The Promises to Abraham – the Promise of the Land

[Moriah]

Trevor,

Do you believe Jesus died for all, even those who died for thousands of years before he came, correct?

Do you also believe that the only sin that could condemn us is rejection of Christ, yes or no? If you say yes, then tell me, do you know that at the resurrection the righteous will be raised to eternal life, and the wicked to eternal punishment? Matthew 25:46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Therefore, if the righteous will be raised to eternal life, then they must already have known about Jesus! So, with your beliefs, how did those who have been dead for years, centuries, and longer, how can they be raised to righteousness? In addition, there are people, who never heard about Jesus, so how can the people have rejected him? How can they be raised to eternal punishment if they never had the chance to reject him?

You need to answer these questions so that I can continue showing you from the scriptures that we have conscious spirits that live on after the death of our physical bodies.

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist, The major difference between my belief and the Sadducees is that I believe in the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

Gen. 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth....

Gen. 1:24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature.....

Gen. 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.




Contemplate verse 20 and verse 24 in distinction to verse 26 carefully. The waters and the earth brought forth creatures with physical bodies, breath and life as the constitutent aspects of their nature and yet those constituent elements of their nature did not make them in "our image, after our likeness" because they were made in "the image of the INVISIBLE God."

Note in Genesis 2:7 that the dust of the ground and the body formed was not invisible. Being able to BREATH was no different than what the waters and the earth brought forth and that did not make them in the "image of God." Becoming a "living soul" was no different than what was brought forth by the waters and the earth.

God is a SPIRIT (Jn. 4:24) and that does not mean he is "wind" or oxygen. God imparted to man something of Himself and what was imparted was more than physical life as all creatures possessed that equally with man.

The image of God consisted in what God Himself imparted as the source of man's creation rather than what the waters and earth brought forth.

What made them like God "our image and our likeness" was that God himself "breathed into his nostrils the breath of LIVES" - Hebrew plural not singular!

He imparted into man something that neither waters or earth could impart and both could impart PHYSICAL LIFE. He gave them PHYSICAL LIFE but God is not PHYSICAL but SPIRITUAL. He gave them what He IS by nature - SPIRITUAL LIFE in the sense that God is a SPIRIT not a breath of air, or oxygen! It is this imparted SPIRITUAL nature that is like God. He gave them a SPIRIT that can fellowship with God who is SPIRIT.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

I do not like to bother debating with people who call themselves Christian, but do not believe the Bible is accurate. If I understand you correctly, you believe the Bible is corrupt with Pagan beliefs, is that what you are saying.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Bible is pure and correct, but by means of the introduction of Greek Philosophy including Platoism, the church became corrupt in their teaching. I stated the following:

A major reason why this shift occurred was the change from a belief in the mortality of man and the resurrection at the return of Christ when he was to establish the kingdom, to a belief in Greek philosophy that taught the pagan concept of immortal souls and going to heaven at death.

I would like to substantiate the above statement by a few statements from various sources. The first is by Albert Reville, Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France, writing in 1905:

Albert Reville: “The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought.”
“Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples of Jesus from the beginning.

It does not take much effort to find in an Encyclopaedia some reference to the introduction of Platonism into the early church and with it the belief in the immortal soul. The article on Plato and Platoism is surprisingly quite extensive, but the following is a small sample:

Encyclopaedia Brittanica: “The first Christian to use Greek philosophy in the service of the Christian faith was Justin Martyr (martyred c. 165), whose passionate rejection of Greek polytheism, combined with an open and positive acceptance of the essentials of Platonic religious philosophy and an unshakable confidence in its harmony with Christian teaching, was to remain characteristic of the Christian Platonist tradition. This was carried on in the Greek-speaking world by Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-c. 215), a persuasive Christian humanist, and by the greatest of the Alexandrian Christian teachers, Origen (c. 185-254). Although Origen was consciously more hostile to and critical of Platonic philosophy than either Justin or Clement, he was, nonetheless, more deeply affected by it. He produced a synthesis of Christianity and late Middle Platonism of remarkable originality and power, which is the first great Christian philosophical theology. In spite of subsequent condemnations of some of his alleged views, his influence on Christian thought was strong and lasting.”
“In his anthropology Augustine was firmly Platonist, insisting on the soul's superiority to and independence of the body. For him, as for Plotinus and Porphyry, it was axiomatic that body could not act on soul, for soul was superior in the hierarchy of reality, and the inferior cannot act on the superior.”

