Good Afternoon Carl!
You say,
The Bible STATES that there was a MASSIVE APOSTASY in Asia "during Paul's LIFETIME". (2 Tim. 1)
I find 2 Tim. 1:15 says, "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia(now Turkey) be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes."
Yes there was apostasy in Turkey during Paul's time. But, there are so many apostasies throughout many centuries during Church history since Pentacost Day to now. Bible tells us, apostasy is getting increasing worst throughout the Church history as it toward climax - Matt. 24:12; 2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1-2; 2 Tim. 3:1-7; & 2 Tim. 4:3-4. Bible predicts the apostasy would become worst throughout centuries of the Church history in the last days toward to the end of the age.
There are PLENTY of split comingS (appearances)
In your own views. Bible does not teaching according to your belief.
When Jesus came to the synagogue. He opened the book of Isaiah, and preaching to the people. He said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach 'the acceptable year of the Lord'." - Luke 4:18-19. Christ quoted it from Isaiah 61:1-2. But, Christ stopped in the middle of Isa. 61:2, as He closed it. He left "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn." out of his preaching, as He closed it.
Why does he left it out? I believe Christ emphasis 'the acceptable year of the Lord' that we are in this present age, that the gospel is spread to the world. It is happening since after Christ's first advent at Calvary from Pentacost Day to today, and will continue preaching the gospel of salvation through great tribulation. This is the first advent of Christ.
"The day of vengeance of our God" is a future event, its speak of Christ's second advent to judge the world.
See? there is only two advents teaching in the Bible. There is no another splits comings afterward of "the acceptable year of the Lord".
40 days later after Christ's resurrection. When after Christ gave His great commission to His disciples, He ascend up into the heaven. Disciples were stare up in the clouds. Suddenly, two angels appeared in midst of them. And told them, Why stare up there? They said to them, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this
SAME Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so
COME in LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven." - Acts 1:11.
Bible does not teaching us, Christ shall come like as 'Yo-Yo's'. Bible tells us, Christ shall come again in visible at once. At the first advent, Christ left Mt. Olivet, then at the second advent, He shall descend on Mt. Olivet - Zech. 14:4.
The resurrection of Christians shall not be occured till Christ must come first.
Early Christians said, the resurrection has already past - 2 Tim. 2:18. They were error saying of it.
Right now, we notice the cementary, see the graves all are still cover the bodies. Every person over the world are dying daily. We know that the resurrection is not yet occured now. Because Christ is not yet appear.
1 Thess. 4:15-17 telling us, the resurrection shall not be occur yet till Christ first must come, then the resurrection will be occured, THEN rapture second.
Thousands or millions of the saints will be continued killed by the beast in the great tribulation, obivously, Christ is not yet appear, and the resurrection is not yet occured.
You say,
You just quoted 1 Thess. 4 which speaks of the DEAD IN CHRIST AND LIVING being gathered, then crossed it with Rev. 20 which speaks ONLY of dead saints KILLED by the beast, who received a resurrection AFTER Christ has returned. Check Rev. 19. It comes BEFORE Rev. 20. That's NOT a match.
Whilst in my early Christian life, I used to believed the Book of Revelation were written into chronological order. Like as 7 seals of the first 3 1/2 years of seven year Tribulation Period, 7 trumpets in the middle of seven year of Tribulation Period, 7 vials in the last of 3 1/2 years of seven year of Tribulation Period. Now, I realized the Book of Revelation was written into cycles, parallels, or retelling the events. All of seals, trumpets, and vials are merge together toward Christ's coming at the same.
Rev. 6:12-15 at the sixth seal will be broken at the end of tribulation period comparing of Matt. 24:29-30 about the cosmic disturbance. The seventh trumpet (last trump) will be blown in Rev. 11:15-18 show that the two witnesses(symbolic as we are Christ's witnesses) shall be risen at the seventh trumpet, and then Christ shall judge the world, and give rewards to the saints(Rev. 11:18. At the sixth vial, Euphrate River shall be dried up, allow army of the East to march across it preparing for the battle of Armageddon, Christ shall come for 'thief in the night', blessed that person who is watch and ready shall be caught up before Christ will destroyed armies at Armageddon - Rev. 16:12-16. Then, the seventh vail says, "It is done".
