Sorry brother, but never does it say he was regenerated. Calvinism has to assume that in order to survive. In fact we know from the scriptures regeneration began with the New Covenant.
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The Problem of Regeneration Preceding Faith
- Thread starter zrs6v4
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Sorry brother, but never does it say he was regenerated. Calvinism has to assume that in order to survive. In fact we know from the scriptures regeneration began with the New Covenant.
That's what I've been saying but you said...
?!?!? Do you see the inconsistency? You say saving faith comes from being indwelt by the Holy Spirit but then the activity of the Holy Spirit before saving faith isn't the Spirit indwelling. So what is it?!? Saving faith comes from the Holy Spirit indwelling yet indwelling is after saving faith?!? Brother, please tell me you see your inconsistency now.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Steaver, no it doesn't explicitly say "Cornelius was regenerated", but I must point out no scripture says that in the entire Bible about anybody, however it can be concluded that he was because it states he "feared God" (Acts 10:2) and Acts 10:4 tells us God heard his prayers. These two features are exclusive only to those who have already been born again. Are you going to maintain these can be two characteristics that can be said of an unregenerate? If so, please provide the scriptures to support your claim.
Abraham, David, Moses, Jacob, Isaiah, etc, etc, etc. All were unregenerated. Died in faith awaiting the promise of the New Covenant. Please provide the scriptures which state any of these where born-again, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
And no one has yet taken on John8:31. These Jews believed on Jesus, but did not continue in His word unto eternal life...
I'm not being inconsistent, but rather you are not making the correct distinctions of what I am saying. The Holy Spirit indwelling IS saving faith, IS regeneration, IS eternal life, IS born again, IS born of God, IS conversion, IS Christ in you. There IS no which came first the chicken or the egg controversy.
You say the activity before the Spirit indwelling is regeneration. This is unbiblical. I say the Spirit activity before the Spirit indwelling is the Spirit drawing unto Christ, which can and is resisted over and over again. One must receive Jesus Christ by calling upon His name and asking for His grace, mercy and forgiveness and then comes born again/regeneration. (Romans 10)
"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." (Luke 18:13)
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)
"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." (John 4:10)
The account provides the testimony of some unsaved Jews:
Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
These unsaved men testify to the "godliness" of Cornelius, that he had seen an angel, was warned of God, etc. But then what do they know of godliness? They rejected the Messiah and now worship in a false religion of legalism.
Here is Peter's testimony later on:
call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
--Peter was recounting the Lord's words to him. It was necessary for him to go to the house of Cornelius to hear the gospel, the Word of God first. There is no way he could be regenerated without hearing that gospel message. Impossible.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--He needed to hear Peter's message before he could be regenerated or saved.
I'm still waiting on some Scripture that speaks of regeneration following faith.
First you would have to accept the biblical teaching that regeneration began after Jesus Christ was glorified. That alone proves man's choice to believe God leads to man being born again by the Living Water. Abraham believed God, yet died in faith not having received the promise.
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Heb 11:13)
Calvinism says, 'oh no, they all received Jesus Christ as Lord and all the promises which Jesus Christ brought, including the promise of the Holy Spirit indwelling'.
As I said, you are not paying attention to the distinctions I have made.
DHK's post above has annihilated Calvinism's position on regeneration.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Ok brother Steaver,
I will play your game! Obviously we disagree about if Old Testament saints were regenerated, but so as not to get us off the topic of the OP, I will rephrase my question to you, Cornelius was saved before he heard the gospel as preached by Peter because Acts 10 records that his prayers were heard and that he feared God, since you maintain the doctrine that New Testament saints must first hear and believe the gospel preacher before they are saved then please disprove my position regarding Cornelius by showing scriptures to prove people who are in an unsaved state have their prayers heard by God and also fear God.