Collier’s Encyclopedia lists some of Plato’s teachings, and a few of these are:

Collier’s Encyclopedia: “Man is a composite being, consisting of a body with something moving it or animating it, which Plato called the soul. The soul inhabits the body as a pilot inhabits his ship, and uses the body as its instrument. When the soul thinks of itself as a body, it is the soul which does this, for the body cannot think.”
“All that we really know about death is that it is the separation of the soul from the body, together with the destruction of the latter. But the soul, since it is rational, cannot be destroyed with the body, since it is not material and composed of quantitative parts. ….every human soul is deathless. It does not dissipate like the body, but retires to some other region remote from ours.”

Hopefully no one will swallow the above philosophy from the small portions quoted, but the difference between the above and the Bible teaching of the mortality of man and hope of the resurrection from the dead at the return of Christ will be evident. This will also highlight the source of the wrong teaching of the immortality of the soul or immortal spirit after death as held by most churches today.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Moriah]

Greetings again Moriah, No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that the Bible is pure and correct, but by means of the introduction of Greek Philosophy including Platoism, the church became corrupt in their teaching. I stated the following:

I would like to substantiate the above statement by a few statements from various sources. The first is by Albert Reville, Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France, writing in 1905:
It does not take much effort to find in an Encyclopaedia some reference to the introduction of Platonism into the early church and with it the belief in the immortal soul. The article on Plato and Platoism is surprisingly quite extensive, but the following is a small sample: Collier’s Encyclopedia lists some of Plato’s teachings, and a few of these are: Hopefully no one will swallow the above philosophy from the small portions quoted, but the difference between the above and the Bible teaching of the mortality of man and hope of the resurrection from the dead at the return of Christ will be evident. This will also highlight the source of the wrong teaching of the immortality of the soul or immortal spirit after death as held by most churches today.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor,

Just answer on your own from your beliefs those questions I asked about how the dead are raised to eternal condemnation if they never heard of Jesus.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

Trevor,

Do you believe Jesus died for all, even those who died for thousands of years before he came, correct?

Do you also believe that the only sin that could condemn us is rejection of Christ, yes or no? If you say yes, then tell me, do you know that at the resurrection the righteous will be raised to eternal life, and the wicked to eternal punishment? Matthew 25:46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Therefore, if the righteous will be raised to eternal life, then they must already have known about Jesus! So, with your beliefs, how did those who have been dead for years, centuries, and longer, how can they be raised to righteousness? In addition, there are people, who never heard about Jesus, so how can the people have rejected him? How can they be raised to eternal punishment if they never had the chance to reject him?

You need to answer these questions so that I can continue showing you from the scriptures that we have conscious spirits that live on after the death of our physical bodies.

Trevor,

Just answer on your own from your beliefs those questions I asked about how the dead are raised to eternal condemnation if they never heard of Jesus.

Your questions are based upon your belief in the continuation of a man’s immortal spirit after death, not upon the Scriptures. The first principle of acceptance is that salvation is by belief of the gospel of Christ, not upon your speculations. I am interested in a discussion (not debate) upon the Word of God.
John 3:16-17 (KJV): 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Acts 8:5 (KJV): Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Acts 8:12 (KJV): But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Moriah]

Greetings again Moriah,


Your questions are based upon your belief in the continuation of a man’s immortal spirit after death, not upon the Scriptures. The first principle of acceptance is that salvation is by belief of the gospel of Christ, not upon your speculations. I am interested in a discussion (not debate) upon the Word of God.
John 3:16-17 (KJV): 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Acts 8:5 (KJV): Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Acts 8:12 (KJV): But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Kind regards
Trevor

That is a lie what you say about me.

Do you have something against debating? The scriptures tell us Paul debated. The scriptures also tell us Paul and Barnabus went in to sharp dispute and public debate. The scriptures tell us of other times Paul spoke boldly arguing persuasively. We are supposed to defend and confirm the gospel. We are supposed to command others not to teach false doctrines. We are to correct, instruct, and rebuke. We are to refute others who oppose sound doctrine. We are to contend for the faith. Do you know what contend means? A contender is a fighter. Now if you would stop reading all that material you read from men, and start reading the Bible, then maybe you would know the Truth.

See Acts 9:29; Acts 15:1; Acts 19:8; Philippians 1:7-8; 1 Timothy 1:3-4; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; Titus 1:9. And, Jude 3.

Now do you want to tell me how someone who lived and died before Jesus even came to earth can reject Jesus and be raised at the resurrection to eternal punishment.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

Now do you want to tell me how someone who lived and died before Jesus even came to earth can reject Jesus and be raised at the resurrection to eternal punishment.

