The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
"Apostasy" means falling away from the
truth. "Apostasy" means departure
from the truth. But when Jesus comes to
get us before the tribulation period
and take us to heaven, we will fall away
from our earthly bodies and be housed
in a new eternal body. When Jesus comes
to get us, we will depart from this world
and be taken by Jesus to heaven.

Where did you get your definition of apostasy?

Here are some various definitions of apostasy from credible sources.

Apostasy; Apostate - I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith. International Standard Bible Encylopedia

Apostasy - An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion. Webster

Apostasy - Defection from the faith, an act of unpardonable rebellion against God and his truth. The sin of apostasy results in the abandonment of Christian doctrine and conduct. With respect to the covenant relationship established through prior profession of faith (passive profession in the case of baptized infants), apostates place themselves under the curse and wrath of God as covenant breakers, having entered into a state of final and irrevocable condemnation. Those who apostatize are thus numbered among the reprobate. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The early church reformers (Calvin, Luther, Etc.)
didn't deal with minor doctrines but with
the major ones: the nature of Christ,
the nature of God, the nature of Salvation, etc.
The revival of premillinnialism left it wide open
for somebody to discover the pretribulation
rapture taught in the Holy Bible.
The pre-tribulation rapture theory was
postulated about 1830, the postribulation
only rapture theory about 1937,
the prewrath rapture theory about 1959.

Actually, Ed, the church fathers who commented on end times all agreed that the church would be persecuted by the Antichrist, and then would be rescued by the coming of Christ. Sounds like posttrib or prewrath to me. OTOH, none split the second coming in two as you and other pretribbers do. The idea that somebody "discovered" pre-trib eschatology 1800 years after Christ (with nary a mention before then) is highly problematic, since the Mormons also claimed to discover the "true teachings of Christ" that were supposedly lost shortly after the Apostles died.

 

[LadyEagle]

The title of this thread is: "The questionable Pretribulation Rapture."

I'm truly sorry there are those who do not believe they will go up to "meet Him in the air" at the sound of the trumpet. You will be missed.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by SheEagle:
The title of this thread is: "The questionable Pretribulation Rapture."

I'm truly sorry there are those who do not believe they will go up to "meet Him in the air" at the sound of the trumpet. You will be missed.

It's not necessarily a question of whether or not we'll meet Christ in the air; it's when that meeting will take place (and then what comes next...)

That being said, I'm truly sorry for those who incorrectly think that they'll be raptured before the Antichrist comes on the scene.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by SheEagle:
The title of this thread is: "The questionable Pretribulation Rapture."

I'm truly sorry there are those who do not believe they will go up to "meet Him in the air" at the sound of the trumpet. You will be missed.

The sequel will be called:
THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE BIBLICAL TRUTH.

One of the key prayers of the first
quarter of the 4th century (301-325AD)
was to "have a glorious martyrdom".
I pray that prayer for those present
who will enter the Tribulation Period.
May God grant you a glorious martyrdom
and a grand posthumous award ceremony.
Amen.

Personally i'm going to hope that
Jesus comes to get me BEFORE the
Tribulation Period.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: "Actually, Ed, the church fathers who
commented on end times all agreed that the church would
be persecuted by the Antichrist, and then would
be rescued by the coming of Christ."

Probably so.
Which Church?
According to the Bible, especially Romans 11
there are two elect:
1) the largely gentile Christians
2) the Jewish Israeli
there are two sets of saints:
1) the largely gentile Christians elect
2) the Jewish Israeli elect
there are two churches:
1) the largely gentile Christians elect saints
2) the Jewish Israeli elect saints

SO which "church" did the ECF think would
be persecuted by AC?

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 17 July 2002;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Doubting Thomas: "Actually, Ed, the church fathers who
commented on end times all agreed that the church would
be persecuted by the Antichrist, and then would
be rescued by the coming of Christ."

Probably so.
Which Church?
According to the Bible, especially Romans 11
there are two elect:
1) the largely gentile Christians
2) the Jewish Israeli
there are two sets of saints:
1) the largely gentile Christians elect
2) the Jewish Israeli elect
there are two churches:
1) the largely gentile Christians elect saints
2) the Jewish Israeli elect saints

SO which "church" did the ECF think would
be persecuted by AC?

The ONE church of the New Covenant (Eph 2:11-22)

In regards to Romans 11 the Jews and are Gentiles are branches (either natural or grafted) of ONE tree. The "elect" Jews are the ones that become grafted back onto that ONE tree (vs.23-25)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Doubting Thomas: //The ONE church of the New Covenant (Eph 2:11-22)

In regards to Romans 11 the Jews and are Gentiles
are branches (either natural or grafted) of ONE tree.
The "elect" Jews are the ones that become grafted
back onto that ONE tree (vs.23-25)//

This will be true until the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
of the mostly gentile (but including some Messianic Jews)
born-again, elect saints church. Then that
elect saints church will be in heaven.
Then God gets back to the Jewish Israeli elect saints church
-- the rapture changes things, you know.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Doubting Thomas: //The ONE church of the New Covenant (Eph 2:11-22)

In regards to Romans 11 the Jews and are Gentiles
are branches (either natural or grafted) of ONE tree.
The "elect" Jews are the ones that become grafted
back onto that ONE tree (vs.23-25)//

This will be true until the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
of the mostly gentile (but including some Messianic Jews)
born-again, elect saints church. Then that
elect saints church will be in heaven.
Then God gets back to the Jewish Israeli elect saints church
-- the rapture changes things, you know.

Once again, you're imposing your eschatology onto the text rather than deriving your belief from it.

Later....

