The "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" used by KJVOs is false.

[JD731]

I am KJV only but I know the context of Psalm 12. I know that the statement in verse 7 concerning the purity of the Word of God is a universal truth no matter in what context it appears. It is true in Psa 12. It appears in other chapters and books of the Bible and it is true in each of them as well.

What does the word "pure" mean in the context of Psalm 12? How does the saying relate to the other statements and is this statement related to all the statements in the Psalm, or to a particular statement in the Psalm?

How are the words of the LORD tried? We know from the text that they are tried "as" silver is tried, in the furnace of the earth, purified seven times.

The only interest that some people have in this Psalm is either to prove the KJV is the pure words of God or to prove the KJV is not the pure words of God. That is as far as their interest goes. It would be interesting if everyone who has commented as a point of arguing an opinion would submit what they view the Psalm to actually teach and to answer why it appears in scripture as the 12 psalm of David, the King.

I submit the statement in verse 7 relates to the one verse where The LORD speaks and says what his intention is, verse 6. All the other verses are the words of the psalmist. It is a prayer and a prophecy. It is like any other prophecy from the LORD's prophets. If it does not come to pass it is because the prophet is a false prophet.

The words of the LORD then must be specific if those who put their trust in them are tried by them when their life is on the line. They will be wanting to know exactly what God said if someone is at the door to destroy them and all they have for deliverance are the promises he made in words spoken 3000 years ago, if they are fulfilled today. Therefore, if it is these words written by David that will preserve a far into the future generation, then the words must be preserved. It is just logical to believe that.

While the Psalm does not address where God will preserve his words, or even how he will preserve them, he will preserve them and these words will also try his people to whom these promises are made, which is the poor and afflicted of Israel, the remnant, who are in danger of being utterly destroyed from off the earth by the man that puffeth at them and who are delivered by Jesus Christ who arises from the Father's throne, where he has been seated since his resurrection, to rescue this small remnant.

So there seems to be a double application of the trying of the words of God. 1), God will try the people who are ready to perish by allowing the persecution and 2) the people will try the LORD by standing in the face of the persecution because of his promises.

While there are many passages in the Psalms and prophets that continues this theme of end time events, I will give one that is in the exact same context and has not seen it's fulfillment yet.

Zech 13:8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Both Psalm 12 and these verses in Zech 13 are in the same context of a future fiery judgement of Israel as is told by John the Baptist, who Jesus said was the last prophet of Israel before he came.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Holy Ghost baptism happened in Acts 2 but the fire baptism has not happened at this present time.
The "day of the LORD" judgements records these as future and they culminate in the events of the Revelation, where seven judgements are recorded, just like Psalm 12 says and these seven judgements will leave few of Israel in number, but they will be purified as a people, all of them who are left trusting in God through Jesus Christ.

The word of the LORD is absolutely pure and can purify those who put their trust in it.

 

[37818]

I know that the statement in verse 7 concerning the purity of the Word of God . . . .

Psalms 12:7 has nothing to do with the word in Psalms 12:6. Check your KJV 1611 footnote for "them" in Psalms 12:7. The Hebrew "him."

 

[robycop3]

I am KJV only but I know the context of Psalm 12. I know that the statement in verse 7 concerning the purity of the Word of God is a universal truth no matter in what context it appears. It is true in Psa 12. It appears in other chapters and books of the Bible and it is true in each of them as well.

What does the word "pure" mean in the context of Psalm 12? How does the saying relate to the other statements and is this statement related to all the statements in the Psalm, or to a particular statement in the Psalm?

How are the words of the LORD tried? We know from the text that they are tried "as" silver is tried, in the furnace of the earth, purified seven times.

The only interest that some people have in this Psalm is either to prove the KJV is the pure words of God or to prove the KJV is not the pure words of God. That is as far as their interest goes. It would be interesting if everyone who has commented as a point of arguing an opinion would submit what they view the Psalm to actually teach and to answer why it appears in scripture as the 12 psalm of David, the King.

I submit the statement in verse 7 relates to the one verse where The LORD speaks and says what his intention is, verse 6. All the other verses are the words of the psalmist. It is a prayer and a prophecy. It is like any other prophecy from the LORD's prophets. If it does not come to pass it is because the prophet is a false prophet.

The words of the LORD then must be specific if those who put their trust in them are tried by them when their life is on the line. They will be wanting to know exactly what God said if someone is at the door to destroy them and all they have for deliverance are the promises he made in words spoken 3000 years ago, if they are fulfilled today. Therefore, if it is these words written by David that will preserve a far into the future generation, then the words must be preserved. It is just logical to believe that.

