According to Job 14:12 & Matthew 13, there will only be one resurrection when Christ returns. The unbelievers will be reaped (not raptured) out of the earth first, & then believers as Christ destroys the universe. That is the Biblical timetable. It all happens in a single day; not over hundreds of years with multiple Returns, resurrections, raptures, & re-establishment of the fulfilled Old Covenant; as represented on convoluted dispy charts.
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The Rapture: How close are we?
- Thread starter righteousdude2
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thisnumbersdisconnected
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John writes in his first epistle:
1 John, NASB
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Only believers will "see Him just as He is," at His appearing to take us out of the world and prepare it for judgment. If the world were to see Him "just as He is" at that time, they would fall on their knees and worship Him. But the world undergoes judgment, so the world does not see Jesus at that time. Only when He comes in judgment will the whole world see Him, and then it will be too late for them to worship Him and proclaim Him. Certainly, at that time, "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" Him, but only out of fear and dread at the coming end of all things.
When He sends His angels to reap the wicked & the saved from the earth, ALL will see Him. Not on television(a mind-numbingly stupid notion), but with their own eyes. The mental gymnastics needed to force a pre-Second Coming "rapture" into Scripture is incredible.
He could return today or 10,000yrs from today. It makes no difference to me. The hope of the Church is not in a fictional "rapture" of a minuscule percentage of believers from the beginning of time. It is in the person, work, & resurrection of Christ. His resurrection is the event that gives us hope(assured belief) that our faith is not in vain. Why is our own resurrection needed for hope? It is our bodies that will die, not our spirits. Those who die before the Second Coming are/will be alive & well with Christ. Their hope has been made reality. Unless some think they are still looking forward, in hope, for the day they have a new body. As though their hope is not fulfilled until that day.
He could return today or 10,000yrs from today. It makes no difference to me. The hope of the Church is not in a fictional "rapture" of a minuscule percentage of believers from the beginning of time. It is in the person, work, & resurrection of Christ. His resurrection is the event that gives us hope(assured belief) that our faith is not in vain. Why is our own resurrection needed for hope? It is our bodies that will die, not our spirits. Those who die before the Second Coming are/will be alive & well with Christ. Their hope has been made reality. Unless some think they are still looking forward, in hope, for the day they have a new body. As though their hope is not fulfilled until that day.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Gymnastics not required. Assembly not required. Those are necessitated only by a mindset predisposed to disassemble biblical truth and remake it in the reader's own image.
One can pull some verses out of context AND deny the literalism of others and justify any position one wants.
Years ago I did a good bit of comparing the "proofs" of the various schools of thought on the end times, and found that any of the positions could be justified following the above recipe of interpretation.
My conclusion is that pre-trib, pre-mil offers the fewest problems by taking the Word as literal - except where context and/or scripture itself declares otherwise - and keeping the passages in context.
Am I correct? I don't know, but I do know what I believe --- according to scripture, whether my reasoning is correct or not.:godisgood:
Years ago I did a good bit of comparing the "proofs" of the various schools of thought on the end times, and found that any of the positions could be justified following the above recipe of interpretation.
My conclusion is that pre-trib, pre-mil offers the fewest problems by taking the Word as literal - except where context and/or scripture itself declares otherwise - and keeping the passages in context.
Am I correct? I don't know, but I do know what I believe --- according to scripture, whether my reasoning is correct or not.:godisgood:
When I read that nobody knows the hour or the time, not even the son nor the angels....and that The Lord would come like a thief in the night......I quit worrying about it altogether. Nobody knows or will ever figure it out.
I like how John Hagee thinks he has it all figured out. It is quite laughable
I like how John Hagee thinks he has it all figured out. It is quite laughable
yes, as the rapture will be for His body to get resurrected/glorified to be with Him, while the Second Coming will be visible to all upon the earth, and time of vegence and wrath!
Scripture directly refutes a resurrection years before His Second Coming.
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12)
What does Jesus have to say about this event?
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:37-42
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Peter 3:10-12
It doesn't get any clearer than that. The lost are reaped(correct term) from the Earth before the believers, and this event takes place at His Second Coming. Anything else is man-made false-doctrine.
