The rapture

[Judith]

There are three things that I believe that many miss-understand about the rapture. First the rapture IS NOT the coming of the Lord. The rapture is the leaving of the saints past and present. The Lord calls and we leave.

Second most think that their will be millions of people alive that are Christians and taken in the rapture. I think they get that from the series left behind.

As mentioned in scripture the times will be like the times of Lot and Noah. In both cases there was only a few who were spared that coming judgment and destruction, and the reason was that there was only a few who were of God. I believe that the same will be at the rapture and because of that no explanation will be needed as it won't be millions of people missing, just a few which will be easy to explain if needed at all.

The third thing that I think miss-understood, and this will upset many, is that I believe that unsaved children/babies WILL NOT go in the rapture. The reason is they did not go at the flood, and there must have been many, nor at the time of Lot, and also there must have been many since sex of all kinds was running wild so certainly some children and babies must have been in that area. Only those who were of God, saved, were spared the judgment that fell on the earth.

Now someone will object based on the age of accountability. The problem is it did not save those babies and children who had not come to an actual saving faith from what came upon them at the time of Lot and Noah. The age of accountability is only incorporated in the case of death and would not be included in the rapture.

Let us also keep in mind that the falling away must come first so I believe that means that while many may profess to be saved only a very few will actually be saved at the time of the rapture and only those who are actually saved, have come to real saving faith, will be taken.

Those children and babies that remain behind, if they die during the tribulation period, and are under the age of accountability when they die, will go to be with the Lord, but not in the rapture. This is my understanding and opinion based on what scripture reveals.

 

[xlsdraw]

IMO, I suspect that most, if not all, that are saved during the Great Tribulation, will be young people.

The precedent is there, with those that were adults that had repeatedly angered God, being held responsible and killed off by God in the 40 years in the wilderness. While God preserved the younger generation, not holding them responsible for the adults continual rebellion.

And then repopulating the earth during with the prepared younger generation during the Millennial Reign, same as he raised up the younger generation in the wilderness to enter in to the land of Canaan.

 

[Dave G]

There are three things that I believe that many miss-understand about the rapture.

First the rapture IS NOT the coming of the Lord. The rapture is the leaving of the saints past and present. The Lord calls and we leave.

I see that it is everything contained in what I've highlighted.
The "rapture" is the coming of the Lord.
Matthew 24:3-42 / Mark 13:3-36.

I also think that people have taken to calling it "the rapture",
because for the believer, it will be that one moment when they finally get to see their Saviour...the one who made their salvation a sure thing.

To see "Christ, who is our life" will be worth all the trouble we've experienced in this world.

Second most think that their will be millions of people alive that are Christians and taken in the rapture. I think they get that from the series left behind.

I believe that at the time of His coming when He sends his angels to gather His elect, most people will be more concerned with hiding from Him than they will be counting the people that are taken up as He is coming down.

Based on the above passages in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, as well as Daniel 9, Daniel 11, Daniel 12 some in the other prophetic books like Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation, the ravages of the 3.5 years ( Daniel 9:27, Daniel 12:11, Revelation 13:5 ) leading up to His second coming will have resulted in the deaths of something like 2/3 of the world's population ( read Revelation starting with Revelation 6 ) by the time it is all over.

 

[Dave G]

As mentioned in scripture the times will be like the times of Lot and Noah. In both cases there was only a few who were spared that coming judgment and destruction, and the reason was that there was only a few who were of God. I believe that the same will be at the rapture and because of that no explanation will be needed as it won't be millions of people missing, just a few which will be easy to explain if needed at all.

I agree with everything you've said above, Judith.

The third thing that I think miss-understood, and this will upset many, is that I believe that unsaved children/babies WILL NOT go in the rapture. The reason is they did not go at the flood, and there must have been many, nor at the time of Lot, and also there must have been many since sex of all kinds was running wild so certainly some children and babies must have been in that area. Only those who were of God, saved, were spared the judgment that fell on the earth.

Now someone will object based on the age of accountability. The problem is it did not save those babies and children who had not come to an actual saving faith from what came upon them at the time of Lot and Noah. The age of accountability is only incorporated in the case of death and would not be included in the rapture.

Based on Psalms 58:3, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:10-11, Romans 3:23 and many more,
I do not believe the Bible teaches a so-called "age of accountability".

