The rapture

[timtofly]

If the saints are to be kept from the hour of trial, why tell them to flee to the mountains?

"World", as used in this context, refers to the Roman Empire.

If you would correctly interpret the Scriptures, or at least set your "anti-Preterist" prejudice aside, you might be able to see what should be obvious.

While there are plenty of man-made doctrines out there, the Partial Preterist view is accepted as an orthodox eschatological position by most Christian denominations.

Because the Second Coming did not happen in the 1st century. Fleeing to the hills from the Romans was the only thing history records as a fulfillment. Using Scripture to say anything else is a private interpretation phenomenon, that started from the false assumption, Christ had returned. The return of Christ was never documented any where, so still a future event.

The Great Great Great, tribulation has been going on for 1990 years. It is the length of expected trouble on earth. The greatest troubles will be after the Second Coming when God on the throne, and the Lamb are literally on the earth. They are the ones Satan comes against. Satan can only prevail, because the church failed prior to the Second Coming in gathering a harvest. Just like the vineyard was taken away from a failed Jewish stewardship, the vineyard will either be taken away from the church as a failure, or the church will have a full harvest to present to the Lord of the vineyard. Today is the day the church is facing the same question of the Lord of the vineyard coming and asking for an accounting, like the 1st century stewards.

So the church has been given 1990 years of stewardship. The house of Jacob only had 1400 years. That the church cannot even agree on Spirit led insight is very telling. How can 100 different views on the same Second Coming be all from God?

That is the reason Satan will ever be allowed to have 42 months AFTER the church. And most posters today expect to be in Satan's 42 months of control. How can they be both in the church and serve Satan at the same time? Do they not understand that when the time is up, it is up? The time is up when God comes, and that is not at the end of Satan's time. God is here to collect the harvest before Satan gets any chance of control. Those waiting for an AC are not waiting for God, and will be too late at that point.

 

[timtofly]

All Christians believe in a literal eternal life. Many Christians do not believe in a literal millennium. I don't see any problems or conflicts. A lot of Revelation is written in symbolic language. For that matter, a lot of prophecies in general use symbolic language.

Your post is a symbolic form of your thoughts. Yet people like amil would not think your post is literal, and can be interpreted whatever makes sense at the moment. Except most amil positions will never make sense at any moment, literally.

BTW, not being judgmental. Just literally observing the facts of so called figurative excuses, on black and white text, that since they are God's Word, not open to 1000's of interpretations.

 

[robycop3]

Because the Second Coming did not happen in the 1st century. Fleeing to the hills from the Romans was the only thing history records as a fulfillment. Using Scripture to say anything else is a private interpretation phenomenon, that started from the false assumption, Christ had returned. The return of Christ was never documented any where, so still a future event.

The Great Great Great, tribulation has been going on for 1990 years. It is the length of expected trouble on earth. The greatest troubles will be after the Second Coming when God on the throne, and the Lamb are literally on the earth. They are the ones Satan comes against. Satan can only prevail, because the church failed prior to the Second Coming in gathering a harvest. Just like the vineyard was taken away from a failed Jewish stewardship, the vineyard will either be taken away from the church as a failure, or the church will have a full harvest to present to the Lord of the vineyard. Today is the day the church is facing the same question of the Lord of the vineyard coming and asking for an accounting, like the 1st century stewards.

So the church has been given 1990 years of stewardship. The house of Jacob only had 1400 years. That the church cannot even agree on Spirit led insight is very telling. How can 100 different views on the same Second Coming be all from God?

That is the reason Satan will ever be allowed to have 42 months AFTER the church. And most posters today expect to be in Satan's 42 months of control. How can they be both in the church and serve Satan at the same time? Do they not understand that when the time is up, it is up? The time is up when God comes, and that is not at the end of Satan's time. God is here to collect the harvest before Satan gets any chance of control. Those waiting for an AC are not waiting for God, and will be too late at that point.

Actually, the great trib hasn't started yet. It won't last the full 3.5 years, as jesus will cut it short lest all flesh perish. many of its events are mentioned in Revelation. They'll be LITERAL, not figurative.

 

[timtofly]

Actually, the great trib hasn't started yet. It won't last the full 3.5 years, as jesus will cut it short lest all flesh perish. many of its events are mentioned in Revelation. They'll be LITERAL, not figurative.

The term great is a generational time stamp. "Great grandparents." The great tribulation is thus the last 1990 years, since the Cross.

