The Promises to Abraham – the Promise of the Land

[The Biblicist]

In both of the above you substantiate your view by reference to “the incarnation”. Not willing to open another large subject, but I would like to say that I do not believe in the incarnation. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is one God, the Father.

No wonder you do not possess the capability to discern the Word of God. You worship another god and therefore are led by "another spirit" and have believed in "another Jesus" and thus embraced "another gospel."

There is no sense in discussing anything more until we discuss who Jesus Christ really is because from my perspective you are an idolater.

 

[Moriah]

No wonder you do not possess the capability to discern the Word of God. You worship another god and therefore are led by "another spirit" and have believed in "another Jesus" and thus embraced "another gospel."

There is no sense in discussing anything more until we discuss who Jesus Christ really is because from my perspective you are an idolater.

Trevor only sees what is earthly and worldly. His religion is a doctrine of death. Many of the Jews missed their Messiah because they expected a King with an earthly reign.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

No wonder you do not possess the capability to discern the Word of God. You worship another god and therefore are led by "another spirit" and have believed in "another Jesus" and thus embraced "another gospel."

There is no sense in discussing anything more until we discuss who Jesus Christ really is because from my perspective you are an idolater.

I am willing to discuss a few aspects of the above. But in the meantime could you please give a simple explanation of Luke 1:35 as quoted in my previous post. Looking at a few aspects from your earlier post.

Is there a possibility that what you have been taught is wrong?

Yes, but I have more confidence in what I already believe than the concept of immortal souls or spirits, especially when looking at Genesis 1-3.

These scriptures only teach that the "body" returns to dust not the immaterial part of man as the Bible explicitly says that the spirit of man returns to God but the spirits of animals does return to dust:
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Technically only the "body" is said to return to dust! The spirit of beasts go downward to dust but man's spirit does not. David speaks of flying away when he is "cut off" from the land of the living. Paul says that he will be present with the Lord when he leaves the body.

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. The scriptures says Who knows...
Solomon in Ecclesiastes is speaking through out Ecclesiastes about earthly things. The New Testament speaks to us about spiritual things.
Remember, many of the Jews missed the Messiah because they were expecting a King for an earthly reign. The New Testament has the revelation about what is spiritual.

I will let you two decide where the spirits of beasts go. You seem to define that “spirit” is immaterial and are of necessity immortal. Perhaps Moriah believes that the spirits of his cat and dog will be with him in heaven. I am a bit scared as my daughter’s cat did not like me, and had to be locked away when I visited!!! Being a bad cat he might be in hell waiting to terrify me when I go below. If the spirit of man goes to heaven, is heaven where the good and bad spirits go? I thought the bad spirits went to hell.

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away

There is a danger taking every fine detail of Hebrew poetry to overlay your belief in an immortal soul or spirit. There is a poetic parallel, and “fly away” is parallel to “cut off”.
Job 20:8 (KJV): He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.
Job 34:15 (KJV): All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

I do not like modern, non-literal translations, but occasionally they give an interpretation consistent with the context:
Psalm 90:10 (CEV): We can expect seventy years, or maybe eighty, if we are healthy, but even our best years bring trouble and sorrow. Suddenly our time is up, and we disappear.
Psalm 90:10 (GNT): Seventy years is all we have—eighty years, if we are strong; yet all they bring us is trouble and sorrow; life is soon over, and we are gone.
Even these translators who most probably believe in heaven going, do not in any way suggest that the Psalmist is speaking of heaven going. This is talking about the generation that came out under Moses. They failed and became hard of heart, and could not enter into God’s rest because of unbelief. But you want to suggest that God judges and rejects them on earth and then welcomes them with open arms into heaven the moment they die. God is consistent in all his ways, and the theory of immortal souls does not agree with the righteousness and holiness of God.

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

This parable uses the Pharisees’ teaching as a basis for a parable, but I do not accept that Jesus is endorsing their teaching. Is Abraham’s bosom heaven? The beggar’s name is Lazarus, and at the end of the parable Jesus speaks of resurrection. Soon after this Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead to clearly teach his own beliefs, and prefigure his own resurrection. Jesus taught the resurrection not immortal souls or spirits.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Paul says that he will be present with the Lord when he leaves the body.
Paul's language speaks of something living in a house and leaving that house and going to be present with the Lord.