If salvation is by believing the gospel, then rejection is by not believing the gospel. Note the gospel was preached to Abraham Galatians 3:8.

Kind regards
Trevor


Greetings again The Biblicist,

What made them like God "our image and our likeness" was that God himself "breathed into his nostrils the breath of LIVES" - Hebrew plural not singular!
He imparted into man something that neither waters or earth could impart and both could impart PHYSICAL LIFE. He gave them PHYSICAL LIFE but God is not PHYSICAL but SPIRITUAL. He gave them what He IS by nature - SPIRITUAL LIFE in the sense that God is a SPIRIT not a breath of air, or oxygen! It is this imparted SPIRITUAL nature that is like God. He gave them a SPIRIT that can fellowship with God who is SPIRIT.

I appreciate your view, but I have a different view of physical and spiritual. Man is physical and his thinking process occurs in a part of his physical being, in his head, in his brain. When his brain stops his thinking stops. He has a greater potential than the animals, as he has a moral capacity, in that he can respond to Divine ideas and allow the Divine character to be formed in him. God is invisible because man is not able to see Him and live. Jesus reveals the character of God to us and we are transformed when we behold him 2 Corinthians 3:17-18. We can only fellowship with God when we allow the word of God to dwell in our hearts by faith.

You have to be careful relying on the idiom or particular peculiarities of another language. All the animals also have this plural breath of lives. The NIV recognises this idiom and translates this correctly into English:
Genesis 1:30 (NIV): And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 2:7 (NIV): the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 7:21-22 (NIV): 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
Job 33:4 (NIV): The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again Moriah, If salvation is by believing the gospel, then rejection is by not believing the gospel. Note the gospel was preached to Abraham Galatians 3:8.

Kind regards
Trevor


Greetings again The Biblicist, I appreciate your view, but I have a different view of physical and spiritual. Man is physical and his thinking process occurs in a part of his physical being, in his head, in his brain. When his brain stops his thinking stops. He has a greater potential than the animals, as he has a moral capacity, in that he can respond to Divine ideas and allow the Divine character to be formed in him. God is invisible because man is not able to see Him and live. Jesus reveals the character of God to us and we are transformed when we behold him 2 Corinthians 3:17-18. We can only fellowship with God when we allow the word of God to dwell in our hearts by faith.

You have to be careful relying on the idiom or particular peculiarities of another language. All the animals also have this plural breath of lives. The NIV recognises this idiom and translates this correctly into English:
Genesis 1:30 (NIV): And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 2:7 (NIV): the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 7:21-22 (NIV): 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
Job 33:4 (NIV): The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sorry, but the Hebrew expressions are not the same in the passages you give. The passages dealing with animals simply say "nishmath chayyim" whereas Genesis 2:7 says "nishmath ruach chayyim." In both Genesis 2:7 and Job 33:4 "chayyim" is characterized by something directly from God being imparted.

Furthermore, the subject verb agreement in Genesis 1:30 and Genesis 7:21-22 calls for the plural as it has a plural subject not so in Genesis 2:7.

Job 33:4 has man not animals in view and it is the "chayyim" of the Almighty and The Almighty does not have lungs and air but refers to His own Spirit.

Finally, the image and likeness of God is not merely physical in regard to the brain because man can die spiritually without physical brain death. God said that in the very day he sinned "dying he would surely die." Ephesians 2:1 speaks of man being very much BRAIN ALIVE but yet having been DEAD spiritually as Jesus told Nicodemus what is born "OF SPIRIT IS SPIRIT" and what is born of flesh is flesh. Hence, Adam suffered another kind of death in the day he ate other than BRAIN death and a BRAIN LIFE sinner needs to be "born of the Spirit."

Therefore, SPIRITUAL LIFE was what God imparted to man as one aspect of the image of God and that SPIRITUAL image is what is "renewed" by new birth - born of Spirit is spirit.

The human "spirit" did not cease to exist when Adam sinned but ceased to be a medium for fellowship with God. They that worship God must worship Him "in spirit for God is Spirit." What that aspect of human nature became was a medium for demonic fellowship (Eph. 2:2-3). Death is not cessation but separation.

