37818
Well-Known Member
Regardless of one's eschatological view, I cannot understand how one can deny ". . . shall be caught up . . ." -in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The rapture.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Indeed, caught up - Greek harpazo
same word in 2 Corinthians 12:2
Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Its mostly a timing issue for those who under stand this as a literal catching away.
"The Rapture" is usually understood to be a pre-wrath taking away of Christians prior to the Tribulation. However, even Amillennialists understand the dead in Christ will be resurrected to join with saints that are living. Whether that means they come in the air to meet with living saints or not is not without some debate. Of more importance is that all those who are in Christ will all be with the Lord. FWIW, I view this passage as referring to the second coming, not a pre-wrath taking away.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
1 Thess 4:17 is the key "Rapture proof text". The context of the passage is the 2nd Coming. Paul is telling the Thessalonians the order of the Resurrection. God will bring with Him those who have died in Christ (v. 14), those who are alive and remain until His coming will not precede those who have died (v. 15), the Lord will descend (v. 16), then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with those who have preceded them in death (v. 17). All believers will eventually be together in Christ's presence.
This passage doesn't teach a physical removal of believers. This would serve no purpose. Jesus prayed "I do not ask You to take them out of the word, but to keep them from the Evil One" (John 17:15). Christ compared His return with the days of Noah, where the unrighteous were taken away, and the righteous went through the flood but were saved.
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
I believe the rapture happens at the second coming, that is appearing, Hebrews 9:28, Titus 2:13.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
My apologies. I just now edited my first reply to expound upon my view. I believe the passages from Hebrews and Titus are about Christ's return, not the Rapture.
Coming from a pre trib pre mill background.
The way I read the surrounding text fits this idea much nicer as well. The thessalonians are concerned about those who have died before the 2nd coming and Paul gives them doctrine so they can understand.
Telling them they will be teleported away soon and then that not happening wouldn't have been of any comfort.
Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk
37818
Well-Known Member
What do you mean? The context of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the bodily resurrection of the dead, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
37818
Well-Known Member
Well it is my understanding at His appearing is when the rapture takes place, 1 John 3:2.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
The broader context of this passage begins in verse 13. I completely agree that the subject is the resurrection of the dead. The only way I've ever seen a rapture there is because that was the only explanation for this verse that I ever heard for many years. Part of moving to the Partial Preterist view involved a different understanding of many passages including this one.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
From that passage, I understand that we will bear His likeness when He comes. However, I don't see any hint of the rapture there. As my wife often reminds me, I could be wrong. We won't know for sure until He does come.
Something we agree on. I see no hint of it either
37818
Well-Known Member
I am of the view point, not soon but sudden (Matthew 24:27).
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
The rapture is purely the reference in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, ". . . shall be caught up . . . ." And from the Latin, "rapiemur."
Lodic
Well-Known Member
No problem with the phrase meaning "caught up". The disagreement is in the meaning of the phrase. The idea of being caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air is a picture of God's elect being brought into His presence. Looking at v. 16, "descend" was used to describe the priest's descent from the temple to announce that atonement had been completed. Of course, Jesus is our High Priest.
Have you ever compared 1 Thes 4:16 through 5:7 with Matthew 24:30-49? The parallels are fascinating. In both passages, Christ returns with a shout, accompanied by an angel with the trumpet of God. Both passages describe Believers gathered in the clouds, and the time is unknown - He will come as a thief. Unbelievers are unaware of the judgement in both passages. Judgement comes as travail upon expectant mothers. Both passages tell Believers to watch, and both have a warning against drunkenness.
37818
Well-Known Member
I believe Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. And until then, Jesus is our High Priest at the right hand of God per Hebrews 9:12 and Hebrews 9:24 and will not leave there until His second appearing Hebrews 9:28. Notice in Hebrews 9:12 He enters the Holy of Holies of Heaven once for all, even as He only died once for all on the cross (Hebrews 10:10).
So the so called pre-trib rapture denies the once for all of Hebrews 9:12, and when confronted with this makes excuses.
Break it down for me how does it deny it?
Just as with the misunderstanding of the passage.