Let us also keep in mind that the falling away must come first so I believe that means that while many may profess to be saved only a very few will actually be saved at the time of the rapture and only those who are actually saved, have come to real saving faith, will be taken.

I agree.

 

[Dave G]

@Judith :

To clarify a bit of what I see in my studies about His second coming, I'll summarize some of it below:

Unlike what was popularized by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century, I do not see a "two part second coming" happening in the end;
I see a 7 year period that begins with a peace treaty...
In the middle of that seven year period, a very popular leader ( who has been elected by the world's governments ), will enter the re-built temple in Jerusalem, sit down in the Holy of Holies, and declare himself to be God.

Immediately after that, the events of Revelation 6 and onward to Revelation 19 ( described in some passages of God's word to be "the time of Jacob's Troubles" and what we know as "The Great Tribulation" ) will suddenly begin.
42 months of the worst plagues, disasters, earthquakes, famines, pestilences and all manner of happenings will signify the wrath of God being poured out upon all men, except for His children;
Some of whom will pay with their lives for not taking the mark, and some of whom will evade capture until He comes at the end of it.

Jesus Christ comes back, all eyes shall see Him, and He will send forth His angels to gather His elect, both living and asleep, bodily...
We go to meet Him as He is coming down, in the twinkling of an eye we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

 

[Judith]

IMO, I suspect that most, if not all, that are saved during the Great Tribulation, will be young people.

The precedent is there, with those that were adults that had repeatedly angered God, being held responsible and killed off by God in the 40 years in the wilderness. While God preserved the younger generation, not holding them responsible for the adults continual rebellion.

And then repopulating the earth during with the prepared younger generation during the Millennial Reign, same as he raised up the younger generation in the wilderness to enter in to the land of Canaan.

The only thing with that understanding is the wilderness account took 40 years. The tribulation period is only for 7 and only 3 1/2 of that is actually bad times so the older generation would not have time to die off and be replaced with the younger in 3 1/2 years.

 

[Judith]

@Judith :

To clarify a bit of what I see in my studies about His second coming, I'll summarize some of it below:

Unlike what was popularized by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century, I do not see a "two part second coming" happening in the end;
I see a 7 year period that begins with a peace treaty...
In the middle of that seven year period, a very popular leader ( who has been elected by the world's governments ), will enter the re-built temple in Jerusalem, sit down in the Holy of Holies, and declare himself to be God.

Immediately after that, the events of Revelation 6 and onward to Revelation 19 ( described in some passages of God's word to be "the time of Jacob's Troubles" and what we know as "The Great Tribulation" ) will suddenly begin.
42 months of the worst plagues, disasters, earthquakes, famines, pestilences and all manner of happenings will signify the wrath of God being poured out upon all men, except for His children;
Some of whom will pay with their lives for not taking the mark, and some of whom will evade capture until He comes at the end of it.

Jesus Christ comes back, all eyes shall see Him, and He will send forth His angels to gather His elect, both living and asleep, bodily...
We go to meet Him as He is coming down, in the twinkling of an eye we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

I am afraid that you have miss-quoted scripture to promote your view. Matthew 24:31 KJV: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You notice it does not say from earth but heaven. They are already with the Lord at His second coming. Also the rapture does not teach 2 more comings. It teaches what the bible teaches one calling/rapture and then a second coming

 

[xlsdraw]

Firstly, concerning the "age of accountability", here's a couple of passages to consider:

Numbers 1:2-3

2) Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;
3) From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies.

And

Numbers 14: 21-35

21) But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
22) Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
23) Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
24) But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
25) (Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwelt in the valley.) To morrow turn you, and get you into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.
26) And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27) How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28) Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29) Your carcases shall fall in the wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30) Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31) But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32) But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in the wilderness.
33) And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34) After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
35) I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in the wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.



These are some very explicit verses concerning typology and God's both faithfulness and severity.

Considering this present evil world, including America, where children are raised in godless homes, compelled godless education/indoctrination systems, and godless society in general. I can easily see where God may not hold those under the age of twenty accountable.

 

[Dave G]

I am afraid that you have miss-quoted scripture to promote your view.

I respect that you have a differing opinion...
I also recognize that you think that I am in error.

That is your prerogative.

But, since the Lord is my Teacher ( John 6:45, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ), I will trust Him to correct me on this.
I can only tell you that I have not arrived at this view lightly, or without much study and careful comparison of the Scriptures over many years now.