The time of unprecedented tribulation is when the Lord of the vineyard is doing His earthly ministry. The first 3.5 years was from His baptism to the Cross. The second half will not be 3.5 years, and is getting shorter each second prior to the Second Coming.

The 7th Trumpet is in April of 2023. That is the completion of the Second Coming.

 

[robycop3]

The term great is a generational time stamp. "Great grandparents." The great tribulation is thus the last 1990 years, since the Cross.

The time of unprecedented tribulation is when the Lord of the vineyard is doing His earthly ministry. The first 3.5 years was from His baptism to the Cross. The second half will not be 3.5 years, and is getting shorter each second prior to the Second Coming.

The 7th Trumpet is in April of 2023. That is the completion of the Second Coming.

Where do you get such silly notions?

The seals, trumps, & bowls will all be part of the great trib within a less-than 3.5 year period after the antichrist comes to power.

 

[timtofly]

Where do you get such silly notions?

The seals, trumps, & bowls will all be part of the great trib within a less-than 3.5 year period after the antichrist comes to power.

Because you are not rightly dividing Revelation. You cannot lump them all together and no one ever mentions the Thunders that will certainly happen prior to the 7th Trumpet. There is not one single period of time mentioned as a time reference for the Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders.

There is a time reference of 42 months allowed to Satan. The vials are the wrath of God on Satan and his worshippers at the end of the 42 months. We can know that the 7th Trumpet is the start of Satan's control, and it ends exactly 42 months from the second it starts.

Thus all the Trumpets and Thunders take place while God and the Lamb are on the earth. This is the time of unprecedented trouble. Every single inhabitant on earth will understand this time. Revelation 6:15-17

15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

This is the Second Coming. God on the throne and the Lamb will be present on earth and no human will be in the dark. This is the only connection that John gives in accord with the Olivet Discourse. This happens prior to the Trumpets. The Seals have been overlooked, because no one accepts that God sent Covid19 into the world as the 1st Seal.

Either some put Revelation into the whole of church history, thus no definition, or like John the Baptist, Christ will show up one day to get baptized and no one was prepared then either.

God never told any one the time of the Second Coming, thus John and God wrote it so it would take many, if not all by surprise. Many have an opinion on the Seals. What I post will just be set apart as a private opinion like John baptized privately in the Jordan.

 

[Alcott]

All Christians believe in a literal eternal life. Many Christians do not believe in a literal millennium. I don't see any problems or conflicts. A lot of Revelation is written in symbolic language. For that matter, a lot of prophecies in general use symbolic language.

True. But there is no system, per se, prescribed by scripture to determine literal or figurative. One I heard of otherwise was that if a prophetic description is plain and possible, then it means just that; but if it is impossible in our existence-- like a dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, or bones rising up and being reincarnated with flesh-- then it is symbolic. But that can be problematic in some cases, such as in Daniel where a goat comes out of the west-- that certainly is possible, but we are told it means a conqueror will come.

It can't be pick-and-choose, but it's not always possible to know literal or symbolic.

 

[Yeshua1]

By "Messianic Age", I take it you mean the reign of Christ. That being the case, Paradise would be restored indeed.

Reigning here upon the earth!

 

[robycop3]

Because you are not rightly dividing Revelation. You cannot lump them all together and no one ever mentions the Thunders that will certainly happen prior to the 7th Trumpet. There is not one single period of time mentioned as a time reference for the Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders.

Your whole premise is based upon conjecture & guesswork, not FACTS. You're just GUESSING what the thunders said, as God told John to seal'em up, & nowhere are their words revealed. But I don't believe they're prophecies, as God had said He does nothing without first revealing it to His prophets. And prophets were always told to make God's prophecies known.

There is a time reference of 42 months allowed to Satan.

No; that was the time allotted to the BEAST after his deadly head wound will be healed.

The vials are the wrath of God on Satan and his worshippers at the end of the 42 months. We can know that the 7th Trumpet is the start of Satan's control, and it ends exactly 42 months from the second it starts.

No; the bowls (or vials if you prefer;I don't use the KJV) will be the culmination of the great trib, which will get progressively worse once it begins. Jesus said it'd be as labor pains, which normally grow stronger & closer together til the actual birth.

Thus all the Trumpets and Thunders take place while God and the Lamb are on the earth. This is the time of unprecedented trouble. Every single inhabitant on earth will understand this time. Revelation 6:15-17

No; they occur before Jesus returns.