What your failure and all who believe like you is, is that you attempt to make man no different in essential nature than animal life. However, Solomon says the spirit of animals goes down while the spirt of man goes up. God is Spirit and God can exist in and out of a physical body as demonstrated by the incarnation and man was made in God's SPIRITUAL image and thus has the ability to exist in or out of a physical body. That is precisely why Paul calls the body our "taberncale" or "tent" in which we live and we can be "absent" or "present" in that tabernacle but either way always present with the Lord as the Lord indwells our body and when we leave the body we are "present with the Lord" not anihilated or complete cessation of being.

 

[Moriah]

Greetings again Moriah, If salvation is by believing the gospel, then rejection is by not believing the gospel. Note the gospel was preached to Abraham Galatians 3:8.

No, you did not answer the question. The question is how do you explain people are raised to condemnation for rejection of Jesus WHEN THEY NEVER HEARD OF JESUS.
Please explain soon, because I would love to tell you what the Word of God says.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

Sorry, but the Hebrew expressions are not the same in the passages you give. The passages dealing with animals simply say "nishmath chayyim" whereas Genesis 2:7 says "nishmath ruach chayyim." In both Genesis 2:7 and Job 33:4 "chayyim" is characterized by something directly from God being imparted.

Furthermore, the subject verb agreement in Genesis 1:30 and Genesis 7:21-22 calls for the plural as it has a plural subject not so in Genesis 2:7.

I appreciate your response. Your answer is made up of a number of parts that you connect together. If we can look at the above first and down the track if practical consider the other. Firstly let me state that I am not a Hebrew scholar and so I could be out of my depth, even in fully understanding what you are saying above, so please be patient with me. If I am wrong please correct me. Firstly the term “living soul” in Genesis 2:7 is essentially the same phrase as found for the animals, insects and birds in Genesis 1, so that they are all living souls. So the phrase in Genesis 2:7 does not teach or imply an immortal soul but simply a living creature.

Paul quotes 2:7 to compare a living soul with the spiritual body that the faithful will be changed into at the resurrection. The word “natural” and “soul” are cognate words in the Greek, and this verifies that a living soul is a natural or animal creature with life:
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (S# 5591) body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (S# 5591) body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (S# 5590); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Now you point out that the passages dealing with animals simply say "nishmath chayyim" which I interpret as “breath of lives”, while Genesis 2:7 says "nishmath ruach chayyim" " which I interpret as “breath of the spirit of lives”. But could you please check the following:
Genesis 7:15 (KJV):And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (S# 7307 ruach=spirit) of life.
Genesis 7:21-22 (KJV): 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life (=breath of spirit of lives), of all that was in the dry land, died.
So the phrase breath of spirit of lives is not exclusive to man, but in Genesis 7:21-22 it is also used of the animals and the phrase spirit of lives is used of the animals in Genesis 7:15.

If I am wrong in the above please correct me, but if you agree then this has a bearing upon the rest of your post as you connect your conclusion from Genesis 1-2 with Nicodemus and other aspects.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

No, you did not answer the question. The question is how do you explain people are raised to condemnation for rejection of Jesus WHEN THEY NEVER HEARD OF JESUS.
Please explain soon, because I would love to tell you what the Word of God says.

Feel free to post your Biblical understanding on this subject if you think it is important and relevant.

I prefer to start with what I said in previous posts that the gospel has been preached throughout the ages. For example starting in the Garden of Eden with the promise to Eve concerning the seed of the woman, expanded in the Promises to Abraham and then with the Promises to David and then through the preaching by Jesus and the Apostles. Those that believe the gospel will be saved, those that do not believe the gospel will be rejected.

God also has left a witness to mankind in the things that he created, and that when any man who lived came to contemplate the creation he should be convinced of God’s eternal power and wisdom. The sad record of the Scriptures and history is that when they came to realise these things, that man turned to idolatry and moral excess as depicted in Romans 1.
Romans 1:18-23 (KJV): 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Whatever our conclusions, we need to listen to what God has revealed and see in all of this His Wisdom, Mercy, Loving-kindness and Righteousness. So I will start with this, and ask first: Do we agree so far?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Moriah]

Our Spirits Live On After The Death Of Our Body

http://christiandefenseofthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/our-spirits-live-on-after-death-of-the-body/

Faith in Jesus Christ makes those belonging to God perfect, even those who died before Jesus’ ministry on earth. The Old Testament righteous people who died before Jesus came to earth, they did not in their time get to see the promised salvation through Jesus Christ, the grace that was to come (1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:19; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 4:1). Paul says about the faithful in the Old Testament times, “These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.” God’s grace through faith in Jesus made the spirits of the righteous, those who had died before Jesus, they in the spirit were made perfect together with Paul and the other first Christians (Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40). The Old Testament faithful were alive in the spirit watching from heaven. Paul says, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses…” Jesus also tells us Abraham waited to see his day, Abraham saw it and was glad (John 8:56). Abraham died, yet was alive in the spirit.