Matthew 24:31 KJV: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You notice it does not say from earth but heaven.

Yes, I noticed that.
I also notice that if I'm only looking at that one verse, then that is all it shows:

" And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:31 ).

But, then my eyes fall on this... the parallel passage in Mark 13:

" And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." ( Mark 13:27 ).

Now I have more information than the single passage in Matthew 24 is giving me...
I now have the Lord telling me, in addition to gathering them from one end of Heaven to the other, that He will gather them from the uttermost part of the earth.
What that gathering be accompanied by?

The great sound of a trumpet.

 

[Dave G]

They are already with the Lord at His second coming

Both passages, taken together, give me a different picture, Judith.
Some are in Heaven, and some are on earth.

Also the rapture does not teach 2 more comings.

I agree.
The Bible teaches one more coming:

" And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." ( Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11 ).

He will come down as He went up...
With clouds ( Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26 ).

But this time with great power and glory.

 

[Dave G]

It teaches what the bible teaches one calling/rapture and then a second coming

If you'd be willing to show me where this separate "rapture" is described in His word, I'd be happy to take a look at it.
But, as far as I am aware, there are no Scriptures that declare any sort of "gap" similar to what I was taught growing up in Independent Baptist churches after I came to Christ in 1978.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 do not show it in their timeline, nor do I see it anywhere else in the Bible.
When I read those two chapters carefully, I don't see where the Lord takes any of His people out of the world until the end, at His coming again.

As I see it, the ones that are already with Him, come with Him when He comes at the end of the Tribulation;
He sends forth His angels and gathers them, according to Matthew 24 and Mark 13, from the uttermost part of Heaven.

The dead shall rise first:

" For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 )

Then the ones that are alive and remain, will join them.

They will all be changed in the twinkling of and eye, at the last trump...and according to Mark 13, from both the uttermost part of Heaven and the uttermost part of the earth...when He sends forth His angels and gathers them.

 

[Dave G]

@Judith :

Something else for your consideration:
According to His word below, when does this gathering ( "rapture" ) take place?

" Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." ( 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 ).

Here I see that we as believers shall all be changed...at the last trump, the same as the Scriptures told us in my posts above.
Therefore, nothing happens until the last trumpet ( at the end of the Tribulation ) with respect to the dead being raised incorruptible...
There is no resurrection of the dead until that point.

It seems it is a mystery to many...
Yet, that mystery is declared in the Scriptures.

This is my last reply in this thread.
Please consider what has been presented, and weigh it carefully against what you see in God's word.

I wish you well in your studies, and may He bless you in many ways.

 

[timtofly]

The third thing that I think miss-understood, and this will upset many, is that I believe that unsaved children/babies WILL NOT go in the rapture. The reason is they did not go at the flood, and there must have been many, nor at the time of Lot, and also there must have been many since sex of all kinds was running wild so certainly some children and babies must have been in that area. Only those who were of God, saved, were spared the judgment that fell on the earth.

Either they became sterile or population control meant no births period. If you think today is bad, it was much worse at the Flood.

 

[Salty]

Yes - Rapture = Saints called home
and Baptists will be the first to be called up
Well, the Bible does say "The Dead in Christ shall rise first"!

 

[Lodic]

I believe the biggest misunderstanding regarding the rapture is the view that the rapture is a real event that's supposed to happen in our future. As @Dave G mentioned earlier, the popular "rapture" theory was popularized by Darby in the 19th century (@1830, if I remember correctly). This view was further popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible. The rapture doctrine is so prevalent that new Christians are taught this view as if it were as undeniable as the doctrine of the Trinity. I was a Christian for nearly 30 years before I even questioned the Scriptural support for this view.

Christians often read Scripture with a bias toward what they have been taught. For instance, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is used to show this is a valid doctrine. The description that "we who are alive will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" "must" refer to the rapture, because what else could it be? Here's what else it could be - the whole passage is about the Resurrection - an entirely different topic. The idea of being caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air is a picture of God's elect being brought into His presence. For every "proof passage", there is another view for what the passage means.

Finally, let's remember that the Scriptures are inspired, but our interpretations are not. I could be wrong, but so could anyone else. We interpret the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides us, but we still disagree on what they mean. That's not necessarily bad, especially when the topic is not one that affects our salvation.