[/quote]
When speaking to the Corinthians he is using an extended figure of a tabernacle. He is not talking of going to heaven, but the change from our mortal body to an immortal spiritual body at the resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5:2-4 (KJV): 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul’s choice when speaking with the Philippians was whether to continue ministering to their needs, or to depart and be with Christ. Paul’s next conscious moment after death will be the resurrection at the appearing of Christ.
2 Timothy 4:8 (KJV): Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

Trevor only sees what is earthly and worldly. His religion is a doctrine of death. Many of the Jews missed their Messiah because they expected a King with an earthly reign.

I honestly believe that as the Jews at the first advent did not understand the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus, so the so-called Christian world of today will not appreciate the appearing of Christ to establish the throne of David in Jerusalem and reign over the world in peace. To believe in the resurrection is not a doctrine of death but of life, and that in fulfilment of the land promise to Abraham and his seed, and the sure mercies of David.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Moriah]

Greetings again Moriah, I honestly believe that as the Jews at the first advent did not understand the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus, so the so-called Christian world of today will not appreciate the appearing of Christ to establish the throne of David in Jerusalem and reign over the world in peace. To believe in the resurrection is not a doctrine of death but of life, and that in fulfilment of the land promise to Abraham and his seed, and the sure mercies of David.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus is ruling now.

You do have a doctrine of death, for you proclaim that you die, but Jesus says 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

You reject the life Jesus speaks. You believe in what is earthy and passing, and you hope for a resurrection one day until you cannot hope anymore, and that is physical death, and according to you, it is a spiritual death too.

I debate the shortest amount of time with a Mormon, because there is one scripture that if they debate against, it shows that there is no reasoning with them.

As for Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, and Christadelphians...I debate with them not much longer than that of the Mormons. If after reading the scriptures I gave in this thread about the life of the spirit Jesus gives to those who believe, and one still does not believe, then they are rejecting that life. Then what is the point of discussing?

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,
I am willing to discuss a few aspects of the above. But in the meantime could you please give a simple explanation of Luke 1:35 as quoted in my previous post. Looking at a few aspects from your earlier post.

John 1:1,14,18 all demand PRIOR existence of The Word to being "tabernacled" in a human form. Luke 1:35 expresses in simple terms how the Preexistent Word "became" (Jn. 1:14) flesh and dwelt among us. As you know both the father and mother contribute DNA in conception of a child. Mary contributed the HUMAN DNA but God the Father "gave" His Son, the preincarnate Word or provided the Divine DNA in this conception. "A child is born" but a "Son is GIVEN."

This is how the Preexistent Word "became" flesh and tabernacled among us.

I will let you two decide where the spirits of beasts go. You seem to define that “spirit” is immaterial and are of necessity immortal.

Moriah is wrong! Solomon is not doubting or denying where the spirits of man versus beast go. Solomon is writing from the perspective of one who lives "under the sun" and not from one who has been in heaven or on the other side of death.

No human living "under the sun" knows by personal experience. However, take note that he distinguishes the "spirit" of man and beast from their bodies and declares the existence of the "spirit" beyond the physical death of the body and its return to dust (vv. 19-20).

Matthew 10:28 proves that the "soul" cannot be killed by men but continues to exist in spite of them killing the body. Jesus distinguishes between the body and the soul when he says "BOTH" will be rendered useless (apolummi) by God in Gehenna. In the mean time BETWEEN physical death and eternal judgement man did not kill the "soul" when he killed the body and so the "soul" continues to exist. The "soul" is spiritual in substance.

Second, both the good and evil spirits of men return to God who then disposes of them according to His revealed word. He sends the evil soul to hades and the good to be with him in heaven.

