The rapture

[Lodic]

Why not just be A Mil?

Actually, I am A-Mil, as in I don't think the 1,000 years of Rev 21 is to be taken literally. I just also believe that most of the "End Times" prophecies have been fulfilled.

 

[xlsdraw]

It's the Jews that will flee when the Antichrist falsely shows himself as god and the persecution begins.

 

[xlsdraw]

The Antichrist is not going to rule from:

Rome
Brussels
London
New York
Washington
Ankara
Cairo
Tehran
Mecca
Beijing
Moscow


He shall rule from JERUSALEM

If folks could stop looking everywhere but where the scriptures identifies, they might finally get on the right track.

 

[robycop3]

If the saints are to be kept from the hour of trial, why tell them to flee to the mountains?

Because that was a different event. it was part of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews.

"World", as used in this context, refers to the Roman Empire.

Only in some people's imaginations.

If you would correctly interpret the Scriptures, or at least set your "anti-Preterist" prejudice aside, you might be able to see what should be obvious.

Obviously, preterism was invented by men & is false.

While there are plenty of man-made doctrines out there, the Partial Preterist view is accepted as an orthodox eschatological position by most Christian denominations.

JESUS HIMSELF proves the standard partial pret myth false:
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Obviouslt, those events haven't yet happened, so if the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue.

Also, notice He said "all the tribes of the EARTH", not just the tribes of Israel. That's in keeping with His later statement in Rev that every eye will see His return.

See how easy it is to prove the preterism myth false? You're smart; you should see the falsehood in it with the same ease I do. I have three encyclopediae in fronta me, & not one of them has any account of any of the eschatological events in it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, I am A-Mil, as in I don't think the 1,000 years of Rev 21 is to be taken literally. I just also believe that most of the "End Times" prophecies have been fulfilled.

What is main difference between partial Preterism and A Mil then?

 

[Yeshua1]

Because that was a different event. it was part of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews.


Only in some people's imaginations.


Obviously, preterism was invented by men & is false.



JESUS HIMSELF proves the standard partial pret myth false:
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Obviouslt, those events haven't yet happened, so if the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue.

Also, notice He said "all the tribes of the EARTH", not just the tribes of Israel. That's in keeping with His later statement in Rev that every eye will see His return.

See how easy it is to prove the preterism myth false? You're smart; you should see the falsehood in it with the same ease I do. I have three encyclopediae in fronta me, & not one of them has any account of any of the eschatological events in it.

The Greta Tribulation was NOT AD 70 and Israel, as far as I know, not a worldwide event!

 

[robycop3]

The Greta Tribulation was NOT AD 70 and Israel, as far as I know, not a worldwide event!

Haw! What a typo; Greta was my mom's name ! She woulda thought it hilarious!

 

[robycop3]

Jesus prophesied "days of vengeance " against THAT generation of Jews, holding them responsible for ALL the murders of righteous people, from Abel up to that time. The Romanj siege of J was part of that. And it certainly wasn't worldwide, nor the greatest worldwide calamity ever. Nor was it cut short; the Romans sacked J & went home in triumph, erecting an arch to Titus, which stands to this day.

 

[Alcott]

Actually, I am A-Mil, as in I don't think the 1,000 years of Rev 21 is to be taken literally. I just also believe that most of the "End Times" prophecies have been fulfilled.

Is "eternal life" to be taken literally?

 

[Lodic]

Because that was a different event. it was part of the "days of vengeance" against that generation of Jews.

To the contrary, the "days of vengeance" is the exact same event; this is the time frame for the entire Olivet Discourse. That is why Christians could escape by fleeing to the mountains.

JESUS HIMSELF proves the standard partial pret myth false:
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.".
Obviously, those events haven't yet happened, so if the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue.

To the contrary, the tribulation of those days ended in AD 70. The "cosmic language" (darkened sun, moon, falling stars) is prophetic (figurative) language. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments. See Ezekiel 5:9 and Isaiah 13:9-10 for examples of this type of prophetic language.