 

[timtofly]

I believe the biggest misunderstanding regarding the rapture is the view that the rapture is a real event that's supposed to happen in our future. As @Dave G mentioned earlier, the popular "rapture" theory was popularized by Darby in the 19th century (@1830, if I remember correctly). This view was further popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible. The rapture doctrine is so prevalent that new Christians are taught this view as if it were as undeniable as the doctrine of the Trinity. I was a Christian for nearly 30 years before I even questioned the Scriptural support for this view.

Christians often read Scripture with a bias toward what they have been taught. For instance, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is used to show this is a valid doctrine. The description that "we who are alive will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" "must" refer to the rapture, because what else could it be? Here's what else it could be - the whole passage is about the Resurrection - an entirely different topic. The idea of being caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air is a picture of God's elect being brought into His presence. For every "proof passage", there is another view for what the passage means.

Finally, let's remember that the Scriptures are inspired, but our interpretations are not. I could be wrong, but so could anyone else. We interpret the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides us, but we still disagree on what they mean. That's not necessarily bad, especially when the topic is not one that affects our salvation.

So the alive in Christ are exactly those dead in Christ?

This theory you propose states all Christians have to be physically dead at the Second Coming. There can be none alive. Since the claim is Paul does not make a distinction between living and dead people.

This should be called the "all are physically dead" theory.

That theory agrees with wrong eschatology, because you all have the Second Coming wrong any ways. All Christians will be dead months before Armageddon. Armageddon is not the Second Coming though. Both your theories are wrong.


Paul does make a declaration that many believers will be alive at the Second Coming. The dead in Christ have been raised and in their incorruptible bodies now in Paradise. Most do not even get the resurrection part of Paul correct. All read it the way they think it should sound good to them. If you get the resurection part wrong, you will get the Second Coming event wrong as well.

What ever happened to the fact the church is presented to God as complete and glorified as one body? No one teaches that any more.

 

[Judith]

If you'd be willing to show me where this separate "rapture" is described in His word, I'd be happy to take a look at it.
But, as far as I am aware, there are no Scriptures that declare any sort of "gap" similar to what I was taught growing up in Independent Baptist churches after I came to Christ in 1978.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 do not show it in their timeline, nor do I see it anywhere else in the Bible.
When I read those two chapters carefully, I don't see where the Lord takes any of His people out of the world until the end, at His coming again.

As I see it, the ones that are already with Him, come with Him when He comes at the end of the Tribulation;
He sends forth His angels and gathers them, according to Matthew 24 and Mark 13, from the uttermost part of Heaven.

The dead shall rise first:

" For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 )

Then the ones that are alive and remain, will join them.

They will all be changed in the twinkling of and eye, at the last trump...and according to Mark 13, from both the uttermost part of Heaven and the uttermost part of the earth...when He sends forth His angels and gathers them.

It is not that there is a separate rapture but that the timing that you put on the rapture is incorrect.

 

[Judith]

So the alive in Christ are exactly those dead in Christ?

This theory you propose states all Christians have to be physically dead at the Second Coming. There can be none alive. Since the claim is Paul does not make a distinction between living and dead people.

This should be called the "all are physically dead" theory.

That theory agrees with wrong eschatology, because you all have the Second Coming wrong any ways. All Christians will be dead months before Armageddon. Armageddon is not the Second Coming though. Both your theories are wrong.


Paul does make a declaration that many believers will be alive at the Second Coming. The dead in Christ have been raised and in their incorruptible bodies now in Paradise. Most do not even get the resurrection part of Paul correct. All read it the way they think it should sound good to them. If you get the resurection part wrong, you will get the Second Coming event wrong as well.

What ever happened to the fact the church is presented to God as complete and glorified as one body? No one teaches that any more.

I believe the biggest misunderstanding regarding the rapture is the view that the rapture is a real event that's supposed to happen in our future. As @Dave G mentioned earlier, the popular "rapture" theory was popularized by Darby in the 19th century (@1830, if I remember correctly). This view was further popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible. The rapture doctrine is so prevalent that new Christians are taught this view as if it were as undeniable as the doctrine of the Trinity. I was a Christian for nearly 30 years before I even questioned the Scriptural support for this view.

Christians often read Scripture with a bias toward what they have been taught. For instance, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is used to show this is a valid doctrine. The description that "we who are alive will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" "must" refer to the rapture, because what else could it be? Here's what else it could be - the whole passage is about the Resurrection - an entirely different topic. The idea of being caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air is a picture of God's elect being brought into His presence. For every "proof passage", there is another view for what the passage means.