Where do you find that Luke 16 and the story of Lazerus and the rich man is ever called a "parable"? What parable do you ever find where any individual is ever named? Moses and the prophets are not parabolic in nature? Abraham is not parabolic in nature! The purpose of a parable is to provide a parallel illustration taken from a REALISTIC circumstance not a fictious one! Hence, a "sower" was REALISTIC in their culture! Hence, a "husbandman" was REALISTIC in their culture. Parables ALWAYS took things that were REALISTIC in their own experiences. Furthermore, parables were used to reinforce REAL and and AUTHENTIC truths. What REAL and AUTHENTIC truth would this story of two men AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH would convey if death simply ended it all? Answer - NOTHING!

Is Abraham’s bosom heaven?

Do you know what this expression meant to the Jews in Christ's day? Apparently not! John leaned upon the "bosom" of Christ when administering the Lord's Supper. John claimed that he was the one whom Christ "loved." Abraham was the role model and "father" of the Jewish nation and death was expressed for the pious Jew to go "be with their fathers" of which Abraham was regarded as the greatest and to be in the "bosom of Abraham" was the expression that conveyed death not in the terms of fear and hopelessness but in the terms of being received in love.

The beggar’s name is Lazarus, and at the end of the parable Jesus speaks of resurrection. Soon after this Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead to clearly teach his own beliefs, and prefigure his own resurrection. Jesus taught the resurrection not immortal souls or spirits.

Your connecting one Lazerus to the other Lazerus is mere wishful thinking. The resurrection is not being taught in this story. What is being taught in this story is that only prior to physical death is there opportunity to determine your post-death destination and if the Word of God is the only witness that God provides men and there will be no one sent back from the other side to them. He is denying that even if one were to be resurrected from the dead it would help influence brothers to submit to God's Word. Both the resurrection of his friend Lazerus and Himself proves this conclusion.

When speaking to the Corinthians he is using an extended figure of a tabernacle. He is not talking of going to heaven, but the change from our mortal body to an immortal spiritual body at the resurrection.
2 Corinthians 5:2-4 (KJV): 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

No, he is teaching the very reverse. He is looking for the Lord's return and wants simply to be clothed upon immediately while alive with his new house/body that originates with Christ coming from heaven or what he speaks about concerning the living at the Lord's return (1 Cor. 15:51-55). He would prefer not to wait in heaven as a redeemed "naked" spirit without either his physical or new glorified body during the intermediate period between death and the second coming when Christ "BRINGS WITH HIM" the saints (1 Thes. 4:14) or those "spirits of just men" now in heaven (Heb. 12:23).

Absolute proof is his use of the two Aorist tense infinitives showing that there is no time gap but simeltaneous action "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"

Hence "to be absent" from the body IS "to be present" with the Lord.

Finally, he describes the body as a home for something he calls "I" which can be either "present" or "absent" from that home. That in and of itself destroys your whole position.

 

[Moriah]

J



Moriah is wrong! Solomon is not doubting or denying where the spirits of man versus beast go.

No, you are wrong Biblicist. I only repeated what Solomon said...lol..

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Solomon was writing about earthy things. The New Testament tells us about spiritual things.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, you are wrong Biblicist. I only repeated what Solomon said...lol..

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Solomon was writing about earthy things. The New Testament tells us about spiritual things.

The very fact that he distinguishes the "spirit" of both man and beasts from their bodies (vv. 19-20)demonstrates he is not theologically ignorant of these things. He is only expresssing PRACTICAL EXPERIENTIAL ignorance as he is speaking as one who lives "under the sun" who has never EXPERIENCED death of the body or post-death experience. He is not denying it but denying his own EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE of it.

Theologically he knew it went back to God and the spirit of the beast went downward:

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So you are wrong about your interpretation of Ecclesiastes 3:21. However, I do not believe you are capable of admitting error even when it is glaring as Ecclesiastes 12:7 proves it to be. I would love to be proven wrong about you but I don't believe I shall.

 

[Moriah]

The very fact that he distinguishes the "spirit" of both man and beasts from their bodies (vv. 19-20)demonstrates he is not theologically ignorant of these things. He is only expresssing PRACTICAL EXPERIENTIAL ignorance as he is speaking as one who lives "under the sun" who has never EXPERIENCED death of the body or post-death experience. He is not denying it but denying his own EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE of it.

