The Problem of Regeneration Preceding Faith

[steaver]

Dodging I see...like I said no one is willing to go head on with 1 John 5.

"I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus." C.H. Spurgeon

Yea for spurgeon!

No dodging. You have to understand proper exegesis is scripture defining scripture. I know you like pet snippets that make you feel good about your position, but if you really want to be honest about 1John then you will have to consider John 8 and many other parts of scripture as well. This is why you and I have come to opposite interpretations. You must consider the full counsel of Gods Word.

 

[robustheologian]

Yea for spurgeon!

No dodging. You have to understand proper exegesis is scripture defining scripture. I know you like pet snippets that make you feel good about your position, but if you really want to be honest about 1John then you will have to consider John 8 and many other parts of scripture as well. This is why you and I have come to opposite interpretations. You must consider the full counsel of Gods Word.

Only one of us here understands proper exegesis...and it is not you my friend. You are not even taking your own "advice". You say use consider John 8 in interpreting 1 John 5 but you're not considering 1 John 5 in interpreting John 8. You're just inconsistent all over the place. Laugh

 

[steaver]

Only one of us here understands proper exegesis...and it is not you my friend. You are not even taking your own "advice". You say use consider John 8 in interpreting 1 John 5 but you're not considering 1 John 5 in interpreting John 8. You're just inconsistent all over the place. Laugh

Lol. 1John is perfectly clear in the context of the full counsel of Gods Word. Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. What's the problem? Saving faith comes through being indwelt by the Holy Spirit through rebirth. This is why you keep on believing and cannot ever stop believing. The Spirit is always in you testifying Jesus is Lord. You must distinguish between human generated faith that one has free will to exercise when being drawn to Christ and saving faith which is given to those who call upon the Lord and are given rebirth. John 8 Jesus said these Jews BELIVED ON HIM, human generated faith, but they were not born again as we can see by them picking up stones to kill him. They did not continue in His word unto salvation.

 

[robustheologian]

Saving faith comes through being indwelt by the Holy Spirit through rebirth.

You're half right now. So you admit that saving faith comes from regeneration. Maybe we're making progress. However, if you were to believe that you can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit before saving faith then it would imply that one doesn't need faith to have the Holy Spirit live inside them but Ephesians 1:13 says otherwise. Which is why regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, though connected, aren't the same thing.

 

[steaver]

You're half right now. So you admit that saving faith comes from regeneration. Maybe we're making progress. However, if you were to believe that you can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit before saving faith then it would imply that one doesn't need faith to have the Holy Spirit live inside them but Ephesians 1:13 says otherwise. Which is why regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, though connected, aren't the same thing.

The Spirit indwelling IS regeneration. We been over this. Johnny Mac and John Piper understand this and they are Calvinist through and through. This erroneous premise that regeneration and Spirit indwelling are two separate acts of God is what is causing so much of your misunderstanding of many passages.

 

[TCassidy]

Only one of us here understands proper exegesis.

Yes, steaver doesn't even know what exegesis really is.

Exegesis (/ˌɛksəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek ἐξήγησις from ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text.

Not a comparison of all statements on a given subject, but the exposition of a single text to determine the structural, grammatical, hermeneutical, and syntaxical meaning of the specific text.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Yes, steaver doesn't even know what exegesis really is.

Exegesis (/ˌɛksəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek ἐξήγησις from ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text.

Not a comparison of all statements on a given subject, but the exposition of a single text to determine the structural, grammatical, hermeneutical, and syntaxical meaning of the specific text.

Brother TCassidy and Brother Robust,

I am on your side as far as contending regeneration must precede faith in the gospel, but a problem verse I have always had reconciling with this doctrine is Ephesians 1:13, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".

In this verse it appears the soul believes the gospel, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, what do you make of this verse?

 

[TCassidy]

u make of this verse?

I just believe it. The Gospel is heard, the person is regenerated (1 John 5:1), he then believes, repents, and accepts, then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and secures and preserves his salvation.

The word Paul uses which is translated "seal" (εσφραγισθητε) is a legal term referring to an identifying mark placed on a letter or contract indicating the letter or contract is under the authority of the person who's mark or "seal" is on the letter or contract.

This seal gives us four things:

1. Security. The Holy Spirit of God Himself guarantees our salvation.
2. Authenticity. Those indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God are authentic Christians.
3. Ownership. We are no longer our own, we are bought with the price of Christ's sacrifice, and seal identifies Who we now belong to.
4. Authority. Our authority as ambassadors of Christ comes from our indwelling by the Holy Spirit.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I just believe it. The Gospel is heard, the person is regenerated (1 John 5:1), he then believes, repents, and accepts, then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and secures and preserves his salvation.

