied it and still don't understand why any believer would believe it.

No unbeliever can do anything, on their own, to please God (Rom 8:8).

Not on their own "nickel" they can't. But inspired by the Spirit they can!
Just exactly what is it you think I "brought" to "make" God save me??

That is the very clear teaching of Scripture. Those unbelievers who repent and believe do so because God is drawing them to Himself (Jn 6:37-40).

Yeah, but you seem to be leaving out the part where we, being drawn, actually convert!

Of course you are ignoring John 6:44 (etc) where the Scriptures talk about a calling to salvation.

Actually, the verse says ALL men are called and YOU appear to be leaving out God calling ALL men!

All men, in John 12:32, most likely refers to "all men" in the general sense and not the specific sense.

All men being drawn does NOT mean all men believe. What? Are you kidding?? See, this is the weakness of Calvinism -- REDEFINTION of common terms! "Drawing" does not equal "believing ."

Your statements don't fit Scripture.

You mean they do not fit Calvinism, don't you? :laugh:

If I was Satan (you'll probably find this in "The Screwtape Letters"), I'd change the common Christian vocabulary to confuse the uninitiated, too! What better way to keep people out of the kingdom?!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Martin, you may not realize this, but if you look in the 'Babies are Righteous' thread you will see that Skypair denies that people have an inherent sin nature. His view of man is essentially Pelagian. Not even semi-Pelagian, but Pelagian.

Too bad you don't understand what I believe, Andy. You're "locked in on" a target that doesn't exist. "Survival instinct" cum "sin nature" is NOT a "blank slate."

skypair

 

[EdSutton]

Either way faith and repentance are gifts from God.
...
He was given the gift of faith and repentance and he was saved.

Aside from a misinterpretation that the Greek gender will not support in Eph. 2:8, where it is ever stated that faith and/or repentance is a gift from God, in Scripture?

It is clear that you don't understand Reformed Theology. Maybe you should study the subject before trying to discuss it? Then you would have a better understanding of my statements (etc).

What does understanding some theology, Reformed or another, have to do with whether or not Scripture teaches something? Just wonderin!

Which is it?

Good question. Bible statements or theology?

Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

Aside from a misinterpretation that the Greek gender will not support in Eph. 2:8, where it is ever stated that faith and/or repentance is a gift from God, in Scripture?

For that matter, is it ever stated that salvation is a gift?

I know that being born is never spoken of as a gift to the one being born.

 

[npetreley]

There is "will," then there is intellect and emotion. Intellect is supposed to direct will. Do you make decisions based on only what you know? Do you only believe what you already think, never taking into account anything or anyone else?? I don't think so.

Ah, so your reasoning, which is damaged by the fall, trumps clear scripture. That makes sense.

 

[ituttut]

EdSutton: Aside from a misinterpretation that the Greek gender will not support in Eph. 2:8, where it is ever stated that faith and/or repentance is a gift from God, in Scripture?

For that matter, is it ever stated that salvation is a gift?

I know that being born is never spoken of as a gift to the one being born.

Romans 1:11, and not to be confused with the gift/s that came with that other gospel.

Chapter 5:16 gives us the authority to preach the "free gift", and to receive the "free gift" given for justification of our many offenses.

 

[skypair]

Ah, so your reasoning, which is damaged by the fall, trumps clear scripture. That makes sense.

"Reasoning damaged by the fall?" Do you mean now that I know evil as well as good, my reasoning is "damaged?" I don't think "reasoning" per se is damaged. It think there are many more options the sources of which are in question, don't you?

Can you find "reasoning is damaged" for me in the Bible?

skypair

 

[Martin]

Aside from a misinterpretation that the Greek gender will not support in Eph. 2:8, where it is ever stated that faith and/or repentance is a gift from God, in Scripture?

==Well first I, and some scholars, disagree with your position on Eph 2:8. However Scripture does, in other places, teach the same idea. In Scripture, for example, we are told that repentance is granted (2Tim 2:25), we are told that faith is granted to people (Phil 1:29), we are told that those who are appointed to eternal life believe (Acts 13:48), that only those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37), that no person may come to Jesus apart from the drawing of God (Jn 6:44), etc. Salvation is of the Lord.