15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

This is the Second Coming. God on the throne and the Lamb will be present on earth and no human will be in the dark. This is the only connection that John gives in accord with the Olivet Discourse. This happens prior to the Trumpets. The Seals have been overlooked, because no one accepts that God sent Covid19 into the world as the 1st Seal.

No; this'll be just before He stops the trib lest all flesh should perish. After a very short hiatus, Jesus will then return.

Either some put Revelation into the whole of church history, thus no definition, or like John the Baptist, Christ will show up one day to get baptized and no one was prepared then either.

The prophetic events of the Rev will start when the antichrist takes power, with the rapture occurring shortly before then, or shortly after, before he makes the marka the beast mandatory.

God never told any one the time of the Second Coming, thus John and God wrote it so it would take many, if not all by surprise. Many have an opinion on the Seals. What I post will just be set apart as a private opinion like John baptized privately in the Jordan.

That's cuz it IS a private opinion which doesn't agree with Scripture or history, & consists mainly of GUESSWORK.

 

[Lodic]

(Cont. from post # 59)
Lodic:

Your prob-JESUS DID NOT RETURN THEN! And those who pierced Him are long-dead. But they will see His return from hades, as will the whole living population of the earth. If man-made satellite TV can show the Super Bowl to the whole world as it happens, how much more can JESUS do to cause all to see His return, alive or dead, from anywhere?


That's not the GREAT trib. There's tribulation all over the world right now, including the pandemic. But the GREAT trib will be the worst set of catastrophes to heve ever, or will ever, hit the whole world. SO SAID JESUS! I believe HIM over any of those pret quax. Remember, Jesus said that if the trib wasn't cut short, NO FLESH (sark, man or animal flesh) would survive. There have been MUCH-GREATER tribs than thew destruction of J & the temple; for example, WW2.



Because of people's ignorance, just as there are over a billion Moslems, & 2 billion members of other false religions. People just don't take time to study history, instead, just taking some quack demagogue's word for it.


Encyclopediae ARE history boox! But they're not my only source of knowledge of history. For instance, I learned much from the late Dr. Thomas Cassidy, who was an administrator here. And the prophesied eschatological events simply HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET! With all due respect, Sir, you can't show me any differently. I have carefully read Jewish, Roman, & 3rd-party accounts of the siege & destruction of Jerusalem, & the plagues of the great trib simply didn't happen then!



You seem to be an erudite person yourself; that's why I can't figure out how you can believe something so obviously false & phony as the pret schtick. It's all man-made & false. Scripture says the events WILL happen, & I 110% believe they will. But they simply haven't happened yet.

If they have, please tell us who the antichrist was. Please tell us who his sidekick, the false prophet was. Please tell us when the sun scorched men with fire, such as from a solar flare, etc. Please tell us when Jerusalem was split into 3 parts by an earthquake since Jesus was here. plwase tell us when every mountain & island was moved from its place. And that's just a short list of "Please tell us...".

And, back to the theme of this thread, the raprure hasn't yet occurred, but it will when it's about time for the antichrist to implement the marka the beast.

But, most of all, if you're a partial pret, please tell us WHEN JESUS RETURNED & WAS SEEN BY ALL, as He said He'd be !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roby, I am on the road for the next few days, and I am just using my phone for a brief reply. Your detailed responses deserve more than I can give until I return home, and I didn't want you to think I had forgotten you.

 

[Lodic]

Reigning here upon the earth!

Technically, Scripture doesn't specify where He will reign from. However, that would be my guess.

 

[Lodic]

Your post is a symbolic form of your thoughts. Yet people like amil would not think your post is literal, and can be interpreted whatever makes sense at the moment. Except most amil positions will never make sense at any moment, literally.

BTW, not being judgmental. Just literally observing the facts of so called figurative excuses, on black and white text, that since they are God's Word, not open to 1000's of interpretations.

FYI - A personal issue came up suddenly, so I am going to be on the road for the next few days. Just wanted to give you a quick reply so you wouldn't think I have ignored you. I plan to answer your comments when I return home. Take care.

 

[Lodic]

True. But there is no system, per se, prescribed by scripture to determine literal or figurative. One I heard of otherwise was that if a prophetic description is plain and possible, then it means just that; but if it is impossible in our existence-- like a dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, or bones rising up and being reincarnated with flesh-- then it is symbolic. But that can be problematic in some cases, such as in Daniel where a goat comes out of the west-- that certainly is possible, but we are told it means a conqueror will come.