While the Psalm does not address where God will preserve his words, or even how he will preserve them, he will preserve them and these words will also try his people to whom these promises are made, which is the poor and afflicted of Israel, the remnant, who are in danger of being utterly destroyed from off the earth by the man that puffeth at them and who are delivered by Jesus Christ who arises from the Father's throne, where he has been seated since his resurrection, to rescue this small remnant.

So there seems to be a double application of the trying of the words of God. 1), God will try the people who are ready to perish by allowing the persecution and 2) the people will try the LORD by standing in the face of the persecution because of his promises.

While there are many passages in the Psalms and prophets that continues this theme of end time events, I will give one that is in the exact same context and has not seen it's fulfillment yet.

Zech 13:8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Both Psalm 12 and these verses in Zech 13 are in the same context of a future fiery judgement of Israel as is told by John the Baptist, who Jesus said was the last prophet of Israel before he came.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Holy Ghost baptism happened in Acts 2 but the fire baptism has not happened at this present time.
The "day of the LORD" judgements records these as future and they culminate in the events of the Revelation, where seven judgements are recorded, just like Psalm 12 says and these seven judgements will leave few of Israel in number, but they will be purified as a people, all of them who are left trusting in God through Jesus Christ.

The word of the LORD is absolutely pure and can purify those who put their trust in it.

KJVOs, having no ACTUAL evidence to support the KJVO myth, make up stuff like the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" to attempt to lend some credence to their myth. Thus, they distorted the ACTUAL message of V. 6-7. For example, Ps. 12:7 is about PEOPLE, not God's words. Please check my OP for the explanation.

All Christians, of course, believe God preserved His word, & we have every word of His that He wanted us to have. (Remember, Jesus spoke many millions of words in His earthly time, but only a small percentage of them are preserved. But every one He WANTED preserved IS preserved.)

The Psalm is a SONG. We don't know what melody Dave wrote it for, but in most of his Psalms, he intersperses praises for God in between the verses about the incident(s) he's writing about. He did that in Ps. 12.

Yes, every word of God's is pure the instant it's spoken. His words needed no refining of any sort. And the KJVO myth remains phony as a Ford Corvette.

 

[Reynolds]

When KJVOs are faced with the fact of no Scriptural support for the KJVO myth, they often try to counter with "Psalm 12:6-7 is proof text for KJVO." However, they ignore several facts about that supposition:

1.) The AV makers included the following footnote for the 2nd them in V7- "Heb. him, I. euery one of them." That shows they knew V7 is about PEOPLE, not God's words. The AV makers subbed 'them' for 'him', as they knew the verse is about people & not just one person.

2.) For the sake of discussion, let's say those verses ARE both about God's words. WHERE DO THEY MENTION THE KJV, by the slightest quark of the least implication?

Thus, the KJVO myth remains without any Scriptural support. Therefore, it CANNOT be true.

Where you finding KJV only folks to be upset with? 99,% of the ones still left around here are old as dirt. There are a few young ones, but they so looney tunes they not worth me wasting my time on. Where you running into all these folks that keep you so worked up?

 

[JD731]

Where you finding KJV only folks to be upset with? 99,% of the ones still left around here are old as dirt. There are a few young ones, but they so looney tunes they not worth me wasting my time on. Where you running into all these folks that keep you so worked up?

He must be allowed to ask his questions. Those who believe the KJV are the preserved words of God , like me, are not exempt from applying the scriptures in context. I certainly am not intimidated by people like the person who started this op. His last post demonstrated a very good reason or two not to go to him to learn about the psalm. He thinks it is just a nice tune, it seems, and has no prophetic value. At least that is what I got from his response.

Some people are 3 feet wide and 1/2 inch deep. He does not know that David is a prophet and the things that he says are prophesies, whether they are in the format of a song or a loud grunt. I know that David is a prophet because my KJV says he is. Remember, he does not access the KJV so he might not know that. "Prophet" could possibly be one of the 55,000 words his favorite translation left off.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Some people are more inspired than David but if I were you I would check to see what Acts 2 says in my favorite bible and then ask yourself if it matters.

 

[Reynolds]

He must be allowed to ask his questions. Those who believe the KJV are the preserved words of God , like me, are not exempt from applying the scriptures in context. I certainly am not intimidated by people like the person who started this op. His last post demonstrated a very good reason or two not to go to him to learn about the psalm. He thinks it is just a nice tune, it seems, and has no prophetic value. At least that is what I got from his response.