What does understanding some theology, Reformed or another, have to do with whether or not Scripture teaches something? Just wonderin! Good question. Bible statements or theology?

==I was talking about having a discussion. It helps to understand something before a person tries to discuss it. Don't you agree? I mean if I knew nothing about the functionalist vs. intentionalist debate surrounding Hitler's "final solution" would I try to discuss it with someone who held to one of those two positions? Of course not. I would study up on the subject and then try to have discussions.

 

[Martin]

If God believes in God --- well, that goes without saying, right? So from where does believ come?? From the mind God has given us and the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

==The Bible teaches that both repentance and faith are granted by God to the elect. No person can come to Christ apart from the direct, saving, drawing of the the Spirit of God (Jn 6:44).

There is "will," then there is intellect and emotion. Intellect is supposed to direct will. Do you make decisions based on only what you know? Do you only believe what you already think, never taking into account anything or anyone else?? I don't think so.

==I don't know what that has to do with the point I made. So, I will repeat myself. No lost person, of their own freewill, will seek the Living God and believe (Rom 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, etc). A lost person, who is dead in sin, can do nothing to please God or to gain God's acceptance (Rom 8:8, Rom 4:4-5). Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9, Phil 1:29) from God to those He has chosen to save.

When we are saved, obviously we consider our faith and repentance to be gifts! And yes, it was in Tim that "God grant them repentance." You know what that means, right? That God has TAUGHT them something new and powerful (of the Spirit) and they repent!

==Granted means to allow, not to teach. If you grant something you allow it to be/happen.

When someone believes and is justified, God gives that person into the kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13). THEN those that "the Father gives the Son He will in no wise cast out." We aren't "given" until we believe.

==That is 100% wrong and unBiblical. It is 180 degrees backwards.

Jesus said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" -Jn 6:37

A person does not come to Christ (belief) unless they are given to Him by the Father first (see also Jn 10:28-29). According to Jesus, those the Father gives Him will come to Him. A person cannot come to Christ, believe in Christ, unless they were given to Him by the Father.

O, and in case you try to say that coming to Christ and believing in Christ are two different things I would urge you to consider John 17:2 where Jesus states:

"even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life" -Jn 17:2

Who does Jesus give eternal life to? Those who believe (Jn 3:16, 5:24, etc). Who are those who believe? Those the Father has given Jesus (Jn 6:44, 17:2). Which comes first belief or giving? According to Jesus it is the giving (by the Father to the Son) which comes first (Jn 6:37) then the person believes or comes to Christ.

This is in perfect agreement with Paul's words in Eph 1.

I've studied it and still don't understand why any believer would believe it.

==What reformed scholars have you studied?

Actually, the verse says ALL men are called and YOU appear to be leaving out God calling ALL men!

==John 6:44 says all men are called? Yes your were responding to my comment on John 6:44 which does not say all men are called.

Jesus said:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" -Jn 6:44

Those who are drawn are raised up on the last day. What does that mean? Those who are drawn are savingly drawn. It is an effective calling/drawing that always results in true salvation (Jn 6:37-40). Nobody who is given to Jesus, who is drawn in this way, fails to be saved. The verse says nothing about all men being drawn. Unless you were trying to talk about John 12:32? Clearly that verse is not saying that all men are drawn to Christ in a saving way (see what I just said about Jn 6:44). The verse is probably talking about "all men" in a general, not specific, sense.

All men being drawn does NOT mean all men believe. What? Are you kidding?? See, this is the weakness of Calvinism -- REDEFINTION of common terms! "Drawing" does not equal "believing ."

==The phrase all men can have a specific definition (every person) or it can have a general definition (not every single person). A good example of this would be Matthew 2:3. Was every single person in Jerusalem troubled? I doubt every single person even knew the wise men were there. Here "all" is being used in a general sense. Comparing John 6:44 with John 12:32 it is clear that 12:32 cannot be saying that all men are drawn to Christ in a saving way. Why? Because that would mean universalism since Jesus said, in 6:44, that those who are drawn are raised to life on the last day (see also 6:40). Therefore John 12:32 must be talking about some sort of different call or it is using the term "all" in a more general sense (ie..all types of people, people from all nations, etc).