It can't be pick-and-choose, but it's not always possible to know literal or symbolic.

Generally, the Scriptures themselves give us guidance. As we know, the Bible contains several different types of literature - historic narrative, poetry, didactic, etc. Prophetic literature is often written in symbolic language. The sun, moon and stars often represent rulers. When the author tells us that he is describing a vision, we should take him at his word - this is not literal.

I am on the road for the next few days, so I probably won't be able to reply to any responses until I return home.

 

[robycop3]

Generally, the Scriptures themselves give us guidance. As we know, the Bible contains several different types of literature - historic narrative, poetry, didactic, etc. Prophetic literature is often written in symbolic language. The sun, moon and stars often represent rulers. When the author tells us that he is describing a vision, we should take him at his word - this is not literal.

I am on the road for the next few days, so I probably won't be able to reply to any responses until I return home.

Roby, I am on the road for the next few days, and I am just using my phone for a brief reply. Your detailed responses deserve more than I can give until I return home, and I didn't want you to think I had forgotten you.

OK, Sir. I hope God guides you & empowers you through whatever your situation is.

 

[Alcott]

I am on the road for the next few days, so I probably won't be able to reply to any responses until I return home.

I approve of this message.

 

[timtofly]

Your whole premise is based upon conjecture & guesswork, not FACTS. You're just GUESSING what the thunders said, as God told John to seal'em up, & nowhere are their words revealed. But I don't believe they're prophecies, as God had said He does nothing without first revealing it to His prophets. And prophets were always told to make God's prophecies known.


No; that was the time allotted to the BEAST after his deadly head wound will be healed.


No; the bowls (or vials if you prefer;I don't use the KJV) will be the culmination of the great trib, which will get progressively worse once it begins. Jesus said it'd be as labor pains, which normally grow stronger & closer together til the actual birth.


No; they occur before Jesus returns.


No; this'll be just before He stops the trib lest all flesh should perish. After a very short hiatus, Jesus will then return.


The prophetic events of the Rev will start when the antichrist takes power, with the rapture occurring shortly before then, or shortly after, before he makes the marka the beast mandatory.



That's cuz it IS a private opinion which doesn't agree with Scripture or history, & consists mainly of GUESSWORK.

I certainly will not take credit for it.

As for Satan's 42 months it is found in chapter 12 two times: 1260 days and time, times, and half a time. Then confirmed in chapter 13:

5 It was given a mouth speaking arrogant blasphemies; and it was given authority to act for forty-two months.

Time, times and half a time is 3.5 years. This is not the GT, or great tribulation, nor time of unprecedented tribulation. It is the time of Satan's anger, or wrath as the result of the 7th Trumpet, ie third woe. It is Satan and his angels cast out of heaven for the second and final time. They have 42 months of full authority. That is why Jesus, as you state it, "shortly returns". Jesus wraps up Satan's and all who worship him, troublesome time, at the battle of Armageddon, where the last of Adam's flesh is destroyed.

Why would Jesus leave with the 144k and leave the church on earth? The church had been removed as Stewards when God on the throne and the Lamb come. They have to come once, to be able to "shortly return layer".

Why do you think the rapture "works" at all? The church is no longer necessary. The church's time is up. Matthew 25, states Jesus Christ is going to be live and in person for the final harvest, separating the sheep from the goats.

This all takes place after the great tribulation known as the church age, and during the Trumpets, an unprecedented time of trouble. The church age is extended (for sake of the elect), and the Time of the Trumpets and Thunders is shortened. The shorter time is shrinking between the Second Coming and the days of the 7th Trumpet. The church age is not shortened, because that is God's Grace being extended.

The only time being limited or made smaller is the time of the Trumpets and Thunders to allow more time for the church to bring in a final harvest, before God and the Lamb, and Satan get a hold of those left on earth. There is no set in stone 3.5 years of unprecedented trouble. That time keeps getting shorter. That prophecy is literally taking place as we post.

The only set time is Satan's 42 months of authority, if they happen at all. If the church keeps "expecting" an AC and Satan, instead of revival, what is going to be born? If the church expects revival, 2 Chronicles 7 is key. The church is currently in Solomon's position except instead of a Temple, The 1000 year reign of Christ is about to happen. What is to be done has to be now.