Theologically he knew it went back to God and the spirit of the beast went downward:

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So you are wrong about your interpretation of Ecclesiastes 3:21. However, I do not believe you are capable of admitting error even when it is glaring as Ecclesiastes 12:7 proves it to be. I would love to be proven wrong about you but I don't believe I shall.

I corrected you when you incorrectly quoted what Solomon said. I then quoted Solomon correctly.
You say a bunch of stuff as if you are debating an imaginary person. Stop making up things you say I say.

Solomon says, "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Now speak as if you believe God is watching.

 

[The Biblicist]

I corrected you when you incorrectly quoted what Solomon said. I then quoted Solomon correctly.
You say a bunch of stuff as if you are debating an imaginary person. Stop making up things you say I say.

Solomon says, "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Now speak as if you believe God is watching.

Yes, you proved me right! You are incapable of admitting to error even when it is obvious you are wrong.

Here is what you said also:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. - Moriah


Any fool can see that you are not merely "correcting" but "DENYING" that Solomon theologically knew that the spirit of man went up and the spirit of the beast went down. In denying one aspect you are denying both as both are placed together by Solomon in this question. However, Ecclesiastes 12:7 proves you are wrong.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


He was merely questioning can anyone living "under the sun" know these things by experiential knowledge. Of course they cannot because they are still alive, never died, never experienced what happens after death.


Moriah, you are so proud you cannot admit you are in error when it is glaringly obvious. What good is it to even discuss with such a self-deceived man like you???? Ecclesiastes proves that one half of his statement in Ecclessiastes 3:21 is correct and therefore both are correct as both are placed together in the same question. Ecclessiastical 3:21 places this in a question of EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE whereas Ecclesiastes 12:7 states it as a matter of THEOLOGICAL knowledge.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So proud you are but so wrong you are because Ecclesiastes is not a denial that the spirts of beasts go downward or the spirit of man goes upward but only a denial that anyone living under the sun KNOWS IT EXPERIENTIALLY or can know it EXPERIENTIALLY.

 

[Moriah]

Yes, you proved me right! You are incapable of admitting to error even when it is obvious you are wrong.

That is not true what you say about me. I have even admitted on this board that I had been in false religions before. What a statement you try to make about me. Show me where you have admitted error.

Here is what you said also:
The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah Any fool can see that you are not merely "correcting" but "DENYING" that Solomon theologically knew that the spirit of man went up and the spirit of the beast went down. In denying one aspect you are denying both as both are placed together by Solomon in this question. However, Ecclesiastes 12:7 proves you are wrong.

You are adding to what I said. I did correct you by just stating exactly what Solomon said. You came to the conclusion yourself that it must mean Solomon is denying knowing that the spirit of man went up and the spirit of an animal went in the ground. Why did you naturally come to that conclusion?

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
He was merely questioning can anyone living "under the sun" know these things by experiential knowledge. Of course they cannot because they are still alive, never died, never experienced what happens after death.

How do you think what you say is an explanation to you denying that Solomon says who knows?

Moriah, you are so proud you cannot admit you are in error when it is glaringly obvious. What good is it to even discuss with such a self-deceived man like you????

Careful…your spirit is showing, and it doesn’t look very pretty.

Ecclesiastes proves that one half of his statement in Ecclessiastes 3:21 is correct and therefore both are correct as both are placed together in the same question. Ecclessiastical 3:21 places this in a question of EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE whereas Ecclesiastes 12:7 states it as a matter of THEOLOGICAL knowledge.

You quote a scripture about the PHYSICAL body going to dust, you quote another scripture speaking of the spirit, and you think this proves what you are saying, how?

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You repeat it for why.

So proud you are but so wrong you are because Ecclesiastes is not a denial that the spirts of beasts go downward or the spirit of man goes upward but only a denial that anyone living under the sun KNOWS IT EXPERIENTIALLY or can know it EXPERIENTIALLY.