Also, notice He said "all the tribes of the EARTH", not just the tribes of Israel. That's in keeping with His later statement in Rev that every eye will see His return.

To discuss Rev. 1:7, "All the tribes of the Earth" is properly translated as "all the tribes of the Land" (of Israel). The will "see" could also mean "to comprehend or understand". Also, note that the "tribes" will see Him - Israel has tribes, but not the whole world. Finally, the phrase "even those who pierced Him" does not refer to a distant future generation, but could only refer to 1st Century Israel, who had Christ crucified. Incidentally, in verse 9, John refers to himself as a "fellow partaker in the tribulation". This makes it clear the tribulation was in his day, not our future.

See how easy it is to prove the preterism myth false? You're smart; you should see the falsehood in it with the same ease I do. I have three encyclopediae in fronta me, & not one of them has any account of any of the eschatological events in it.

If it was that easy to "prove" preterism to be false, why has it remained such a popular view for centuries? I do not look in encyclopedia for fulfilled prophesies, but history. It's our job to recognize when history is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. I really do recognize that you are a very learned man, and I know you have given your views a great deal of study and prayer. We clearly will not agree when it comes to the "end times" or the rapture. All the best to you, good sir.

 

[Lodic]

What is main difference between partial Preterism and A Mil then?

Disclaimer - I am no theologian As I understand them, an "amillennialist" is one who does not believe the millennium of Rev 21 to be a literal 1,000 years. Partial Preterists believe that most prophesies in the Bible (especially regarding the "end times" were fulfilled with the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. Many (most?) Partial Preterists hold the "amillennial" view, but not everyone who holds the A-Mil view believes in any form of Preterism. Clear as mud???

 

[Lodic]

Is "eternal life" to be taken literally?

Yes. Why do you ask? I'm not sure I see any co-relation between this and my view of eschatology.

 

[Yeshua1]

Disclaimer - I am no theologian As I understand them, an "amillennialist" is one who does not believe the millennium of Rev 21 to be a literal 1,000 years. Partial Preterists believe that most prophesies in the Bible (especially regarding the "end times" were fulfilled with the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. Many (most?) Partial Preterists hold the "amillennial" view, but not everyone who holds the A-Mil view believes in any form of Preterism. Clear as mud???

Think RC Sproul moved to that view before his death....

 

[Lodic]

Think RC Sproul moved to that view before his death....

I believe you are correct. Sproul wrote "The Last Days According to Jesus", where he discusses the Partial Preterist view. I highly recommend this, and could easily name several more.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe you are correct. Sproul wrote "The Last Days According to Jesus", where he discusses the Partial Preterist view. I highly recommend this, and could easily name several more.

I tend to see the Prophets though in a more literal fashion, and that the Messianic Age has not yet arrived, as that will be like Paradise restored!

 

[Alcott]

Yes. Why do you ask? I'm not sure I see any co-relation between this and my view of eschatology.

Because that's a major part of eschatology-- the result thereof, or the final part, as far as we know. But if some parts are not literal, any may not be.

 

[Lodic]

I tend to see the Prophets though in a more literal fashion, and that the Messianic Age has not yet arrived, as that will be like Paradise restored!

By "Messianic Age", I take it you mean the reign of Christ. That being the case, Paradise would be restored indeed.

 

[Lodic]

Because that's a major part of eschatology-- the result thereof, or the final part, as far as we know. But if some parts are not literal, any may not be.

All Christians believe in a literal eternal life. Many Christians do not believe in a literal millennium. I don't see any problems or conflicts. A lot of Revelation is written in symbolic language. For that matter, a lot of prophecies in general use symbolic language.

 

[robycop3]

To the contrary, the "days of vengeance" is the exact same event; this is the time frame for the entire Olivet Discourse. That is why Christians could escape by fleeing to the mountains.

