The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

[Pete Richert]

2 Peter 3:8: But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.

This is talking about how God views time, not literally how the The Day of the Lord is. Peter concern here is not how long the millenium is but why so much time has past before Christ has returned (at that point, which was like 30 years). If indeed, this verse were defining the DOL, then you need to at least take it for what it says and say it is 1000 years.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by john6:63:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tim too:
why not take a look at all the references to "the Day of the Lord" and see what that does to the pretrib view.

Since obviously the tribulation has yet to begin, Paul certainly wasn’t a “date setter” in regard to prophecy, and Jesus forbade setting dates when He said of that day and hour no one knows (Matthew 24:36).

So what does the day of the Lord. (1 Thes. 5:2) do to the pretrib view? Nothing. It proves that neither you nor I will know the time. </font>[/QUOTE]You missed the point. The rapture is mentioned once possibly if you deduce it through a bunch of translations. The phrase Paul uses to describe our being gathered to Christ is “the day of the Lord.” (1 Cor 5:4, 2 Cor 1:14, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Thes 2:2-3) This day is tied in scripture to the signs that appear in the heavens before we are gathered to Christ. (Isai 13:6-10, Joel 2:31, Zeph 1:14-15, Acts 2:20, 2 Peter 3:10)

I wasn't suggesting that you take this one reference to "the day of the Lord" and filter it through you pretrib theology to answer. I was suggesting you look at all the references to "the day of the Lord" and see if that causes you to question your pretrib theology. It is worth the time and study if you are serious about knowing the truth about end times.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

"Day of the Lord" is mentioned 5 times in the
new Testament:

Ac 2:20 (KJV1769):
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
and the moon into blood, before that great and notable
day of the Lord come:

Here it is said that the day of the Lord told by
the prophet Amos has begun (that was back in 33AD)

1Co 5:5 (KJV1769):
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction
of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in
the day of the Lord Jesus.

This day of the Lord is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

2Co 1:14 (KJV1769):
As also ye have acknowledged us in part,
that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also
are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This day of the Lord is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

1Th 5:2 (KJV1769):
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord
so cometh as a thief in the night.

This day of the Lord is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
For the Second Coming event after the tribulation period
comes at a known time (3½-years after the AOD).

2Pe 3:10 (KJV1769):
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This day of the Lord could well be
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection as well,
but also could include all the 7-years of the Tribulation
(Wrath) Period, for what is 7-years relative to
the 1,000 year Literal/Physical reign of our Blessed
Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus?
Well, it is 7/10 of 1%, that is 0.7%, i.e. very little.

I note from 2 Peter 3 that the purpose of exchatology is
to provoke the Christian into good works.

In the Old Testament, the phrase: day of the Lord
is found in 24 verses. Most these references seem
to be predicitons of the coming Tribulation Period.

So, THE DAY OF THE LORD proves the Holy Scripture to
contain the pretribulation rapture theory.
One of these days Jesus is going to come to get
us and take us to heaven, we who belong to Him.
That one generation of mostly gentiles will not have
to die. I pray that we who are not worthy might
be the ones upon whom it might fall. Amen.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Baptist Believer: "If this is your view,
you need to rethink it."

Sorry brother, I got it straight
out of the Bible. What God
hath writ, there is no need to
"rethink".

Admitidly, i do see the pretribulation
rapture in the main references, if you
miss it there you will probably miss
it in the minor passages as well.


Here are the major and minor references
to the pretribualtion rapture/resurrection
and the posttribulation Second Advent
of Jesus:


\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is not mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44
Mark 13
Luke 21
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4-5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-131
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I don't think the Holy Spirit
who has taught me this over the last 51 years
of teaching is going to let me
"reconsider". And yes, it is too harsh to
try to steal the HOPE that is within me.

And I don't think that the Holy Spirit, who has taught me that the pre-trib rapture is false, is going to let me "reconsider" either. So whose "Holy Spirit" is right then, since God cannot contradict Himself? </font>[/QUOTE]I asked the Holy Spirit
that question myself several times.
The question is invalid.
(Which is good, cause i don't know
the answer either).
It is the duty of Christians to stay
ready for the Coming Again of Jesus,
to do good works especially sharing
the Good News to others. Part of the
Good News is that we don't have to go
through the Tribulation Time (because
of the Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection).

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
1Th 5:2 (KJV1769):
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This day of the Lord is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection. For the Second Coming event after the tribulation period comes at a known time (3½-years after the AOD).

What you're missing is that Jesus says in Matthew 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

In other words, you're right that if this is the 70th week of Daniel, then there will be roughly 3 1/2 years left of the 70th week after the man of sin is revealed. If it weren't for one little detail you left out, one could predict exactly when the Lord would return.

But here Jesus says that great tribulation will be shortened. Shortened by how much? Nobody knows. That's why we cannot know the day or hour of the Lord's return. The great tribulation ENDS when the Day of the Lord begins. And the Day of the Lord begins with the celestial signs of the coming of the Lord (sun goes dark, moon turns to blood, etc.)