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Paul stated Jesus returns specidiclly for just His own , and when he reutns after that, will be to earth to judge and rule the nations!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
1. Your Scriptures fail to prove your point.
2. Using large font doesn't make you right, just makes you obnoxious.
SURE we can, but we shouldn't have to.
This is a debate site, not an educational site.
Debate means two people who know the issues come together to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of each- one defending his opinion and the other his.
If you need us to SUBSTANTIATE this claim that means you don't know how people have for many years substantiated it which means you SHOULD NOT BE DEBATING IT because you don't know enough about it TO debate it.
beameup
Member
To the Church, The Bride of Christ:
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord [Tribulation] so cometh as a thief in the night.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1 Thess 5:1,2,4,5
For Jewish disciples, true Israel, and yet future... for the Tribulation:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt 24:36
The Father decides when to fetch the Bride of Christ and bring her to the Son. And that's when "all hell breaks loose" on the earth.
Time is short.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord [Tribulation] so cometh as a thief in the night.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1 Thess 5:1,2,4,5
For Jewish disciples, true Israel, and yet future... for the Tribulation:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt 24:36
The Father decides when to fetch the Bride of Christ and bring her to the Son. And that's when "all hell breaks loose" on the earth.
Time is short.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Pffft! Then it isn't a debate, it's just "because I said so."
Obviously you don't know what a debate is, or your statement would have been left where it belongs -- inside your mind, unspoken.
Hardly. I means I'm calling g2c on an unsupported statement that carries erroneous information.
Haven't kept up, what claim, that the rapture is a made up 19th century doctrine?
You want me to hold your hand, read to you at night? You want proof that there are people who don't buy the whole rapture scheme, read a book.
New International Commentary of the New Testament, The Book of Revelation by Mounce
Worthy is the Lamb - commentary by Summers
The Life Beyond - Summers
The End Times Made Simple by Waldon
End Time Delusions by Wohlberg
The Returning King by Poythress
You want me to hold your hand, read to you at night? You want proof that there are people who don't buy the whole rapture scheme, read a book.
New International Commentary of the New Testament, The Book of Revelation by Mounce
Worthy is the Lamb - commentary by Summers
The Life Beyond - Summers
The End Times Made Simple by Waldon
End Time Delusions by Wohlberg
The Returning King by Poythress
saturneptune
New Member
Thanks, that sounds reasonable.
problem is that to accept all of them, have to filter the entire bible through covenant theology spiritual lens!
They have their mind set to prove the scriptures per that filter put on beforehand!
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Just Joined This Discussion....
Folks....I haven't read all 8 pages of this discussion and don't think I need to....there will always be much disagreement about this matter but the bottom line is that whether Christ calls us out of here in the next 5 minutes or waits another 2 or 300 years (or more) the early church believers believed that Christ could return within THEIR lifetime and were exhorted in God's Word to BE READY by living holy lives that honored their Saviour. I HOPE the rapture happens soon but if I go to Heaven by way of the grave then that's OK too. Either way...we should all be living with the exhortation of Titus 2: 11-14 and Romans 12: 1-2 in our minds and hearts. We should surrender ALL to Him and serve Him without hesitation or reservation that we may be found faithful when He comes....and make no mistake about it....He IS coming!
God Bless All here on the BB.
Greg Perry Sr.:saint:
Folks....I haven't read all 8 pages of this discussion and don't think I need to....there will always be much disagreement about this matter but the bottom line is that whether Christ calls us out of here in the next 5 minutes or waits another 2 or 300 years (or more) the early church believers believed that Christ could return within THEIR lifetime and were exhorted in God's Word to BE READY by living holy lives that honored their Saviour. I HOPE the rapture happens soon but if I go to Heaven by way of the grave then that's OK too. Either way...we should all be living with the exhortation of Titus 2: 11-14 and Romans 12: 1-2 in our minds and hearts. We should surrender ALL to Him and serve Him without hesitation or reservation that we may be found faithful when He comes....and make no mistake about it....He IS coming!
God Bless All here on the BB.
Greg Perry Sr.:saint:
true, but even Spurgeon seemed to agree with at least a pre Mil returning of Jesus, do you?
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