The Promises to Abraham – the Promise of the Land

[Moriah]

You cannot go to revelation to support doctrine. These are SYMBOLS not literal and the 24 elders and four beasts are not symbols of animals but of the redeemed - Rev. 5:8-10.

What are you talking about? In addition, it does not matter if you say the horses are symbolic. What matters is that this is what John said he saw.

The Horses are symbols of God's judgmental powers creating havoc throughout the earth. No literal horse can do that.

The RIDER on the horse, not the horse! LOL

It is useless to discuss this or any other issue with you.

You say that, but you know that you want to continue debating with me.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I appreciate your explanation of Luke 1:35 and John 1:14. I was interested if you had an opinion on Luke 1:35, as I thought it would be one verse avoided by those who believe in the incarnation. I also appreciate your concern for my welfare expressed in Post #81, but be reassured I am very conscious of my position on this subject, and satisfied.

I was introduced in part to my present understanding of this subject nearly 49 years ago, and I remember the occasion, a Young People’s Study weekend, because it was the commencement of two of my “first loves”. One of these is this subject, especially as introduced in the OT and the other the start of my courting days of my wife. Both of these first loves have sustained me through many a difficult time.

I have decided not to pursue a discussion on this subject at present. Partly because it is not the subject of the thread, partly I prefer to discuss the positive aspects of my belief on this important and reverential subject. And also as stated to Moriah, due to some duties, and interests in other things including our Isaiah studies, I need to have a break for a while. Down the track if a thread appears with some aspects of this subject I may add a few positive comments.

I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this thread. I have found some of your responses challenging, and they have forced me to carefully consider many aspects. I also apologise for not responding to the rest of your Post #86. I hope you are not absolutely confident with your last comment: “That in and of itself destroys your whole position”.

Kind regards
Trevor

Just exactly what denominational background are you? You can't be a Baptist because Baptists do not deny the Trinity or eternal existence of the immaterial aspect of the human nature.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Dr. Walter,

Just exactly what denominational background are you? You can't be a Baptist because Baptists do not deny the Trinity or eternal existence of the immaterial aspect of the human nature.

I do not like stating a denomination as I believe that it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. I may not represent fully those with whom I at present associate, nor am I in a position to clearly and simply present and defend all the ideas generally held. My position in my immediate fellowship is as a librarian, not a speaker or expositor. Over the years I have been helped by many, from many associations, and others I have sadly needed to disagree with.

In recent years I was invited to two different Baptist churches. The first was supposedly to be about the second coming of Christ. Instead it was mainly singing and I was excluded as I did not have a hymn book and no one shared, and then the red-haired speaker got very fiery and worked up, stating that unless we repented we would burn in hell forever. The second occasion was better. I thought the talk good, but I could not join in with the content of some of the hymns.

I like many of the popular hymns, but disappointed with some of the words. I assume the last verse of “Abide with me” is teaching heaven going, and I am reticent to sing this:
“Hold Thou Thy cross before my closing eyes;
Shine through the gloom and point me to the skies.
Heaven’s morning breaks, and earth’s vain shadows flee;
In life, in death, O Lord, abide with me”

Concerning the gospel Paul says:
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Luke when summarising the preaching of Philip and the response of the Samaritans says:
Acts 8:5,8 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

These two elements comprise the gospel of the kingdom and the name, and I would agree with you that I have different beliefs on these two strands than many of the Baptists. It was in the hope that by looking at the Land Promise to Abraham that some may re-examine the Bible basis of the gospel established firmly in the promises to Eve, Abraham and David and forsake the traditions inherited as a result of the falling away from the Truth of the Gospel.

The hope of many Baptists is to go to heaven when they die. My hope is in the resurrection at the return of Jesus from heaven to establish his kingdom on earth. Many Baptists believe in the Trinity, though many do not understand the Trinity. I believe that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Both of these teachings are implicit in the following, and the speeches of Peter in Acts 2 and 3 are an expansion of Acts 8:5,12, the gospel of the kingdom and the name:
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The Father is the Lord of all. The hope of the early believers was in the return of Jesus, and the establishment of his kingdom upon earth, not in heaven going. They believed in the land promise to Abraham.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings Dr. Walter,
I do not like stating a denomination as I believe that it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. I may not represent fully those with whom I at present associate, nor am I in a position to clearly and simply present and defend all the ideas generally held. My position in my immediate fellowship is as a librarian, not a speaker or expositor. Over the years I have been helped by many, from many associations, and others I have sadly needed to disagree with.

In recent years I was invited to two different Baptist churches. The first was supposedly to be about the second coming of Christ. Instead it was mainly singing and I was excluded as I did not have a hymn book and no one shared, and then the red-haired speaker got very fiery and worked up, stating that unless we repented we would burn in hell forever. The second occasion was better. I thought the talk good, but I could not join in with the content of some of the hymns.

I like many of the popular hymns, but disappointed with some of the words. I assume the last verse of “Abide with me” is teaching heaven going, and I am reticent to sing this:
“Hold Thou Thy cross before my closing eyes;
Shine through the gloom and point me to the skies.
Heaven’s morning breaks, and earth’s vain shadows flee;
In life, in death, O Lord, abide with me”

Concerning the gospel Paul says:
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Luke when summarising the preaching of Philip and the response of the Samaritans says:
Acts 8:5,8 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

These two elements comprise the gospel of the kingdom and the name, and I would agree with you that I have different beliefs on these two strands than many of the Baptists. It was in the hope that by looking at the Land Promise to Abraham that some may re-examine the Bible basis of the gospel established firmly in the promises to Eve, Abraham and David and forsake the traditions inherited as a result of the falling away from the Truth of the Gospel.

The hope of many Baptists is to go to heaven when they die. My hope is in the resurrection at the return of Jesus from heaven to establish his kingdom on earth. Many Baptists believe in the Trinity, though many do not understand the Trinity. I believe that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Both of these teachings are implicit in the following, and the speeches of Peter in Acts 2 and 3 are an expansion of Acts 8:5,12, the gospel of the kingdom and the name:
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The Father is the Lord of all. The hope of the early believers was in the return of Jesus, and the establishment of his kingdom upon earth, not in heaven going. They believed in the land promise to Abraham.

Kind regards
Trevor

You seem to be a nice enough fella. Your theology is easy to disprove. What is extremely hard is to get you to deal with the scriptural proof objectively and honestly. The evidence against your interpretations are abundant but getting you to just objectively deal with them is impossible.