There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus…Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

You see, Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth. Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago. Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens. Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).

These scriptures show we have living, thinking spirits that live on after the death of the body. Some spirits go with those who disobey, and spirits of the righteous live in heaven. These scriptures show that our spirits live on, and how Jesus filled the whole universe.

Rejoice at Jesus saving us, and rejoice at knowing without a doubt that the Word of God tells us we have spirits that live on.

 

[TrevorL]

There is a strong connection between the promises made to Abraham and the promise made to David. The promise to Abraham defines the land that Abraham and his seed, Jesus Christ will inherit for ever, and this flows on to all the faithful who believe into Christ and are baptised. The promise to David gives additional details concerning this promised seed. He would be the seed of David as well as the seed of Abraham. God would be the father of this seed, and the promised seed will sit upon the throne of David for ever.

Here are some of the relevant scripture:
2 Samuel 7:12-16 (KJV): 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

Matthew 1:1 (KJV): The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matthew 19:27-28 (KJV): 27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 2:29-36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Romans 1:1-3 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Thus clearly both OT and NT believers looked for the fulfilment of the land promise when Jesus will return to sit upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. Consider also Isaiah 2:1-4, Jeremiah 3:17, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Matthew 5:35, Acts 1:11, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist, I appreciate your response. Your answer is made up of a number of parts that you connect together. If we can look at the above first and down the track if practical consider the other. Firstly let me state that I am not a Hebrew scholar and so I could be out of my depth, even in fully understanding what you are saying above, so please be patient with me. If I am wrong please correct me. Firstly the term “living soul” in Genesis 2:7 is essentially the same phrase as found for the animals, insects and birds in Genesis 1, so that they are all living souls. So the phrase in Genesis 2:7 does not teach or imply an immortal soul but simply a living creature.

Trevor, you are missing the point. No one denies that both man and animals share in common PHYSICAL NATURAL life. However, man is created with the capability of SPIRITUAL SUPERNATURAL life.

However, no animial shared in common with man direct origin of his spirit with God. God's "spirit" is not the same as the animal "spirit." God's "soul" is not the same as the "soul" of animals. God is described as a "spirit" and "soul" that exists without a physical body and thus without physical life but is "spirit" and is sustained by SPIRITUAL life. Only man is made in the "image" and "likeness" of God and receives his inner nature directly from God. All other physical life originated from the "waters" or from the "earth. Man's body came from the earth but his spirit came directly from God.

Second no animal "spirit" or "soul" can worship and fellowship with God as they do not have the "spirit" capacity. Worship of God must be done in "spirit" for God's is a "spirit." That is not speaking of oxygen. That is not speaking of attitude but that is speaking an aspect of human nature unlike animals because when Jesus says God is "a spirit" he is defining the substance of God's nature not his attitude or breathing ability. When Paul says "our spirit bears witness with His Spirit" he is not describing oxygen or breathing ability but describing a common substance and nature that makes man and God able to fellowship one with the other. It is in this common spiritual substance or nature where man is renewed in the image of God by regeneration and where he previously was spiritually dead while physically alive. Hence, this cannot refer to oxygen or ability to breath air as the lost condition of man breathed air but was dead spiritually. Death spiritually is not cessation of spirit but separation from God's Spirit, no spiritual union with God, but there was previous spiritual union with demons (Eph. 2:2 "now worketh IN the children of disobedience").

Paul quotes 2:7 to compare a living soul with the spiritual body that the faithful will be changed into at the resurrection. The word “natural” and “soul” are cognate words in the Greek, and this verifies that a living soul is a natural or animal creature with life:
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (S# 5591) body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (S# 5591) body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (S# 5590); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

You are confusing a change in the body with the immaterial nature of man. Our physical body is the soul's vehicle of expression to the outer physical world and it is designed to interact with the physcial natural world (five senses; natural drives - sex, food, pleasure, etc.) while our spirit is the vehicle of expresssion to the spiritual world.

The spirit of man has been regenerated but not his body because "what is born of Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). It is our "inward man" that has been begotten of God not our outward physical body. Our spirit is in union with God and therefore has "eternal life" now in our spirit and that is why the believer shall "never die" even when the physical body dies.