Show me a post from any thread where you said to someone else that they were right about their belief and you were proven wrong. If you do not show me that post by you, then eat your slanderous and hypocritical words you said to me here.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are adding to what I said.

False again! Go back and read your own post! I quoted that statement word for word from you own post. I ADDED NOTHING! I will quote it again directly from your own post:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah


Solomon simply puts the truth in the form of a question. He does not deny either that the spirit of man goes upward or the spirit of the animal goes downward - HE DOES NOT DENY EITHER.

However, YOU interpreted his question as a denial that the spirit of beast went downward and here are your words again:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah

Solomon never denied this. He simply said "who knows." Ecclessiastes 12:7 demands that SOLOMON KNEW the spirit of man does in fact return to God and the spirit of the beast goes down.

Why then does Solomon put it in a question form in Ecclessiastes 3:21 and an affirmative statement in Ecclesiastes 12:7???

Very simple. In Ecclesiastes 3:21 HE IS NOT DENYING EITHER his only denying that men living under the sun can EXPERIENTIALLY KNOW either because those living "under the sun" have not yet died and therefore have no EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEGE of anything past death much less death itself.

In Ecclessiastes 12:7 he is asserting THEOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE of what He knows to be true.

However, I can tell you will not be able to understand a word I said and you will further admit you are wrong when you asserted in your own words in the very post you responded to my post on Ecclessiastes 3:21

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah

Sorry, but the spirit of beast does go downward regardless if uninspired and unstudied Moriah admits to it or not or denies it as you do above in your own words.

Solomon states two truths in Ecclesiastes 3:21 but simply denies any living man can know these truths EXPERIENTIALLY as no living man has passed beyond to experientially verify it.

 

[Moriah]

False again! Go back and read your own post! I quoted that statement word for word from you own post. I ADDED NOTHING! I will quote it again directly from your own post:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah


Solomon simply puts the truth in the form of a question. He does not deny either that the spirit of man goes upward or the spirit of the animal goes downward - HE DOES NOT DENY EITHER.

However, YOU interpreted his question as a denial that the spirit of beast went downward and here are your words again:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah

Solomon never denied this. He simply said "who knows." Ecclessiastes 12:7 demands that SOLOMON KNEW the spirit of man does in fact return to God and the spirit of the beast goes down.

Why then does Solomon put it in a question form in Ecclessiastes 3:21 and an affirmative statement in Ecclesiastes 12:7???

Very simple. In Ecclesiastes 3:21 HE IS NOT DENYING EITHER his only denying that men living under the sun can EXPERIENTIALLY KNOW either because those living "under the sun" have not yet died and therefore have no EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEGE of anything past death much less death itself.

In Ecclessiastes 12:7 he is asserting THEOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE of what He knows to be true.

However, I can tell you will not be able to understand a word I said and you will further admit you are wrong when you asserted in your own words in the very post you responded to my post on Ecclessiastes 3:21

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah

Sorry, but the spirit of beast does go downward regardless if uninspired and unstudied Moriah admits to it or not or denies it as you do above in your own words.

Solomon states two truths in Ecclesiastes 3:21 but simply denies any living man can know these truths EXPERIENTIALLY as no living man has passed beyond to experientially verify it.

My previous answer stands. Please stop repeating yourself. Solomon does not say what you said he said. He said, "Who knows..."

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Moriah,

I debate the shortest amount of time with a Mormon, because there is one scripture that if they debate against, it shows that there is no reasoning with them.

As for Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, and Christadelphians...I debate with them not much longer than that of the Mormons.

Firstly I am not sure what the Baptists believe on the promises and the prophecies of the restored kingdom upon the earth. The few Baptists I have met did not seem to have definite views on these subjects.

I have briefly examined the views expressed by the various groups you nominate. When discussing with a Mormon, he stated with respect to Isaiah 2:1-4 that Zion will be in Jackson County, Missouri. I believe it will be in Jerusalem, Israel.