The word Paul uses which is translated "seal" (εσφραγισθητε) is a legal term referring to an identifying mark placed on a letter or contract indicating the letter or contract is under the authority of the person who's mark or "seal" is on the letter or contract.

This seal gives us four things:

1. Security. The Holy Spirit of God Himself guarantees our salvation.
2. Authenticity. Those indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God are authentic Christians.
3. Ownership. We are no longer our own, we are bought with the price of Christ's sacrifice, and seal identifies Who we now belong to.
4. Authority. Our authority as ambassadors of Christ comes from our indwelling by the Holy Spirit.

Brother TCassidy,

Thanks for your reply. Do you believe the "sealing" mentioned is when an individual is first regenerated or does this occur after regeneration? If it is the former this comes into conflict with regeneration preceding faith in the gospel because in the sequence the gospel is first heard and believed, then the person is subsequently sealed. Also, if you can please explain what you feel is the distinction of when one is "indwelt" as opposed to "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit and which one occurs first? Is this verse in your opinion that talks of the "sealing" referring to one or the other or both? Thanks for your thoughts.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[TCassidy]

Brother TCassidy,

Thanks for your reply. Do you believe the "sealing" mentioned is when an individual is first regenerated or does this occur after regeneration?

As I said in my above post, "the person is regenerated (1 John 5:1), he then believes, repents, and accepts, then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and secures and preserves his salvation."

Also, if you can please explain what you feel is the distinction of when one is "indwelt" as opposed to "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit and which one occurs first? Is this verse in your opinion that talks of the "sealing" referring to one or the other or both? Thanks for your thoughts.

God bless,

Brother Joe

One is regenerated then indwelt then sealed. Three events that, due to their happening so quickly, might appear to be simultaneous, but are, in fact, sequential.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

As I said in my above post, "the person is regenerated (1 John 5:1), he then believes, repents, and accepts, then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and secures and preserves his salvation."One is regenerated then indwelt then sealed. Three events that, due to their happening so quickly, might appear to be simultaneous, but are, in fact, sequential.

BrotherTCassidy,

I have to admit. I have never studied the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor did I know it is different from regeneration. Can you provide me some scriptures of the indwelling and your definition of it so to distinguish it from regeneration. Thank you for your time and thoughts on the matter.

 

[robustheologian]

The Spirit indwelling IS regeneration. We been over this. Johnny Mac and John Piper understand this and they are Calvinist through and through. This erroneous premise that regeneration and Spirit indwelling are two separate acts of God is what is causing so much of your misunderstanding of many passages.

I guess you didn't read (yeah that reading problem) again what I posted.

You said...

Saving faith comes through being indwelt by the Holy Spirit through rebirth.

So you admit there is some activity of the Holy Spirit before saving faith....as Calvinists have always taught.

But I told you that if that activity of the Holy Spirit before saving faith is the Holy Spirit indwelling, than that would mean you are saying that you can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit before saving faith.

So YES or NO...are you saying that you can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit before saving faith?? (Here's your chance to prove to everyone how mentally capable you are by answering with a YES or NO)

 

[robustheologian]

Brother TCassidy and Brother Robust,

I am on your side as far as contending regeneration must precede being born again, but a problem verse I have always had reconciling with this doctrine is Ephesians 1:13, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".

In this verse it appears the soul believes the gospel, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, what do you make of this verse?

BrotherJoseph there is no better way to answer this than what TCassidy has stated.
As far as scriptural proof, Scripture shows us an order of salvation and of course Scripture is in harmony with itself.
We know we are justified by faith (Eph. 2:8-9) so of course faith precedes justification.
We know that regeneration precedes faith (1 John 5:1) so now we have regeneration, faith, and then justification.
As you noted, Ephesians 1:13 shows that being sealed with the Holy Spirit comes after faith. "Seal" (σφραγίζω) in Eph. 1:13 means to mark or confirm. Confirm what? Confirm that we are adopted as God's children (Rom. 8:16-17). If we make out being sealed prior to being justified, what would the Holy Spirit be confirming? Nothing. Therefore being sealed (in Eph. 1:13) must follow justification and adoption...which is preceded by faith which is preceded by regeneration.

So now the order of salvation that we have is:
regeneration (1 John 5:1);
faith;
justification (Eph. 2:8-9);
adoption (Rom. 8:16-17);
and the sealing of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13).