Adam was made a "living SOUL" meaning that his body depended upon NATURAL sustenance for life. His body became subject to death and corruption. In the resurrection our physical body will no longer be subject to corruption and death and therefore no longer derive its life from NATURAL sustenance but will derive its life from the same source that our spirit now derives its life - SPIRITUAL - union with God.

Hence, Paul is dealing with the very change of our MATERIAL nature from a NATURAL derived subsistance to a SPIRITUAL derived subsistance in keeping with our spirit that has already been born of the "Spirit" and is thus being sustained by union with God and therefore we now have SPIRITUAL LIFE which is ETERNAL LIFE within our IMMATERIAL nature and thus unable to die spiritually when our physical body dies. However, in the resurrection the MATERIAL aspect of our human nature will derive its LIFE not from that which is NATURAL but from that which is SPIRITUAL or the same source as our Spirit and therefore will never again be subject to corruption and death because it is no longer dependent upon NATURAL means to sustain its life.

Now you point out that the passages dealing with animals simply say "nishmath chayyim" which I interpret as “breath of lives”, while Genesis 2:7 says "nishmath ruach chayyim" " which I interpret as “breath of the spirit of lives”. But could you please check the following:
Genesis 7:15 (KJV):And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (S# 7307 ruach=spirit) of life.
Genesis 7:21-22 (KJV): 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life (=breath of spirit of lives), of all that was in the dry land, died.
So the phrase breath of spirit of lives is not exclusive to man, but in Genesis 7:21-22 it is also used of the animals and the phrase spirit of lives is used of the animals in Genesis 7:15.

The plural "lives" is grammatically necessary when the subject is plural as in Genesis 7. However, in Genesis 2:7 there is a SINGULAR subject and yet plural "lives." That is the pecularity of the plural in Genesis 2:7. Additionally, this plural "lives" comes directly from God breathing into man these "lives." God does not possess lungs and oxygen and so what is imparted directly from God to man is not AIR but complex lives that originates from God that makes man distinct and different from all other physical living beings. He not only has soulish life or life dependent upon natural substances (food, air, water, comfort) but he has spiritual life dependent upon spiritual union with God.

Man is the only creature made by God that lives on a DUAL plane of both NATURAL and SPIRITUAL and consists of a MATERIAL and IMMATERIAL natures that can fellowship with the EXTERNAL seen physical world as well as the INTERNAL unseen spiritual world. Man is created like God who can subsist in as well as outside of a physical body as clearly seen in the incarnation of the Son of God. Hence, his "spirit" and "soul" are like God's "spirit" and "soul" that return to God but the "spirit" and "soul" of all other material beings are strictly limited to lower natural life and therefore return at death to lower natural sources.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I appreciate your response. I feel a little overwhelmed with the detail of your reply, and am not able or perhaps willing to unravel the differences we hold. What you state is different to the way I believe and read the Scriptures. I do not believe that man has received a special portion of God’s spirit, different from the animals. Perhaps our greatest difference is that you consider “spirit” in relation to man as a separate entity, or able to be separated and man’s consciousness thereby continued after death. I believe that man is a whole man, not made up of parts that are separated at death. I believe that when man dies his thoughts cease.

Man was created with the capacity to receive Divine ideas and respond as clearly taught in Genesis 1:26-27. The spirit mind is generated in us when we believe the gospel. We then have two modes of thinking in our brains. That which arises naturally, and that which arises from the changed mode of thinking from the gospel. These are sometimes spoken of as flesh versus spirit, for example in Galatians 5. Salvation then is by faith, and Jesus will grant these everlasting life when he raises the dead at his return and they will inherit the kingdom prepared, including the land promise.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I appreciate your response. I feel a little overwhelmed with the detail of your reply, and am not able or perhaps willing to unravel the differences we hold. What you state is different to the way I believe and read the Scriptures. I do not believe that man has received a special portion of God’s spirit, different from the animals. Perhaps our greatest difference is that you consider “spirit” in relation to man as a separate entity, or able to be separated and man’s consciousness thereby continued after death. I believe that man is a whole man, not made up of parts that are separated at death. I believe that when man dies his thoughts cease.

Man was created with the capacity to receive Divine ideas and respond as clearly taught in Genesis 1:26-27. The spirit mind is generated in us when we believe the gospel. We then have two modes of thinking in our brains. That which arises naturally, and that which arises from the changed mode of thinking from the gospel. These are sometimes spoken of as flesh versus spirit, for example in Galatians 5. Salvation then is by faith, and Jesus will grant these everlasting life when he raises the dead at his return and they will inherit the kingdom prepared, including the land promise.