 

[robycop3]

Well, ACTUALLY, the 3.5 years is what's allotted to the antichrist's empire, which will include virtually the whole world one way or another. I believe he will take power in stages. First there'll be a 10-nation confederacy, which he will take over by uprooting the rulers of 3 of its members, with the others becoming his vassals, while retaining nominal rulership of their own nations. They'll then begin bringing other nations under their rule, much as Russia did, by veiled threats, & in a few cases, direct military intervention. None will be able to stand against him. He shall prevail against what saints will be left. But his empire won't last more than 3.5 years.

During that time, he will make the marka the beast mandatory for one to be able to conduct business, ceclaring himself to be God & demanding that he & his statue in the temple be worshipped, killing anyone who refuses to worship him. And shortly after he declares himself God, the trib will begin. I believe his declaring himself God, which will be the "abomination of desolation", will be the beginning of the final 3.5 years of the age. However, Jesus said it'd be cut short, lest all flesh should perish. He will end the trib & return immediately afterward, as He said.

The rapture will occur shortly before the antichrist takes full command, while the world still loves him insteada fearing him. He will give an explanation for the disappearance of millions, that his followers, that is, mosta the world, will believe. His only opposition during this time will be the 144K Israelis & the 2 special witnesses, along with those who believe the Gospel & come to Jesus during this time. But they will not prevail against the antichrist. He will rule til Jesus returns & casts him & his sidekick, the false prophet, alive, directly into the lake of fire, without passing "Go!" or collecting $200.

 

[timtofly]

Well, ACTUALLY, the 3.5 years is what's allotted to the antichrist's empire, which will include virtually the whole world one way or another. I believe he will take power in stages. First there'll be a 10-nation confederacy, which he will take over by uprooting the rulers of 3 of its members, with the others becoming his vassals, while retaining nominal rulership of their own nations. They'll then begin bringing other nations under their rule, much as Russia did, by veiled threats, & in a few cases, direct military intervention. None will be able to stand against him. He shall prevail against what saints will be left. But his empire won't last more than 3.5 years.

During that time, he will make the marka the beast mandatory for one to be able to conduct business, ceclaring himself to be God & demanding that he & his statue in the temple be worshipped, killing anyone who refuses to worship him. And shortly after he declares himself God, the trib will begin. I believe his declaring himself God, which will be the "abomination of desolation", will be the beginning of the final 3.5 years of the age. However, Jesus said it'd be cut short, lest all flesh should perish. He will end the trib & return immediately afterward, as He said.

The rapture will occur shortly before the antichrist takes full command, while the world still loves him insteada fearing him. He will give an explanation for the disappearance of millions, that his followers, that is, mosta the world, will believe. His only opposition during this time will be the 144K Israelis & the 2 special witnesses, along with those who believe the Gospel & come to Jesus during this time. But they will not prevail against the antichrist. He will rule til Jesus returns & casts him & his sidekick, the false prophet, alive, directly into the lake of fire, without passing "Go!" or collecting $200.

The 144k are only where the Lamb is. The Lamb is on the earth while the 144k are part of the gathering of the harvest. The church is gone during the ministry of the 144k. Then the 144k and the Lamb are gone during the ministry of the two witnesses.

How is getting one's head cut off even equated to accepting Christ? Getting one's head cut off is the only means of remaining in the Lamb's book of life, but their resurection is the bodily resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4. It is better than being in the Lake of Fire, but it is not accepting Christ and becoming part of the glorified church. The church is sealed and completed at the 6th Seal. There is no more joining the church by faith after that point. There is not even joining the church at that point.

20 The rest of mankind, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then did not turn from what they had made with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk.
21 Nor did they turn from their murdering, their involvement with the occult and with drugs, their sexual immorality or their stealing.

 

[robycop3]

The 144k are only where the Lamb is. The Lamb is on the earth while the 144k are part of the gathering of the harvest. The church is gone during the ministry of the 144k. Then the 144k and the Lamb are gone during the ministry of the two witnesses.

How is getting one's head cut off even equated to accepting Christ? Getting one's head cut off is the only means of remaining in the Lamb's book of life, but their resurection is the bodily resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4. It is better than being in the Lake of Fire, but it is not accepting Christ and becoming part of the glorified church. The church is sealed and completed at the 6th Seal. There is no more joining the church by faith after that point. There is not even joining the church at that point.

20 The rest of mankind, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then did not turn from what they had made with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk.
21 Nor did they turn from their murdering, their involvement with the occult and with drugs, their sexual immorality or their stealing.

The Church will already be gone, removed in the rapture, before the marka the beast in implemented, or the trib begins. Try reading & believing Scripture. The seals, trumps, & bowls will be used during the trib. The 144K will be sealed before the full fury of the trib breax forth.