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
This day of the Lord could well be the pretribulation rapture/resurrection as well,
but also could include all the 7-years of the Tribulation

No, it could not, by the words of Jesus:

Matthew 24: 5 "Therefore when you see the "abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand) [...] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

There you have a clear statement that the abomination of desolation comes first, after which the great tribulation begins. Next, Jesus says...

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

The days of the great tribulation will be shortened. Next in the order of events, according to Jesus...

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

There you have it as clear as possible. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the signs of the Day of the Lord begin. Therefore it is impossible for the Day of the Lord to encompass the whole 70th week, or even the latter half of the 70th week. The Day of the Lord doesn't even begin until AFTER the great tribulation ends. It is what brings the great tribulation to an end, and begins God's wrath.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is also when we are gathered to Him in rapture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by john6:63:
If there’s no pre-tribulation rapture, then please explain the following verse:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

Ignore it & hope it isn't
there next time you look

 

[LadyEagle]

...and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Operative word: heaven, not earth. The elect are already in heaven.

This passage is speaking of Christ's Second Coming to Earth, not the Rapture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tim too: "If you had some concrete scriptures
that mention both events together, then it
would be worth reexamining."

Critizing the Holy Scripture is probably a sin.
As a created being you have no authority to critique
the creator. He contents of Holy Scripture is
determined by God's design, you and i have
NO INPUT, neither before the writing nor after
the writing.

Here are the verses that report both the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection event
and the postribulation Second Advent event:

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1) "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2) "our gathering together to him"

1) that is the Second Coming of Jesus
to defeat the Antichrist and set up the
literal/physical Millennial Kingdom
2) the pretribulation rapture/resurrection

Hello! Jesus is coming to get us and take us
to heaven.
Are you looking forward to that day?
Does "all the tribes of the earth shall morn"
(from Matthew 24:30) sound like what you
should expect to feel when Jesus comes to get
you?

Titus 2:13 mentions the two seperate events
1) the raputure/resurrection -- THE BLESSED HOPE
2) the glorious appearing of the great God and our
Savior Jesus Christ -- the second advent of Jesus
when he comes to wup AC-butt

But some will fight the clear and simple teaching
of the Holy Bible.

BTW there will be a postribulation rapture, probably
will rapture a couple of dozen folk, one who got
left behind at the rapture in a diamond mine
in S. Africa and gets stuck there with a 10-year
supply of food & water and NO WAY TO GET to the top.
An astronaught beyond the atmosphere with no
way to get home, a 7-year supply of food, and
nothing to do but read the Holy Bible.

By constrast, if the rapture were to be today
and only 20% of the TWO BILLION pseuo_christians
are REAL Christians, that will be 400 Million.
My God would lot rather pull off a rapture of
400 Million than a couple of dozen.
That aught to get somebodys attention

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Part of the
Good News is that we don't have to go
through the Tribulation Time (because
of the Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection).

That's funny, because for about the first 1800 years of Church history there was no notion of a pre-trib rapture. How then can one say that not having to go through the tribulation is part of the Good News? Did everyone else up to the 1800s preach a defective gospel?

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Here are the verses that report both the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection event
and the postribulation Second Advent event:

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1) "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2) "our gathering together to him"

1) that is the Second Coming of Jesus
to defeat the Antichrist and set up the
literal/physical Millennial Kingdom
2) the pretribulation rapture/resurrection

Hello! Jesus is coming to get us and take us
to heaven.
Are you looking forward to that day?
Does "all the tribes of the earth shall morn"
(from Matthew 24:30) sound like what you
should expect to feel when Jesus comes to get
you?

Titus 2:13 mentions the two seperate events
1) the raputure/resurrection -- THE BLESSED HOPE
2) the glorious appearing of the great God and our
Savior Jesus Christ -- the second advent of Jesus
when he comes to wup AC-butt

But some will fight the clear and simple teaching
of the Holy Bible.

A big problem with your pretrib theology is that it ignores the plain truth of scripture and strains out a gnat to swallow a camel. You are going to swear that the conjunction "and" in these passages constitutes two separate events. It does not!

Look again at how simply these verses do away with the pretrib rapture. Paul describes the coming and our being gathered to Him as the day of the Lord. Paul goes on to say that the day of the Lord will not even come until the person who you agreed is the antichrist is revealed. Pretribbers say the church will not be here when the antichrist is revealed do they not? Therefore the pretribulation rapture is wrong.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 NIV

In these verses I find it hard to twist a rapture out this "and" since what it separates is describing the same thing.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good work. Titus 2:13-14 NKJV

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Tim too: "If you had some concrete scriptures
that mention both events together, then it
would be worth reexamining."

Critizing the Holy Scripture is probably a sin.
As a created being you have no authority to critique
the creator. He contents of Holy Scripture is
determined by God's design, you and i have
NO INPUT, neither before the writing nor after
the writing.

I think you can plainly see from my comment that you quoted that I am not critizing the Scriptures just the lack of scriptural evidence for a pretrib rapture.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by SheEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Operative word: heaven, not earth. The elect are already in heaven.