Kind regards
Trevor

In other words, regardless of the Biblical evidence contrary to your beleif, you will continue in your belief!

Hebrews 4:12 along with 1 Thessalonians 5:23 both distinguish between the material and immaterial aspect of human nature and both make a clear distinction in the immaterial aspect of human nature that demand that "spirit" and "soul" are not snynonomous except they are both spirit in substance in contrast to physical in substance and that they do not represent "wind" and "life" but two seats of consciousness within man (self-consciousness; spirit world consciousness).

Hebrews 4:12 is presented by the writer to prove that nothing is hid from God's Word and that the Word of God can distinguish between things that differ.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Wouldn't you agree there is a valid distinction between the "joints" and "morrow" and "thoughts" versus "intents" of the heart?

In order for you to deny a valid distinction between "soul and spirit" you will have to equally deny there is a valid distinction between "joints and morrow" and "thoughts and intents"!

Hence, there is no valid basis to deny that Hebrews 4:12 clearly states that the "spirit" of man must be distinguished from the "soul" of man.

Now, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 demands that all three aspects of human nature "spirit" and "soul" and "body" are all objects of sanctification by the Spirit of God.

1 Thes. 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Don't you think it is a little bit absurd and rediculous to pray that "breath" and "life" be preserved "blameless" in regard to SANCTIFICATION unto the coming of the Lord?

Hence, sanctification cannot be interpreted merely as being set apart to be preserved as far as duration but rather Paul is demanding a MORAL separation and preservation of "spirit and soul" when he uses the term "sanctify" with "blameless."

In Genesis 2:7 God imparted spiritual substances in the same sense as He himself is attributed a "soul" and "spirit" by the Scriptures WITHOUT A BODY. He does not possess "wind" or "breath" and his "life" is ETERNAL and can exist in and outside of a physical body as proved in the incarnation.

Likewise Paul demands that the body is nothing more than a tent, a house for the human spirit that can exist inside this house or he can depart from this house and continue to exist in the presence of the Lord in heaven.

2 Cor. 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Paul uses two Aorist infintives above to show identical action with no time lapse between being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

The Bibilical and grammatical evidence against your position is overwhelming. You simply do not have a single solitary proof text to support your position which cannot be easily demonstrated by its context to have been twisted in order to make it fit your theory.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

In other words, regardless of the Biblical evidence contrary to your belief, you will continue in your belief!

I appreciate your response. No, not really. I baulked in a limited time at trying to trace the exact usage in the OT of “lives” to test what you were saying had any validity whatsoever. And most of what you were saying did not square with what I have learnt both in Genesis 1-3 and the rest of Scripture.

I find it very difficult to discuss passages that do not to my mind and experience clearly and unequivocally teach what you are saying. I have in other posts defined some aspects of my belief, how that man was sentenced to return to the dust, and he waits in the dust for the resurrection Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2. Again I am limited in time and will consider more carefully your previous and present posts over the next day or more.

In the meantime we enjoyed the exposition of Isaiah 2 last night in our Bible Class. This confirmed very strongly and encouragingly the view that Isaiah 2:1-4 clearly speaks of the Kingdom when Jesus will return to sit upon the throne of David in Jerusalem, and reign over converted natural Israel and the nations. The second half of Isaiah 2 speaks of the necessity of judgement on Israel and the nations, and it speaks of an earthquake to occur before the events of Isaiah 2:1-4 are fulfilled. In this respect it is very much the same as Zechariah 14.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

And most of what you were saying did not square with what I have learnt both in Genesis 1-3 and the rest of Scripture.

Is there a possibility that what you have been taught is wrong?

I have in other posts defined some aspects of my belief, how that man was sentenced to return to the dust, and he waits in the dust for the resurrection Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2.

These scriptures only teach that the "body" returns to dust not the immatieral part of man as the Bible explicitly says that the spirit of man returns to God but the spirits of animals does return to dust:

Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Technically only the "body" is said to return to dust! The spirit of beasts go downward to dust but man's spirit does not. David speaks of flying away when he is "cut off" from the land of the living. Paul says that he will be present with the Lord when he leaves the body.

Paul's langauge speaks of something living in a house and leaving that house and going to be present with the Lord.

 

[Moriah]

Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?



Technically only the "body" is said to return to dust! The spirit of beasts go downward to dust but man's spirit does not. David speaks of flying away when he is "cut off" from the land of the living. Paul says that he will be present with the Lord when he leaves the body.