Hope this helps.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In Ezekiel 37, you find the Prophet Ezekiel in a quandary. He has been led by the Spirit of the Lord into a valley full of bones, yea, very dry. Left to themselves, these bones had no hope of ever living again...ergo, the bones were 'very dry'. The Lord asked Ezekiel “Son of man, can these bones live?” To which Ezekiel replied "Sovereign Lord, you alone know." The Lord then commanded Ezekiel to prophesy "Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord!" Those who say God commands people to do what they can not do should stumble at this command. How can these dry bones 'hear the word of the Lord' and live? How can they? These bones had no ears, and yet the Lord cruelly command these old dried up bones to 'hear the word of the Lord'? What is impossible with man is possible with God.[Matt. 19:26] So as Ezekiel prophesied So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.[vss 7,8] Right here we see that these bones responded to the word of the Lord through Ezekiel's prophesying, yet at this juncture, there was no breath in them. Then here comes another thing where the Lord says Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' " Here was an exceedingly great army of people who had been slain, had deteriorated to their very bones, had no hope within themselves of ever living again. Yet, God, in His sovereign way, brought the dead to life without any assistance from the dead. As we can read So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. This is a picture of regeneration, God at work bringing the dead to life without any help from them that are/were dead.
References for Ezekiel 37:10

• Cross References

• 11 37:10 - S Eze 12:7
• 12 37:10 - Rev 11:11

 

[steaver]

Brother TCassidy and Brother Robust,

I am on your side as far as contending regeneration must precede being born again, but a problem verse I have always had reconciling with this doctrine is Ephesians 1:13, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".

In this verse it appears the soul believes the gospel, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, what do you make of this verse?

I'm sorry, but it simply amazes me that Calvinism, which believes it has the perfect theology and pats itself on the back, totally misses the fact that Regeneration IS being Born-Again.

Regeneration, born-again, conversion, Holy Spirit indwelling, Holy Spirit seal, eternal life, Christ in you, saved.....ALL are what happens and is done in ONE instant by God alone, by grace alone, through faith alone. There is no chicken and then the egg mystery here.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

 

[steaver]

I guess you didn't read (yeah that reading problem) again what I posted.

You said...

So you admit there is some activity of the Holy Spirit before saving faith....as Calvinists have always taught.

But I told you that if that activity of the Holy Spirit before saving faith is the Holy Spirit indwelling, than that would mean you are saying that you can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit before saving faith.

So YES or NO...are you saying that you can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit before saving faith?? (Here's your chance to prove to everyone how mentally capable you are by answering with a YES or NO)

"Some activity of the Holy Spirit before saving faith"??? This is not a Calvinism exclusive you know. The Holy Spirit must draw before saving faith.

The activity of the Holy Spirit before saving faith is not the Spirit indwelling, it is the Spirit drawing.

So the answer would be NO. Did I pass master Ro? I sure hope everyone now knows I am mentally capable of, first knowing what a question actually is, and second, knowing how to pick between two answers. I must admit, that was a tough one though. I had to study those two answers for at least a couple of hours. Actually, I had to look them up in the dictionary just to make sure what they meant. Big words you know for us non-Cals. Just wondering, do you believe all Calvinist are Apostles?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I'm sorry, but it simply amazes me that Calvinism, which believes it has the perfect theology and pats itself on the back, totally misses the fact that Regeneration IS being Born-Again.

Regeneration, born-again, conversion, Holy Spirit indwelling, Holy Spirit seal, eternal life, Christ in you, saved.....ALL are what happens and is done in ONE instant by God alone, by grace alone, through faith alone. There is no chicken and then the egg mystery here.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Brother Steaver,

Thank you for catching my error! I agree that regeneration and being born again are the same thing, I meant to post to brother TCassidy and BrotherRobust that I am in their camp in that regeneration precedes faith in the gospel, but inadvertently said regeneration precedes being born again! Good catch! Of course I disagree with you that regeneration and conversion are the same thing or simultaneous. This is most obvious with the case of Cornelius.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[steaver]

Brother Steaver,

Of course I disagree with you that regeneration and conversion are the same thing or simultaneous. This is most obvious with the case of Cornelius.

God bless,

Brother Joe

How so?

 

[percho]

As I said in my above post, "the person is regenerated (1 John 5:1), he then believes, repents, and accepts, then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and secures and preserves his salvation."One is regenerated then indwelt then sealed. Three events that, due to their happening so quickly, might appear to be simultaneous, but are, in fact, sequential.

Exactly when? Precisely what regenerates one? Exactly how is one different relative to God when regenerated, yet un-indwelt?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

How so?

Brother Steaver,

Cornelius proves regeneration precedes faith in the gospel. First, notice that before he met Peter or heard the gospel, Cornelius "feared God with all his house" (Acts 10:2).. And from the Bible we know that those who fear the Lord possess God's salvation, "9 Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him" (Psalm 85:9). Unsaved men do not fear God, "18 There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18) and "The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes." (Psalm 36:1).

Second, see that Cornelius' prayers were "come up for a memorial before God" (Acts 10:4), before he heard or believed the gospel through Peter. And Proverbs 15:29 teaches us plainly that God only hears the prayers of the righteous, "29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous."

Third, observe that Peter acknowledged in Acts 10:34-35 that God had already accepted Cornelius before Peter ever met him. We read, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

God bless,

Brother Joe