This passage is speaking of Christ's Second Coming to Earth, not the Rapture.

</font>[/QUOTE]Why would Christ need to gather the elect if they had been raptured and were with Him?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Critizing the Holy Scripture is probably a sin.
As a created being you have no authority to critique
the creator. He contents of Holy Scripture is
determined by God's design, you and i have
NO INPUT, neither before the writing nor after
the writing.

But there is nothing sinful about criticizing a faulty interpretation of Scripture.

Here are the verses that report both the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection event
and the postribulation Second Advent event:

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1) "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2) "our gathering together to him"

But you are assuming a priori that these are two separate events. Such an interpretation was unheard of until the 1800s. There's nothing in the context of this verse to suggest these are distinct events, let alone that they are separated by 7 years.

Titus 2:13 mentions the two seperate events
1) the raputure/resurrection -- THE BLESSED HOPE
2) the glorious appearing of the great God and our
Savior Jesus Christ -- the second advent of Jesus
when he comes to wup AC-butt

You've been reading too much Tim LaHaye. Again this is only a reference to two separate events if one forces his pre-trib belief on the text.

But some will fight the clear and simple teaching
of the Holy Bible.

Yep.

 

[LadyEagle]

Why would Christ need to gather the elect if they had been raptured and were with Him?

Because we are coming back to rule & reign with Him for 1000 years. We shall be a mighty army.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by SheEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Operative word: heaven, not earth. The elect are already in heaven.

This passage is speaking of Christ's Second Coming to Earth, not the Rapture.

</font>[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by SheEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why would Christ need to gather the elect if they had been raptured and were with Him?

Because we are coming back to rule & reign with Him for 1000 years. We shall be a mighty army.

</font>[/QUOTE]You are missing my point. Why would Jesus send His angels to gather His elect after the rapture?
Won't we be in the presence of the Lord always after the rapture? If yes, then there will be no need to gather us because we are with Him. This is obviously talking about the Second Coming and not the rapture.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

I see nobody wants to talk about this

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: "That's funny, because for about
the first 1800 years of Church history there was
no notion of a pre-trib rapture."

Tell the whole story: from 300AD to 1800AD
nobody taught premillinnialism. During the
dark ages the Roman Catholic cover story
"a-millinnialism was taught. This says
the millinnial kingdom is a "spiritual"
event. I believe the Millinnial Kingdom
of My Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus will
be literal and physical.

The early church reformers (Calvin, Luther, Etc.)
didn't deal with minor doctrines but with
the major ones: the nature of Christ,
the nature of God, the nature of Salvation, etc.
The revival of premillinnialism left it wide open
for somebody to discover the pretribulation
rapture taught in the Holy Bible.
The pre-tribulation rapture theory was
postulated about 1830, the postribulation
only rapture theory about 1937,
the prewrath rapture theory about 1959.

The premillinnial rapture theory was
not specified during 33-300 AD
nor in the reformation period from the
late 1500s to 1830.
Prior to then, the pretribulation theory
was not specified seperate from other
rapture timing theories. To say:
" ... for about
the first 1800 years of Church history there was
no notion of a pre-trib rapture" is incorrect --
not a lie, just stupid.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I see nobody wants to talk about this

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.

Your argument about the rapture and second coming being two different events is like a kid's song. Ed (Mc)Edwards had a pretrib view, ee i ee i oh, here a verse, there a verse, everywhere a verse, verse just to make it work.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

The amazing time machine of John Darby.

In 1830 John Darby specified in writing
for the first time, and first used
the term "pretribulation" for the raptured.
Later, in the 1870s he even taught
pretribulationism in the Americas.
What was neat was when he invented a time
machine and went back to 1611
and convinced the 48 translators of the
King James Version to insert
"falling away" into 2 Thessalonains 2:3.
John Darby needed this so he could show
the "falling away", the rapture, to happen
before anybody even knows who the
antichrist might be. Then John Darby
had to go back through the preceeding
two centuries and talk the translators
of 7 other English Bibles to insert
"departing" there.
The word in Greek there translated
in the KJV as "falling away" and
in seven earlier English translations
as "departure" is most often translated
in the Bible as "apostasy". "Apostasy"
is a word available to the translators
of the eight English versions mentioned
above, but the translators did NOT
choose to use the word "apostasy".

"Apostasy" means falling away from the
truth. "Apostasy" means departure
from the truth. But when Jesus comes to
get us before the tribulation period
and take us to heaven, we will fall away
from our earthly bodies and be housed
in a new eternal body. When Jesus comes
to get us, we will depart from this world
and be taken by Jesus to heaven.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I see nobody wants to talk about this

And you didn't answer my last reply (or that of Tim too)
In each case, you are splitting into two what in the Bible (and throughout Church history) is considered one event. Your citations of 2 Thess 2:1 and Titus 2:13 is an example of you imposing your eschatology (which was first made up less than 200 years ago) on the text, as there is nothing in the context suggesting two separate events. Most of your other citations in the above post present false dichotomies.