 

[Tim too]

Doubting Thomas,

I sent you a private message.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come unless the
apostasy comes first and
the man of lawlessnes is revealed,
the son of destricution.

Oops eek!
The new Holman Christian Standard
Bible (HCSB) has a new testament out.
The hired help at the Southern Baptist
Convention Sunday School Board is
sponsoring the HCSB.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come unless the
apostasy comes first and
the man of lawlessnes is revealed,
the son of destricution.

Thanks for posting this Scripture again. Here again are the verses that have yet to be adequately answered from the text by the Pretribbers.

Ed, I guess you are about the only person that believes in the rapture enough to try to defend it or everyone else that believes in it doesn't care if there are unbiblical descrepencies.

By the way here are some definitions of Apostasy again just for the record.

Apostasy; Apostate - I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith. International Standard Bible Encylopedia

Apostasy - An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion. Webster

Apostasy - Defection from the faith, an act of unpardonable rebellion against God and his truth. The sin of apostasy results in the abandonment of Christian doctrine and conduct. With respect to the covenant relationship established through prior profession of faith (passive profession in the case of baptized infants), apostates place themselves under the curse and wrath of God as covenant breakers, having entered into a state of final and irrevocable condemnation. Those who apostatize are thus numbered among the reprobate. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology


In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Trotter]

Nope...I believe in the Rapture, and that it will be before the Tribulation and the revelation of antichrist. As far as the length of the Tribulation, don't know, and don't plan on being here for it

. [Actually, I don't feel like getting into an arguement right now. I'll just hold on to my Blessed Hope...]

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Trotter]

Oh, and by the way, I don't rightly appreciate the title of the thread. It is one thing the disagree with another's views, but it is a whole other matter to declare them as "questionable" in the very title of the thread. Very much without taste or tact, IMO.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Trotter:
Oh, and by the way, I don't rightly appreciate the title of the thread. It is one thing the disagree with another's views, but it is a whole other matter to declare them as "questionable" in the very title of the thread. Very much without taste or tact, IMO.

In Christ,
Trotter

Trotter,

I put the "questionable Pretribulation Rapture" because it is. I grew up believing every bit of it. It wasn't until someone questioned it and challenged me to study it out, that I began to see the whole thing is full of holes. Look at any of the seven things I listed that caused me problems. Please just give a Scriptural solution to any of them. By Scriptural I mean take the problem listed and deal with it in the context of the passage or passages that it is in. No one has sufficiently done that yet. No Pretribbers but brother Ed was even interested in debating it for any length of time. Even more sad than that, no one seems to care to research the problems I listed to see if what they believe could be wrong.

Your statement, "Very much without taste or tact, IMO" is true in the sense that I meant to cause everyone that believes in the Pretribulation Rapture to get riled up enough to check it out.


In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

1. Realise that 1 Thessalonians 4:13
to 5:11 is all on one subject:
the rapture event.
I've shown elsehwere that the
rapture event and the Second Advent event
both occur in ONE DAY which is 7-years
long but are two seperate and distinct
events. The whole 7-years of the
Tribulation Period are wrath
with the last 3½-years being wrath
with a captial "W" and the end of the
Tribualtion Period being WRATH (all caps).

 

[Ed Edwards]

2. Signs in the heavens.
There are two major signs that accompany the return
of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said
He would send His angels into the four corners
of the world to gather His elect.
(Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31,
Mk 13:24-28, Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

Interesting collection of scriptures,
interesting miscaluclation of what they mean.

Acts 2:20-21 is in a passage where Peter
says that the prophesy of Joel 2:31 has
been fulfilled. Hello! If the Bible says
in Acts 2 that Joel 2 has been fulfilled,
then Joel 2 has been fulfilled
(optionally you can believe NOT to beleive
the Bible, but this path is deadly).

Hello! The LAST DAYS started on the Day of
Pentacost in 33AD. The last days have been
going on 1,970 years and still going strong.
The Day of the Lord, including the Millinnial
(1,000 year) Reign of Christ on the literal/physical
throne of David, is included in THE LAST DAYS.
So the LAST DAYS has to be 2,970 years + in
length.

These scriptures: Matt 24:29-31,
Mk 13:24-28, Lk 21:25-28 are three
different versions of the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD)
which i've discussed up topic.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
1. Realise that 1 Thessalonians 4:13
to 5:11 is all on one subject:
the rapture event.
I've shown elsehwere that the
rapture event and the Second Advent event
both occur in ONE DAY which is 7-years
long but are two seperate and distinct
events. The whole 7-years of the
Tribulation Period are wrath
with the last 3½-years being wrath
with a captial "W" and the end of the
Tribualtion Period being WRATH (all caps).

I'd like to see you defend this with scripture. I find scripture describes two distinct events:

1. The great tribulation, which begins when the man of sin is revealed (abomination of desolation)

2. The Day of the Lord, often called the Day of the Lord's wrath, or otherwise associated with wrath

The two do not even overlap.

Jesus says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven..." These are the signs that precede the Day of the Lord.

Joel continually describes the Day of the Lord as a period of wrath, and comes right out and says, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD." So the order of events is very clear.

Joel even hints at the protection of the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, as mentioned in Revelation: "For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness. 16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel."

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
1. Realise that 1 Thessalonians 4:13
to 5:11 is all on one subject:
the rapture event.
I've shown elsehwere that the
rapture event and the Second Advent event
both occur in ONE DAY which is 7-years
long but are two seperate and distinct
events. The whole 7-years of the
Tribulation Period are wrath
with the last 3½-years being wrath
with a captial "W" and the end of the
Tribualtion Period being WRATH (all caps).

Originally posted by npetreley:
I'd like to see you defend this with scripture.

Me too.


In the love of Christ,
Tim