No, it isn't. First, there were some 8 months between the Roman sieges, while Jesus urged a speedy escape from the coming event. And we see His prophecy about the days of vengeance was directed mainly against the Jews in Jerusalem, although almost all Jews in the empire were affected at least some.

To the contrary, the tribulation of those days ended in AD 70.

Oh, REALLY? Then, WHERE'S JESUS?????
Remember, He said He'd return IMMEDIATELY after the trib ended!

The "cosmic language" (darkened sun, moon, falling stars) is prophetic (figurative) language. Heavenly bodies often symbolize earthly rulers and governments. See Ezekiel 5:9 and Isaiah 13:9-10 for examples of this type of prophetic language.

Typical pret tactic. having NO evidence to support their assertions, prets often reduce Scripture to "figurative/symbolic" status while having no license nor valid reason to do so, and/or make up new meanings for certain Scriptures. That hippo won't fly!
(Cont. next post, for brevity)

 

[robycop3]

(Cont. from post # 59)
Lodic:

To discuss Rev. 1:7, "All the tribes of the Earth" is properly translated as "all the tribes of the Land" (of Israel). The will "see" could also mean "to comprehend or understand". Also, note that the "tribes" will see Him - Israel has tribes, but not the whole world. Finally, the phrase "even those who pierced Him" does not refer to a distant future generation, but could only refer to 1st Century Israel, who had Christ crucified.

Your prob-JESUS DID NOT RETURN THEN! And those who pierced Him are long-dead. But they will see His return from hades, as will the whole living population of the earth. If man-made satellite TV can show the Super Bowl to the whole world as it happens, how much more can JESUS do to cause all to see His return, alive or dead, from anywhere?

Incidentally, in verse 9, John refers to himself as a "fellow partaker in the tribulation". This makes it clear the tribulation was in his day, not our future.

That's not the GREAT trib. There's tribulation all over the world right now, including the pandemic. But the GREAT trib will be the worst set of catastrophes to heve ever, or will ever, hit the whole world. SO SAID JESUS! I believe HIM over any of those pret quax. Remember, Jesus said that if the trib wasn't cut short, NO FLESH (sark, man or animal flesh) would survive. There have been MUCH-GREATER tribs than thew destruction of J & the temple; for example, WW2.

If it was that easy to "prove" preterism to be false, why has it remained such a popular view for centuries?

Because of people's ignorance, just as there are over a billion Moslems, & 2 billion members of other false religions. People just don't take time to study history, instead, just taking some quack demagogue's word for it.

I do not look in encyclopedia for fulfilled prophesies, but history. It's our job to recognize when history is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

Encyclopediae ARE history boox! But they're not my only source of knowledge of history. For instance, I learned much from the late Dr. Thomas Cassidy, who was an administrator here. And the prophesied eschatological events simply HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET! With all due respect, Sir, you can't show me any differently. I have carefully read Jewish, Roman, & 3rd-party accounts of the siege & destruction of Jerusalem, & the plagues of the great trib simply didn't happen then!

I really do recognize that you are a very learned man, and I know you have given your views a great deal of study and prayer. We clearly will not agree when it comes to the "end times" or the rapture. All the best to you, good sir.

You seem to be an erudite person yourself; that's why I can't figure out how you can believe something so obviously false & phony as the pret schtick. It's all man-made & false. Scripture says the events WILL happen, & I 110% believe they will. But they simply haven't happened yet.

If they have, please tell us who the antichrist was. Please tell us who his sidekick, the false prophet was. Please tell us when the sun scorched men with fire, such as from a solar flare, etc. Please tell us when Jerusalem was split into 3 parts by an earthquake since Jesus was here. plwase tell us when every mountain & island was moved from its place. And that's just a short list of "Please tell us...".

And, back to the theme of this thread, the raprure hasn't yet occurred, but it will when it's about time for the antichrist to implement the marka the beast.

But, most of all, if you're a partial pret, please tell us WHEN JESUS RETURNED & WAS SEEN BY ALL, as He said He'd be !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!