The JWs and SDAs do not believe in the conversion of natural Israel. The JWs believe that they will inhabit the earth during the Millenium after Israel and the nations are destroyed. The SDAs believe in a similar destruction of Israel and the nations, and that the earth itself will be scorched, and all the SDAs will be in heaven for the 1000 years. I do not know what the Messianic Jews believe.

I am sympathetic with some of the Christadelphian teachings on this subject of the promises. Also some of their interpretation of prophecy seems to be correct. One good example is the following, which is based in part upon Ezekiel 38:

John Thomas writing in Elpis Israel 1848: There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis, of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as “a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land Ezekiel 38:11-13.”

If after reading the scriptures I gave in this thread about the life of the spirit Jesus gives to those who believe, and one still does not believe, then they are rejecting that life. Then what is the point of discussing?

I agree that we have given sufficient to understand each others view, and I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this thread. I am not interested in repeating some of the things that I have already stated, or even expand a few other areas. Due to some duties, and interests in other things including our Isaiah studies, I need to have a break for a while.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I appreciate your explanation of Luke 1:35 and John 1:14. I was interested if you had an opinion on Luke 1:35, as I thought it would be one verse avoided by those who believe in the incarnation. I also appreciate your concern for my welfare expressed in Post #81, but be reassured I am very conscious of my position on this subject, and satisfied.

I was introduced in part to my present understanding of this subject nearly 49 years ago, and I remember the occasion, a Young People’s Study weekend, because it was the commencement of two of my “first loves”. One of these is this subject, especially as introduced in the OT and the other the start of my courting days of my wife. Both of these first loves have sustained me through many a difficult time.

I have decided not to pursue a discussion on this subject at present. Partly because it is not the subject of the thread, partly I prefer to discuss the positive aspects of my belief on this important and reverential subject. And also as stated to Moriah, due to some duties, and interests in other things including our Isaiah studies, I need to have a break for a while. Down the track if a thread appears with some aspects of this subject I may add a few positive comments.

I appreciate the time and effort that you have put into this thread. I have found some of your responses challenging, and they have forced me to carefully consider many aspects. I also apologise for not responding to the rest of your Post #86. I hope you are not absolutely confident with your last comment: “That in and of itself destroys your whole position”.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

My previous answer stands. Please stop repeating yourself. Solomon does not say what you said he said. He said, "Who knows..."

Now you are outright lying! Before you get mad about calling you a liar, you better go back and read the repeated quotation I gave of what you also said. You DID NOT merely say "who knows" but you DENIED that when Solomon said "who knows...the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? " COULD BE TRUE but is absolutely false! Here is your flat denial again:

"The scripture DOES NOT say the spirit of animals go downward". – Moriah

No, Solomon only said "who knows" he did not say the spirit of the beast DOES NOT go downward but that is what Moriah said!

When Solomon confirmed the first half of Ecclessiastes 3:21 in Ecclessiastes 12:7 as true he thus confirmed the second half as equally true.

Again, he was only pointing out the obvious that no LIVING MAN under the sun experiential can know the truth of these statements as no LIVING MAN under the sun has died and gone beyond death to see. However, theologically he asserts not only that we can know this truth but asserts it as truth in Ecclessiastes 12:7.

The real significant fact here is that the true spirit behind you is being revealed (1 John 4:6) to be the "spirit of error" as the "spirit of error" does admit to error and you are in error.

 

[Moriah]

Now you are outright lying! Before you get mad about calling you a liar, you better go back and read the repeated quotation I gave of what you also said. You DID NOT merely say "who knows" but you DENIED that when Solomon said "who knows...the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? " COULD BE TRUE but is absolutely false! Here is your flat denial again:

"The scripture DOES NOT say the spirit of animals go downward". – Moriah

No, Solomon only said "who knows" he did not say the spirit of the beast DOES NOT go downward but that is what Moriah said!

When Solomon confirmed the first half of Ecclessiastes 3:21 in Ecclessiastes 12:7 as true he thus confirmed the second half as equally true.

Again, he was only pointing out the obvious that no LIVING MAN under the sun experiential can know the truth of these statements as no LIVING MAN under the sun has died and gone beyond death to see. However, theologically he asserts not only that we can know this truth but asserts it as truth in Ecclessiastes 12:7.

The real significant fact here is that the true spirit behind you is being revealed (1 John 4:6) to be the "spirit of error" as the "spirit of error" does admit to error and you are in error.

Biblicist,

You are guilty of what you accuse me.

Here is exactly what you said and I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Technically only the "body" is said to return to dust! The spirit of beasts go downward to dust but man's spirit does not. David speaks of flying away when he is "cut off" from the land of the living. Paul says that he will be present with the Lord when he leaves the body.

Moriah:
The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. The scriptures says Who knows...
Solomon in Ecclesiastes is speaking through out Ecclesiastes about earthly things. The New Testament speaks to us about spiritual things.

Remember, many of the Jews missed the Messiah because they were expecting a King for an earthly reign. The New Testament has the revelation about what is spiritual.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist,

You are guilty of what you accuse me.

Here is exactly what you said and I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Technically only the "body" is said to return to dust! The spirit of beasts go downward to dust but man's spirit does not. David speaks of flying away when he is "cut off" from the land of the living. Paul says that he will be present with the Lord when he leaves the body.

Moriah:
The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. The scriptures says Who knows...
Solomon in Ecclesiastes is speaking through out Ecclesiastes about earthly things. The New Testament speaks to us about spiritual things.

Ok, I understand where you are coming from. I misunderstood your first phrase to be your own denial. So, you do not deny the spirit of beast goes downward - right?

Ecclesiates 12:7 proves that Solomon believed the Spirit of man did go upward or back to God. Hence, Ecclessiates 3:21 is simply asking it from the perspective of personal experiential knowledge and nothing more. No living man knows where the spirits go by personal experience is all that Ecclesiates 3:21 is saying but Solomon knew by revelation where they went as Ecclesiates 12:7 is not a question but an assertion.

 

[Moriah]

Ok, I understand where you are coming from. I misunderstood your first phrase to be your own denial. So, you do not deny the spirit of beast goes downward - right?

In this thread, I do not say either way where animals go. I only wanted to point out that you are saying Solomon says definitely, where animals go, but that is not the case. The point is that Solomon is saying, “Who knows…” What we can take away for sure in what Solomon is saying, and that is that humans AND animals have spirits. Many people claim that animals do not have spirits. I just noticed you put into the scripture something that I do not believe is there. I only repeated what Solomon does say.
If you want to make a thread about what happens to animals when they die, then make a post about that. As for you saying that no animal is in heaven, but is only downward, then you must acknowledge that the Bible does speak of animals that are in heaven.
Revelation 6:1 watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.
5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Ecclesiates 12:7 proves that Solomon believed the Spirit of man did go upward or back to God. Hence, Ecclessiates 3:21 is simply asking it from the perspective of personal experiential knowledge and nothing more. No living man knows where the spirits go by personal experience is all that Ecclesiates 3:21 is saying but Solomon knew by revelation where they went as Ecclesiates 12:7 is not a question but an assertion.

I do not believe that Solomon was asserting that the spirit of animals go downward. I believe Solomon was saying what he said, and that is, “Who knows…”

 

[The Biblicist]

In this thread, I do not say either way where animals go. I only wanted to point out that you are saying Solomon says definitely, where animals go, but that is not the case. The point is that Solomon is saying, “Who knows…” What we can take away for sure in what Solomon is saying, and that is that humans AND animals have spirits. Many people claim that animals do not have spirits. I just noticed you put into the scripture something that I do not believe is there. I only repeated what Solomon does say.
If you want to make a thread about what happens to animals when they die, then make a post about that. As for you saying that no animal is in heaven, but is only downward, then you must acknowledge that the Bible does speak of animals that are in heaven.
Revelation 6:1 watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.
5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

You cannot go to revelation to support doctrine. These are SYMBOLS not literal and the 24 elders and four beasts are not symbols of animals but of the redeemed - Rev. 5:8-10.

The Horses are symbols of God's judgmental powers creating havoc throughout the earth. No literal horse can do that.

It is useless to discuss this or any other issue with you.