Yes, Revelation 19:11-21 mentioned Christ's coming. That's correct.
There are details in the Book of Revelation mentioned Christ's coming like as Rev. 1:7; Rev. 6:12-15; Rev. 10:7; Rev. 11:15-18; Rev. 14:14-20; Rev. 16:15; Rev. 19:11-21; and Rev. 20:9.
These are retelling the events of Christ's coming.
Same as sixth trumpet & sixth vial tell us, Euphrate River shall be dried up. Does it mean it shall be occured twice? No. It show us, these are retelling the events. Remember- seals, trumpets, and vials are all merge together toward the end at Christ's coming.
Also, the word, 'resurrection' does
not appear in the Book of Revelation TILL Rev. 20:5. Obivously, we shall face tribulations and persecutions first before resurrection occured.
Pretrib inteprets Revelation into chronological order. That why, pretrib sayings Christ arrived in Rev 19 BEFORE millennial kingdom begins - Rev. 20.
Revelation chapter 20 is a heavily symbolic meanings, and figurative meanings.
Revelation chapter 20 is a deep discuss on the issue of millennium doctrine. I used myself as premill before for a long time. I became amill only 4 years ago. I will discuss on this in other topic.
You say,
You PRIVATELY(emphasis mine) INTERPRETED the saints to be MEMBERS of the body (Christians), then used "false prooftexts" identifying the word, tribulation, As the great tribulation of Matt. 24. It's not. The TEXT of 1 Thess. 3 PROVES that fact.
Pretrib deny 'saints' of Rev. 13:7, 10; 14:12 are the members of Christ's Body as Church. Pretrib saying, they are separated from the Church, because they will miss rapture, will have another chance to become saved during great tribulation.
But their teaching is unbiblical.
Also, I do NOT do privately intepreting the scriptures. I understand the scriptures, because I have been reading and studying them - 2 Tim. 2:15. Also, 2 Peter 1:20 says, "Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE interpretation."
Bible does not give us of any strange interpretation or any kinds of teachings. Bible reveals us that we can understand what all of these are talking about. That what 2 Tim. 2:15 is for.
Aren't we the saints - 1 Cor. 14:33 - "...but of peace , as in
ALL churches of the saints." ?
I am sure that many pretribs are aware that 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 mean Christians, no doubt. But, yet, they say, they are not belong to Christ's body. Aren't the saints (Rev. 13:7) the Bride of Christ's? - Rev. 21:9?
There is NO difference between 'tribulation' & 'great tribulation' of Matt 24:21. Both are same defintion. Church already experinced tribulations throughout all centuries to today since pentacost day. There are many different varities and levels kinds of tribulations they faced, some are light, some are heavy, some are small, some are great, some are horrible. There are many different levels of tribulations, Chu4ch faced, yet these are same defintion, because Christ already suffered on the cross - 1 Peter 2:21, so, therefore, we ought to follow Christ's example - John 16:33; & 1 Peter 2:21.
I believe Matt 24:21 speaks of future event, that there shall be great tribulation, it will be much more worst than all tribulations in the Church history. Many Christians will be killed by the beast during great tribulation.
Also, pretrib saying, there is no word 'church' appear from Rev. 4 to 19, prove Church is gone by rapture in Revelation chapter 4. But, neither John saying 'church' is appear UP in the heaven between chapter 4 to 19 either.
Prerib's logically is fallacy.
No way that 'saints' of Rev. 13:7 is separated from Christ's Bride of Rev. 21:9. Saints of Rev. 13:7 always belong to Christ's. Saints same mean as Christians.
You say,
There's NOT a pretribulationist ALIVE who doesn't know that Christ is coming back, AFTER the tribulation. The GATHERING of the body of Christ through is ANOTHER MATTER. It is BEFORE the day of the Lord, which INCLUDES the time of the woman in travail (1 Thess. 5, Jer. 30), which is The GREAT TRIBULATION, according to the Lord Jesus.