 

[webdog]

Well first I, and some scholars, disagree with your position on Eph 2:8.

I'm curious if the greek is clear that "by grace you are saved through faith" is being referenced to by "that"...how can there be a disagreement?

for example, we are told that repentance is granted (2Tim 2:25),

Yes, if we confess He if faithful and just to forgive us. Repentance granted.

we are told that faith is granted to people (Phil 1:29)

Yes, those who come to Christ in faith WILL be accepted.

we are told that those who are appointed to eternal life believe (Acts 13:48)

Clearly not the meaning. "everyone who rides the ride buys a ticket". Your interpretation of that would be you need to purchase the ticket AFTER you ride the ride.

that only those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37),

We've been over that one already.

that no person may come to Jesus apart from the drawing of God (Jn 6:44), etc. Salvation is of the Lord.

This we both agree on :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

==Well first I, and some scholars, disagree with your position on Eph 2:8.

Might want to diagram it out. Grace is the gift of God in that passage.

we are told that faith is granted to people (Phil 1:29),

Suffering is a gift of grace, and grace is the gift of God. Faith is a lifestyle. How do we live a faithful lifestyle? Grace. We're given grace so that we may serve him acceptable. It's works.

that only those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37),

Context here? It's talking about works. Do you work for your spiritual salvation?

that no person may come to Jesus apart from the drawing of God (Jn 6:44), etc. Salvation is of the Lord.

See above.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Romans 1:11, and not to be confused with the gift/s that came with that other gospel.

Are you claiming that the spiritual gift spoken of in this verse is being saved?

I don't understand that latter part of your statement about the "other gospel".

Chapter 5:16 gives us the authority to preach the "free gift", and to receive the "free gift" given for justification of our many offenses.

I see justification in this verse, but nothing about spiritual salvation.

 

[EdSutton]

For that matter, is it ever stated that salvation is a gift?

I know that being born is never spoken of as a gift to the one being born.

If receiving eternal life equals "spiritual salvation" as I believe it does, Romans 6:23 states such.
And Eph. 2:8 states the same thing, effectively. Both grace and faith are 'feminine' nouns, in the Greek language. Hence

"By grace you have been saved through faith, and this thing is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." (Eph. 2:8, my rendering)
8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον (WHNU; Aland/Black/Martini/Metzger/Wikgren, UBS))
8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον (TR1550; TR1894; MT- Hodges/Farstad, Thomas Nelson, Inc.)

Both the words I have rendered as "this thing" (Gk.- τουτο) and the implied "it" (from the Gk. -το δωρον) are neuter, and in accordance with the principle that a pronoun must agree with its antecedent, as to gender, number, and case, cannot be referring to either 'grace' or 'faith' as the "gift of God, but must refer back to the entire "process" (for lack of a better word) of "For by grace you have been saved through faith". In other words, salvation is the gift of God, in this context(s) I have offered.
I disagree with ituttut that Rom. 1:11, has 'gift' as referring to salvation, for these Romans were "the called of Jesus Christ" (vs.6), "called saints" (vs.7), 'had faith' (vs.8), and had "mutual faith", already with Paul (vs. 12). Ergo, the 'gift' here in Rom. 1:11, must of necessity, be referring to something else.

Ed

 

[npetreley]

Might want to diagram it out. Grace is the gift of God in that passage.

Might want to study the Greek. Aside from the fact that "grace is the gift" is basically saying "the gift is the gift", which is basically saying nothing at all -- someone who examined the Greek in detail on this board enlightened me to the fact that not even "faith" is the gift.

The genders of the words do not match. The only possible conclusion after you examine the genders of the words is that the entire process, "are having been saved by grace through faith" is the gift. Faith is only part of the gift.

Edit: See above post. He beat me to pointing out the gender issue.

 

[ituttut]

Are you claiming that the spiritual gift spoken of in this verse is being saved?

I don't understand that latter part of your statement about the "other gospel".

The gospel of the Peter to the "circumcised", Acts 2:38.

I see justification in this verse, but nothing about spiritual salvation.

I do. I see the Grace of God.