Some people are 3 feet wide and 1/2 inch deep. He does not know that David is a prophet and the things that he says are prophesies, whether they are in the format of a song or a loud grunt. I know that David is a prophet because my KJV says he is. Remember, he does not access the KJV so he might not know that. "Prophet" could possibly be one of the 55,000 words his favorite translation left off.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Some people are more inspired than David but if I were you I would check to see what Acts 2 says in my favorite bible and then ask yourself if it matters.

The fact David wrote prophetically is most obvious.
Which KJV you use?
Got to be a 1611. If not, you not using real King James. The only KJV only I ever got in an argument with was a fellow deacon at our church. I heard so much about his 1611 that I brought a real 1611. He couldn't read it and proceeded to tell me it was not a 1611, his Bible was a 1611. Everyone else there knew who was right.We all laughed.

 

[JD731]

The fact David wrote prophetically is most obvious.

A prophecy must have a demonstrable fulfillment. It is the way a prophet is confirmed as a prophet of God, the scriptures say.

What do you think is the prophecy of Psalm 12 that can be demonstrated to be true?

 

[Reynolds]

A prophecy must have a demonstrable fulfillment. It is the way a prophet is confirmed as a prophet of God, the scriptures say.

What do you think is the prophecy of Psalm 12 that can be demonstrated to be true?

Mark 12:35-37 proves he was a prophet.

 

[robycop3]

Where you finding KJV only folks to be upset with? 99,% of the ones still left around here are old as dirt. There are a few young ones, but they so looney tunes they not worth me wasting my time on. Where you running into all these folks that keep you so worked up?

There are many lurkers out there who don't post or even join the site. They need to see the truth about the KJVO myth & other false doctrines such as preterism.

 

[robycop3]

Mark 12:35-37 proves he was a prophet.

Right. But not everything he wrote was prophecy.

 

[37818]

There are two major groups against the KJV. The KJ-Onlists who think it's the only word of God. And those who favor the CT modern translations over the KJV.

 

[robycop3]

He must be allowed to ask his questions. Those who believe the KJV are the preserved words of God , like me, are not exempt from applying the scriptures in context. I certainly am not intimidated by people like the person who started this op. His last post demonstrated a very good reason or two not to go to him to learn about the psalm. He thinks it is just a nice tune, it seems, and has no prophetic value. At least that is what I got from his response.

Some people are 3 feet wide and 1/2 inch deep. He does not know that David is a prophet and the things that he says are prophesies, whether they are in the format of a song or a loud grunt. I know that David is a prophet because my KJV says he is. Remember, he does not access the KJV so he might not know that. "Prophet" could possibly be one of the 55,000 words his favorite translation left off.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Some people are more inspired than David but if I were you I would check to see what Acts 2 says in my favorite bible and then ask yourself if it matters.

I, too, believe the KJV is the preserved word of God, except for its goofs & booboos. But I certainly DON'T believe it's the ONLY valid English Bible translation that preserves God's word. it's been left behind by several newer ones that don't have most of the KJV's goofs.(One is in the "Acts" verses you cited JESUS WAS NEVER IN HELL, but in hades. Hell is the lake of fire.)

Of course I know Dave was a prophet, as Jesus said as much. But not everything he wrote was prophecy.

And why were many words left outta newer versions? Because either they didn't belong in a Bible version to start with (such as "and shalt be" in Rev. 16:5) or were superfluous due to the now-outdated English of the KJV.

And don't forget that the AV makers knew Psalm 12:7 was about PEOPLE.

(Why do YOU believe a false, man-made doctrine with absolutely NO Scriptural support?)

 

[Reynolds]

There are many lurkers out there who don't post or even join the site. They need to see the truth about the KJVO myth & other false doctrines such as preterism.

I take you word for it. I personally think they are near extinct.

 

[Reynolds]

Right. But not everything he wrote was prophecy.

Just as with Isaiah, Daniel, John, etc.

 

[rlvaughn]

(Why do YOU believe a false, man-made doctrine with absolutely NO Scriptural support?)

Which sounds quite pious of you until people start noticing your own man-made doctrines with no scriptural support, such as God creating people other than Adam & Eve, or Britain and the U.S. being the lost descendants of Joseph.

 

[JD731]

I take you word for it. I personally think they are near extinct.