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. The scriptures says Who knows...
Solomon in Ecclesiastes is speaking through out Ecclesiastes about earthly things. The New Testament speaks to us about spiritual things.

Remember, many of the Jews missed the Messiah because they were expecting a King for an earthly reign. The New Testament has the revelation about what is spiritual.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I appreciate your latest post, but the following is a reply to some details of your earlier posts.

The plural "lives" is grammatically necessary when the subject is plural as in Genesis 7. However, in Genesis 2:7 there is a SINGULAR subject and yet plural "lives." That is the pecularity of the plural in Genesis 2:7. Additionally, this plural "lives" comes directly from God breathing into man these "lives." God does not possess lungs and oxygen and so what is imparted directly from God to man is not AIR but complex lives that originates from God that makes man distinct and different from all other physical living beings. He not only has soulish life or life dependent upon natural substances (food, air, water, comfort) but he has spiritual life dependent upon spiritual union with God.

Man is the only creature made by God that lives on a DUAL plane of both NATURAL and SPIRITUAL and consists of a MATERIAL and IMMATERIAL natures that can fellowship with the EXTERNAL seen physical world as well as the INTERNAL unseen spiritual world. Man is created like God who can subsist in as well as outside of a physical body as clearly seen in the incarnation of the Son of God. Hence, his "spirit" and "soul" are like God's "spirit" and "soul" that return to God but the "spirit" and "soul" of all other material beings are strictly limited to lower natural life and therefore return at death to lower natural sources.

I decided to check if any translation reflects the literal Hebrew of Genesis 2:7 “the breath of lives”. All of the following: AV, RV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, JB, NJB, NEB, Rotherham, Young’s Literal render it as “the breath of life” Rotherham adds this note in the mg:

literally “lives”. It is unsafe to build an argument on this plural. Cp. “faces” for “face” 1:2, and many other words.

Not only do you build an argument on the use of the word “lives”, you seem to help your cause along by adding the word “spirit” in Genesis 2:7 when it does not appear:

Genesis 2:7 says "nishmath ruach chayyim."

Could I ask you: What is the difference between a new-born baby that has not taken its first breath, and Adam when ready to take his first breath? Does God impart his spirit into a baby together with air when he takes his first breath?

Hebrews 4:12 along with 1 Thessalonians 5:23 both distinguish between the material and immaterial aspect of human nature and both make a clear distinction in the immaterial aspect of human nature that demand that "spirit" and "soul" are not snynonomous except they are both spirit in substance in contrast to physical in substance and that they do not represent "wind" and "life" but two seats of consciousness within man (self-consciousness; spirit world consciousness).

Hebrews 4:12 is presented by the writer to prove that nothing is hid from God's Word and that the Word of God can distinguish between things that differ.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Wouldn't you agree there is a valid distinction between the "joints" and "morrow" and "thoughts" versus "intents" of the heart?

In order for you to deny a valid distinction between "soul and spirit" you will have to equally deny there is a valid distinction between "joints and morrow" and "thoughts and intents"!

Hence, there is no valid basis to deny that Hebrews 4:12 clearly states that the "spirit" of man must be distinguished from the "soul" of man.

Each word in the Bible has a range of meaning, and this also depends on each context . In Galatians 5 it speaks of the conflict within a man between the flesh and the spirit. The spirit represents the thoughts in a man that are the product of the man affectionately believing the gospel. Here in Hebrews 4:12 it shows that the word of God is able to divide between that which originates from the flesh or soul, and that which originates from the spirit. This is similar to the use of spirit in Galatians 5, ‘flesh” versus “spirit”.

Man is the only creature made by God that lives on a DUAL plane of both NATURAL and SPIRITUAL and consists of a MATERIAL and IMMATERIAL natures that can fellowship with the EXTERNAL seen physical world as well as the INTERNAL unseen spiritual world. Man is created like God who can subsist in as well as outside of a physical body as clearly seen in the incarnation of the Son of God.

In Genesis 2:7 God imparted spiritual substances in the same sense as He himself is attributed a "soul" and "spirit" by the Scriptures WITHOUT A BODY. He does not possess "wind" or "breath" and his "life" is ETERNAL and can exist in and outside of a physical body as proved in the incarnation.

In both of the above you substantiate your view by reference to “the incarnation”. Not willing to open another large subject, but I would like to say that I do not believe in the incarnation. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is one God, the Father.

Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I have not commented on 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:6 but these do not prove that man has an immortal spirit that is conscious after death. Paul was waiting for the appearing of his Lord from heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor