Per your theology, we are now sexless, so no more woman/man!
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"The Prophecy of Israel"
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1689Dave
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Do you understand Paul? Or reject what he is saying because you do not understand?
I reject your understanding of what paul was saying!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I did not offer an interpretation. I only quoted Paul. Your argument is with him, not me.
No, you are confusing things. The promise made to Abraham included that as long as the sun, moon, and stars were the same, the land would belong to the Jews. God said that they would be removed for sins, but that they would be restored for His Holy Name's sake and that then He would forgive their iniquity. Jews do not have to become Christians to live in Israel but eventually they will. For the moment, they just got back. As the world comes to an end, all other things will be accomplished.
Please give Scripture references for these assertions.
All of this is in the early posts--what do you want to challenge?
That is not what you said earlier.
You state that Jews become Gentiles when saved, that God no longer deals at all with Israel, is that not misunderstanding?
What did I say earlier?
It doesn't say that, or even imply it.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You have it backwards. Gentiles become Israel when saved. Those who reject Christ whether Jews or gentiles remain under God's wrath as gentiles.
What is the contradiction?
There is no mention of Abram/Abraham in the early posts - none in the first 20. Where in Scripture can we read this?
Oh, my mistake. It was an everlasting covenant. Then it was elaborated:
Genesis 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Jeremiah 31:34-36 (KJV) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
V. 8 is needed to strengthen your argument regarding the land -
Some covenants are unconditional - God speaks of "my covenant" - & some are conditional on obedience of the subject. God explains the obedience of circumcision & covenant breaking by neglect of circumcision.
The immediate question is "does the ritual establish the covenant relationship, or is the ritual a sign of the relationship?" Paul explains that the faith relationship was established before the ritual. See Romans 4.
Likewise baptism does not make us Christians, but it is a sign of our faith & obedience to Christ. There are plenty of baptised unbelievers.
The old Covenant failed due to disobedience. A new Covenant was needed. See Hebrews 8 which quotes Jeremiah 31.
God introduces the OC to Israel in Exodus 19 (notice the IF), gives the Commandments in Exo. 20, and a blood sacrifice in Exo. 24 (the blood of the Covenant.)
Israel repeatedly broke the Old Covenant, immediately, & a generation perished in the wilderness on the way to the promised land, & throughout the Judges & Kings period. 500 years later, Israel's failure was so complete that the northern tribes were dispersed without recall & 2 generations of the southern tribes were exiled in Babylon.
The Old Covenant failed, utterly.
During the exile, God gave through Jeremiah the promise of a New Covenant (Jer. 31), but how could that be secured? Read on ....
Jer. 33:14 ‘“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will fulfil the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.
15 ‘“In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Saviour.”
The New Covenant needs a righteous branch from David's line. Who but Jesus, the LORD Jesus Christ the LORD our righteousness.. 15 ‘“In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Saviour.”
Does this mean the promises to Abraham & his descendants failed? What does Hebrews say?
11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
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13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
.....
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Abraham & his faithful descendants are presently enjoying their heavenly country, and looking forward to the perfect fulfilment of all God's Covenant promises in the NH&NE.
The present State of Israel is irrelevant to God's Covenant purposes. The Gospel is open to them, as to all repentant sinners, a promise of an everlasting Covenant relationship in Jesus' blood of the New Covenant, and the eternal promised land - the NH&NE.
From my point of view, you are saying that Christianity replaced Judaism and when that happened the promises to the Jews were voided. But Scripture is clear that in the case of the land, it belonged to the Jews until the end of the world no matter what.
Right, paul NEVER mentions jews ceasing to be Jews and becoming gentiles, just that they would be now saved jews!
They are totally confusing what Paui; meant by no more distinct in Christ, as jews stay Jews, Gentiles Gentiles, and men and women sat as is! He meant that all of us now share equally in all spiritual blessings!
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