)

Reynolds, there is a good chance that you have never read the NT concerning the testimony of God, with any discernment, if one can take your words seriously. The reason for the end of the age is because sinners will no longer believe and be saved. I am not going to prove that to you now because that is not the subject but Jesus Christ had the following thing to say.

Luke 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

You are right. Fewer and fewer people are opting for believing the message of the Bible written in their own words and rejecting the testimony of God in his own words. You don’t even realize that you are part of the end times apostasy.

I wish I could help you but I don’t think I can.

 

[JD731]

Which sounds quite pious of you until people start noticing your own man-made doctrines with no scriptural support, such as God creating people other than Adam & Eve, or Britain and the U.S. being the lost descendants of Joseph.

Rivaughn, I don’t desire to misrepresent Mr robycop3 but I can’t remember him ever agreeing that he must have a scriptural teaching for what he believes about the scriptures and teaches to others who will listen. The MV’s vary in words in their translations of the original language manuscripts by up to about 65,000 words, according to the research I have done.

So, in demonstrating hatred for those who believe in an every word bible, the proponents of the MV’s actually reveals a lot about what they think about what they teach us are the real inspired words of God. They are angry and upset with bible believers because they will not agree that it is okay to edit God and give us a better version than he gave us.

It just seems over the top arrogant to me. Keep your KJV if you like as long as you agree that it is the message of God that is important and not the words that express it.

That is what I am getting from this translation philosophy. What are you getting?

 

[Reynolds]

)

Reynolds, there is a good chance that you have never read the NT concerning the testimony of God, with any discernment, if one can take your words seriously. The reason for the end of the age is because sinners will no longer believe and be saved. I am not going to prove that to you now because that is not the subject but Jesus Christ had the following thing to say.

Luke 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

You are right. Fewer and fewer people are opting for believing the message of the Bible written in their own words and rejecting the testimony of God in his own words. You don’t even realize that you are part of the end times apostasy.

I wish I could help you but I don’t think I can.

I believe you fall into that second group of KJV only I mentioned. Good day to you sir.

 

[JD731]

I believe you fall into that second group of KJV only I mentioned. Good day to you sir.

Perhaps.

Here is what is true about Psalm 12. It is a prophecy and not one word of it has been fulfilled yet in a practical and final sense. It is a prayer of Israel through David for deliverance. It is not a statement on bible translations. That does not mean however that it is not true that the words of the LORD are pure words. KJV believers agree with God that his words are pure words. People like you believe the message of God is pure at best. That is a different approach to the scriptures. It is fundamentally different.

There can be no other reason for translation boards to continually translate what they say they believe to be the inspired words of God into the same language scores of times using different words. The language is not changing that quickly so that cannot be the reason for doing it. Then, the committees approach the production of their bibles with different translation philosophies. They optimize, or use a dynamic equivalence, or paraphrase. At least a very few use formal equivalence.

Now, here is some JD731 logic. If we have all these various translations into the English with all these various translation philosophies plus paraphrases thrown in and all of them taken from what has been agreed upon as the inspired manuscripts, then it is true that people who subscribe to these philosophies do not believe in inspired words but an inspired message. Then to have us assured by the proponents of these works that nothing is lost or compromised in any of them and we would have no less knowledge of God and his doctrines by studying one or all of them because they all are equally the word of God proves my logic that it is not the words of God that are pure and are settled in heaven but the message of God. What else could be true? These translations vary in the number of words as much as 65,000 words, according to my research. So, one can get the same message as God gave originally and it does not really matter what words one reads.

This is an example of this working out in real time. I talked to a Calvinist about 1 John 2:2, which says, "And he (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

When I pointed that out to my Calvinist friend that this passage says the whole world was propitiated by his sacrifice, he said sure, that is what the words say but that is not the message. The message is that he did not propitiate God for the sins of the whole world but only for a few. So, the message took precedence over the words.

"In due time Christ died for the ungodly." Well, that is what the words say but that is not the message. One gets the message, I was told, by considering the whole bible and not the individual words.

This is the difference between KJV bible believers and proponents of MV's. We believe the words are inspired of God and we do not have the mandate to present them in any format and abbreviation that we desire. The practice of MV believers reveals what they believe about inspired words and how they think of passages like Psalm 12 where it is said by the Psalmist that "the words of the LORD are pure words."

Why am I wrong?

 

[37818]

Why am I wrong?

If you believe Psalms 12:7 speaks of the word of God in verse 6. You are wrong per 1611 KJV verse 7 note.