Yes, many pretribulationists are aware ot Maatt. 24:29-31 telling us, that Christ is coming back after tribulation. No way for pretrib to find a verse to prove that Christ is coming back BEFORE tribulation.
You not yet show me prove a verse saying Rapture will be occur 3 1/2 years earlier BEFORE Christ's coming. I am still waiting for you to prove a clear verse to me.
'The GATHERING of the body of Christ through is ANOTHER MATTER'.
Another matter?
There is no difference between Matt. 24:31 & 1 Thess. 4:16-17, both are same passage talking about Rapture.
Word, 'rapture' is not find anywhere in the Bible. Rapture is same as gathering together & 'caught up'.
You saying 'do not be confuse between 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord'.
Actually, both are same defintion & event.
Day of Christ speaks of Christ's coming. Day of the Lord speaks of Lord's coming for to judge the world.
Day of the Lord shall NOT come till AFTER cosmic disturbance occred first - Joel 2:31; 3:14-15. Day of the Lord cannot be occur yet TILL after sun, moon, and stars darkened. Same with Matt. 24:29-30.
Day of the Lord is not seven year of tribulation period. It is Christ's coming to judge the world.
None in the Bible saying, the day of the Lord stretches into 7 years or 1007 years. Zeph. 1:14-15 tells us, the day of the Lord is A day for to judge the world shall be at Lord's coming.
Often, pretrib teaching on 1 Thess 4 & 5, they saying, both are different events. They saying 1 Thess. 4 speaks of rapture, 1 Thess 5 speaks of tribulation.
Understand, during Paul's time in year around 57 A.D., there was NO chapter & verse. Paul wrote them as epistle. The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-5:9 focus on the same subject talking about Lord's coming. I understand 1 Thess. 5:2-3 tell us, when Christ shall come like as "thief in the night" speak of shocked to the world, that the angels will grab them away for the judgement day - Matt. 13:28-30; 39-42; Matt. 24:40-41; Matt. 25:31-33; & 2 Thess. 1:7-10.
I am sure that, many pretrib teaching on 1 Thess. 5:3 - 'peace and safety' speaks of peace treaty with Israel. But, not what Paul was actually talking about. 1 Thess. 5:3 speaks of the current world conditional, what the people are doing. "Peace and safety" describes of people think, we are peace and safety, because they have everything like, having life insurance, 401K, wealthy, money, strong security, etc. Most Christians in America feel safety because of high security. They think everything seem fine no problem. Same with Noah's day of Matt. 24:38, what they were doing before the flood came. When the flood came and it took all away, same with "thief in the night" shall be at Christ's coming - Matt. 24:39.
I know pretrib's teaching of Jer. 30:7 - "Jacob's trouble" mean seven years of Tribulation period FOR Israel is future event.
But, they misintepreting Jer. 30:7, what Jermeiah, the prophet was talking about. The only way, that we could understand Jer. 30:7, what it is talking about. We have to read start with the CONTEXT at Jeremiah chapter 29 thru chapter 30. Jeremiah chapter 29 and 30 talking about the warning to Israel, that Israel shall suffer punishment, by send Babylon to invade Israel, because of their rebellion against God. Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago. Jer. 29:4 - Jeremiah warned to Israel, that God said, He will send Israel away to Babylon. Later, it fulfilled that Babylon did invaded Jerusalem, and took Hebrews away into captivity for 70 years.
Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled that Israel was in great trouble caused by Babylon invaded them in year around 560 B.C.(I am not sure what exactly year was). Then, "but he shall be SAVED out of it." fulfilled 70 years later after their captivity, Israel returned to Jerualem during Ezra's time. Notice Jer. 30:8-10 speak of set Israle freed from their capitvity, and return back to their home again.
Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30 already fulfilled about 2,500 years ago. Jer. 30:7 does not discuss about the future supposed seven years of Tribulation. Not what Jeremiah, the prophet was actually talking about. We have to be carefully, what we reading the context of Jeremiah chapter 29 & 30.
By the way, I am NOT a preterist. I understand what the scriptures are talking about. That is how the way I read and study according to 2 Tim. 2:15.
I do believe Christ's coming is a FUTURE event.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