Finally, let's remember that the Scriptures are inspired, but our interpretations are not. I could be wrong, but so could anyone else. We interpret the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides us, but we still disagree on what they mean. That's not necessarily bad, especially when the topic is not one that affects our salvation.

If we interpret the scriptures wrong it is not the Holy Spirit Whom is guiding us.

 

[tyndale1946]

I believe the biggest misunderstanding regarding the rapture is the view that the rapture is a real event that's supposed to happen in our future. As @Dave G mentioned earlier, the popular "rapture" theory was popularized by Darby in the 19th century (@1830, if I remember correctly). This view was further popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible. The rapture doctrine is so prevalent that new Christians are taught this view as if it were as undeniable as the doctrine of the Trinity. I was a Christian for nearly 30 years before I even questioned the Scriptural support for this view.

Christians often read Scripture with a bias toward what they have been taught. For instance, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is used to show this is a valid doctrine. The description that "we who are alive will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" "must" refer to the rapture, because what else could it be? Here's what else it could be - the whole passage is about the Resurrection - an entirely different topic. The idea of being caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air is a picture of God's elect being brought into His presence. For every "proof passage", there is another view for what the passage means.

Finally, let's remember that the Scriptures are inspired, but our interpretations are not. I could be wrong, but so could anyone else. We interpret the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides us, but we still disagree on what they mean. That's not necessarily bad, especially when the topic is not one that affects our salvation.

Well I call the rapture Protestant Purgatory and according to Brother Lodic, that rapture filtered down by Darby but Darby didn't start it... A Spanish Jesuit by the name of Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) started it in retaliation to the Protestants who looked on the pope as the Antichrist... And Baptist bought into a Catholic Doctrine, hook, line and sinker... Now I do not tell you to believe me, growing up in church I NEVER heard of the rapture and I know why... All down through history there have been antichrists and if you take the words of John this is nothing new and will always be... Anything or anyone against Christ is antichrist... In the Baptist Church I grew up in I heard preacher after preacher, preach the resurrection and one day I'm going to be caught in the air to be with the Lord (harpazo), after we are resurrected, our resurrected bodies are caught up to meet the Lord in the air... A lot of misinformation would be avoided if brethren would check these things out for themselves... And don't get me going on Harmageddon, this untruth has harmed Gods people over the years... My God is a loving merciful God, why do you serve one of vengeance?... A vengeful Father is not vengeful to his own children... Brother Glen

 

[Lodic]

So the alive in Christ are exactly those dead in Christ?

This theory you propose states all Christians have to be physically dead at the Second Coming. There can be none alive. Since the claim is Paul does not make a distinction between living and dead people.

This should be called the "all are physically dead" theory.

That theory agrees with wrong eschatology, because you all have the Second Coming wrong any ways. All Christians will be dead months before Armageddon. Armageddon is not the Second Coming though. Both your theories are wrong.


Paul does make a declaration that many believers will be alive at the Second Coming. The dead in Christ have been raised and in their incorruptible bodies now in Paradise. Most do not even get the resurrection part of Paul correct. All read it the way they think it should sound good to them. If you get the resurrection part wrong, you will get the Second Coming event wrong as well.

What ever happened to the fact the church is presented to God as complete and glorified as one body? No one teaches that any more.

From your argument, I'm not quite sure how you draw your conclusion. Allow me to elaborate a bit on my views. The rising of the dead in Christ is a resurrection of all the righteous dead, and not merely of New Testament believers, at the time of Christ’s return.

We clearly hold to different views of eschatology. I hold to the Preterist view, the belief that most of the "end times" prophesies in the Bible were fulfilled with the Jewish Wars (AD 67-70), ending with the destruction of the Temple. I definitely agree that Armageddon is not the Second Coming. I believe Armageddon is not a great "end times" battle, but a 1st century conflict between Rome and Israel. Megiddo is symbolic of war between kingdoms (compare Judges 5:19 and 2 Chronicles 35:20-25). Armageddon is a symbolic term, much like "Waterloo" is used symbolically today. The Second Coming of Christ will be without the signs that people expect.

Finally nothing has happened to the fact that the Church is presented to God complete and glorified as one body. I'm not disputing that. I appreciate your views, but I do not agree with them.