 

[Lodic]

(Cont. from post # 59)
Lodic:

Your prob-JESUS DID NOT RETURN THEN! And those who pierced Him are long-dead. But they will see His return from hades, as will the whole living population of the earth. If man-made satellite TV can show the Super Bowl to the whole world as it happens, how much more can JESUS do to cause all to see His return, alive or dead, from anywhere?


That's not the GREAT trib. There's tribulation all over the world right now, including the pandemic. But the GREAT trib will be the worst set of catastrophes to heve ever, or will ever, hit the whole world. SO SAID JESUS! I believe HIM over any of those pret quax. Remember, Jesus said that if the trib wasn't cut short, NO FLESH (sark, man or animal flesh) would survive. There have been MUCH-GREATER tribs than thew destruction of J & the temple; for example, WW2.



Because of people's ignorance, just as there are over a billion Moslems, & 2 billion members of other false religions. People just don't take time to study history, instead, just taking some quack demagogue's word for it.


Encyclopediae ARE history boox! But they're not my only source of knowledge of history. For instance, I learned much from the late Dr. Thomas Cassidy, who was an administrator here. And the prophesied eschatological events simply HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET! With all due respect, Sir, you can't show me any differently. I have carefully read Jewish, Roman, & 3rd-party accounts of the siege & destruction of Jerusalem, & the plagues of the great trib simply didn't happen then!



You seem to be an erudite person yourself; that's why I can't figure out how you can believe something so obviously false & phony as the pret schtick. It's all man-made & false. Scripture says the events WILL happen, & I 110% believe they will. But they simply haven't happened yet.

If they have, please tell us who the antichrist was. Please tell us who his sidekick, the false prophet was. Please tell us when the sun scorched men with fire, such as from a solar flare, etc. Please tell us when Jerusalem was split into 3 parts by an earthquake since Jesus was here. plwase tell us when every mountain & island was moved from its place. And that's just a short list of "Please tell us...".

And, back to the theme of this thread, the raprure hasn't yet occurred, but it will when it's about time for the antichrist to implement the marka the beast.

But, most of all, if you're a partial pret, please tell us WHEN JESUS RETURNED & WAS SEEN BY ALL, as He said He'd be !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi, Roby. I'm finally back home. Thank you for your patience.

Yes, there were several months between the sieges. That merely provided the opportunity for the Jewish Believers to escape the “Days of Vengeance”. Audience relevance is very important here. Jesus told His audience “when you” see these the things that He described. He didn’t say “when they see these things”, or “when the people living at that time see these things”.

Actually, Jesus did not say He would return immediately after the tribulation. In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus tells us “the sign of the Son of Man will appear”. He described a darkened sun, moon, etc. Heavenly bodies symbolize earthly rulers and governments in many places. The scriptural references I provided are proof that prophesies frequently utilize symbolism. Using the principle of interpretating scripture with scripture, it’s perfectly logical to believe He is using symbolic language. Consider the language of Acts 2:17-21, which quoted the prophet Joel. The sun did not literally turn dark nor did the moon literally turn into blood on the Day of Pentecost. Just as you refer to my arguments as “pret tactics”, I could just as easily refer to your arguments as “anti-pret tactics” or “futurist” tactics where you figure the meaning that you apply to these prophetic passages is the only possible explanation. We agree there can only be one true interpretation, but both our views have logical arguments.

The 2nd Coming did not occur in Revelation 1:7, but Jesus “came” in judgement of Israel. In Matthew 26:64, Jesus told Caiaphas “I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of Heaven” . Coming on the clouds” refers to God coming in judgement (e.g. Isaiah 19:1, Jeremiah 4:13-14, Nahum 1:2-6)

The Beast was Rome (personified in Nero), and the False Prophet was Apostate Israel. While "futurists" often accuse Peterists of not interpreting the prophesies literally, futurists see a literal fulfillment of the 7 Trumpets of Rev 8 (1/3 of the earth burned up, burning mountains thrown into the sea, a great star falling), but a symbolic fulfillment of Rev 11:1-8. The irony here is that Jerusalem's location is specifically identified as "where their Lord was crucified" and symbolism is applied to Jerusalem as the city "which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt".

Since you returned to the theme of this thread, I shall do likewise. The rapture hasn't happened yet because it never will. While you believe Preterism to be a man-made doctrine, I believe the rapture to be a man-made doctrine.