As far as your challenge of John 8 is concerned, there is no verse in John 8 that I am aware of that would with 100% certainty confirm the same Jews that attempted to kill Jesus are the same ones that believed upon Him earlier in the chapter. Even if your assumption is true, there is such a thing as a spurious faith. Scripture is clear that believing alone isn't sufficient evidence for one to conclude they are a child of God, James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble". True believers will also have good works, obey God's commandments, and exhibit love for the brethren. I would also point out, even if your assumption is true that the Jews that believed upon Him are also the ones that stoned him, it doesn't prove your position in the OP that regeneration does not precede belief in the gospel, because the Jews that attempted to stone Jesus were not children of God as Jesus called them, "of your father the devil".
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother DHK,
Good to see you posting again! I was wondering when you would jump in to aid brother Steaver!
Acts 10 tells us Cornelius feared God and also had his prayers heard before Peter arrived, thus he must have already been born again as these things cannot be said of the unsaved. If you disagree, as I challenged brother Steaver, I also challenge you, please show me scriptures that say these two characteristics also hold true for those who are unsaved (i.e examples of unsaved people having their prayers heard and fearing God).
He already gave you Cornelius.
You keep saying Cornelius was saved before Peter came to him. Here is how Peter recited the account of what happened to the Jews who contended with him for going into the Gentiles...
"And he (Cornelius) shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter. Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." (Acts 11)
Now you explain why the angel told Cornelius that Peter would tell him words by which he and his house shall be saved if Cornelius was already saved??
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
I am using Cornelius for my position saying he was already saved and DHK an you are the ones saying Cornelius was unsaved, but yet still feared God and God answered his prayers, therefore DHK or you need to give me examples outside of Cornelius from scripture to prove your claim that it is even possible for an unbeliever to do these two things. As my contention is simply that a saved person does fear God and has their prayers answered, as I am sure we can all agree on this and easily prove it from scripture, but as both of your claims go beyond this in saying that an unsaved person can fear God and have their prayers answered, the burden of proof is on you not me. Now please name me some people or admit you were wrong.
robustheologian said:
Really? Annihilated? Laugh Oh the desperation of the Arminian position!! Your argument runs flat and so you look for support from anywhere...no matter if it's insufficient. Roflmao
Peter claims Cornelius was not saved and needed to hear the gospel to be saved. So what are you going to do? Adjust your theology to that of Peter, or continue to stick with Cornelius being saved, against Peter's testimony, just because he feared God and had prayers heard?
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Hi Brother Steaver,
Paul said he was saved before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (1 Timothy 1:15)), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5)), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (1 Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).
Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more.
Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation.
The ETERNAL PHASE is God's plan and choice from eternity to save His elect from sin. This is why Christ is said to be the lamb slain before the foundation of the world and Paul declares God's, "purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9)
The LEGAL PHASE is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. "9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)
The VITAL PHASE is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ's death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives. "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" (Ephesians 2:1)
The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. This is when we hear the gospel, and we believe it. This is how one in their experience learns that they were legally justified by the death of Christ 2,000 years ago. 2 Timothy 1:10 shows us the purpose of the gospel saying Christ, "hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" . Notice it does not say the gospel brings life and immortality (this is what most believe), rather it says it brings it "to light" for the person. If I bring something to light, it was already there, just like if you turn a light on in a room it reveals to the person so they can see what was and is already in the room.
The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity with our bodies transformed and raised from the dead. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future. This is seen here, "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." (Romans 13:11)
So to answer your question, Cornelius was saved by Peter's preaching of the gospel, but only in the practical phase mentioned above, not legally as you contend. HIs conscience was purged from dead works to serve the living God after learning of how God legally saved him, thus he was saved in his experience. Your teachings do not have the "order of salvation" down, thus you error and have everything being the same and occurring at once (conversion, regeneration, justification, etc.)
God bless,
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Steaver,
Now that I have answered your question in my prior post, are you going to answer mine and provide examples outside of Cornelius of an unsaved person fearing God and having their prayers answered as you contend Cornelius was unsaved?
Now that I have answered your question in my prior post, are you going to answer mine and provide examples outside of Cornelius of an unsaved person fearing God and having their prayers answered as you contend Cornelius was unsaved?
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