THE RAPTURE

Dr. Bob said:

Who are coming "with Him" at the rapture?

I Thess. 4: 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Perhaps because "when" these things were to happen is the clearest outline of all.

Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

Charles Meadows: "My biggest complaint with the premill dispy scheme today is the rapture. I find it wholely unscriptural."

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate)
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur
cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic
semper cum Domino erimus

'Rapiemur' is the proper form here of the Latin word
from which we get our English word 'rapture'.

Mosat of us are more familiar with the KJV1611:

1 Th 4:17 (KJV1611 edityion):
Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.

1. 'Rapture' is in the Bible, the Latin Vulgate.

2. What do you think 'rapture' means so that you can
"find it wholely unscriptural"?

3. What do you think 'caught up' means?

 

Rapturholics have taken over...Tim Lehaye
is offically a billionaire now!

the way its taught these days its like a cop
out of the christian in his or her smugness
will not suffer because.."they got the rapture
insurance policy"

It really has taken on a life of its own

and Tim Lehaye uses that bible to make him

another 100 million.

Rapture! Fear! oh dear! let me buy that book

I don't want to suffer! whew! no problem

I'm gonna get raptured! now where is my

game boy!

 

Charles Meadows: "And if this refers to a pretrib "rapture" then why does it say that we shall forever be with the Lord? What about the judgment? What about the millenium?"

It says we shall 'forever be with the Lord' becasue we
shall forever be with the Lord. The Lord will judge
(BTW there may be more than one judgement where we
are with the Lord so your questions should really be "what
about the judgements?" During the physical
Millennial Kingdom of Our Blessed Lord Jesus we shall
be with the Lord. Always after the pretibulation
rapture/resurrection we shall be with the Lord, as the
Bible says.

Charles Meadows: "I see the binding of Satan as having occurred with the Death and Resurrection of Christ and extending until the second coming."

IMHO your opinion is not the reporting of anything reasonable.
A reading of part of any daily newspaper says Satan is not
bound in any reasonable sense. The Binding of Satan is a future
event.

 

Charles Meadows: "If the rapture such an important eschatological event (and it IS in the premill dispy scheme) then why is it not spelled out clearly anywhere."

I don't know why God chose not to do that. I do hope
for the pretribulation rapture/resurrect. Hope does not need
seven spell-outs.

Charles Meadows: "Is there ANY place in scripture where we clearly see a sudden catching away of all Christians, followed by a judgment, followed by a millenium on earth, followed by another judgment, followed by punishment of the wicked forever, followed by heaven? "

No. In fact, I don't even believe that is the sequence
of events.

Here are three of my pretribulation rapture proofs:

---------------------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

Charles Meadows: "And what about the early church? Why do we first hear of the "rapture" only in the 1800s with Darby and Moody Institute?"

SOrry, Brother Charles MEadows. I like you also. But all
my proofs are from the New Testament. None of my proofs
about the pretribulation rapture/resurrection are
from the early church fathers my proofs are from the New
Testament. None of my proofs about the pretribulation rapture/resurrection are from Darby. I don't even know where
to get stuff from Moody Institute. Your arguments must be
directed at others. I don't use the sources you cite.
Please discuss the New Testament with me. Thank you.

 

I've been a Christian for 53 years.
I've been Saved long enough to realise that
your question is a poor one. Here is a better
quesiton to ask:

If the Lord comes tomorrow morning to get
you and the rest of us, will you be ready?

 

Hi Charles Meadows. Pardon the chiming here. This is a very confusing subject in this thread that Mcgyver began, and the different views continue. Having read none of your posts outside of this thread I notice you, pardon me if I’m wrong, may possibly doubt the word of Paul. I also see you pull from many sources. I in my younger days did this, but became confused as I started to believe some of the stuff that did not agree with His Word. Please don’t misunderstand as there is much out there that is acceptable and compatible to His Word, but there are myriads more that is not. They are not all bad, but they get in the way as we study to make our selves approved.

If we believe the word of Paul, then we that believe in some dispensations of not many, and some perhaps one or two more, must choose pre-millenniumism. The reason for this is that we or free of the “covenants” that pertain to the nation of Israel, and are free to fully explore the gospel of Paul, which is that of Christ Jesus from heaven, for the Gentile, and also the Jew. We do not find this “grace” gospel of today in prophecy and the law, or even after the kingdom of God was preached with the coming of John the Baptist. However, this does not mean we do not understand prophecy. It’s just that today we are not living in it.

There are those of the covenant that believe in Pretrib, as well as PostMil, Amil,Preterist, and no telling what. Surely this will not affect our being in Christ Jesus, but can affect our reward/s. It is my understanding that a great many of Covenant believers lean toward or accept the Amillennial. You are in some good company here. But alas, that Amillennial view just will not hold up to close scrutiny, as with the other views.

The reason of my conjecture above of belief in the Epistles of Paul is that the Israelology of covenant Amillennialism concerns the belief in a Covenant of Grace as we live today. This Grace that we live in today, is not the grace that will come to those of the Covenant. I am a Gentile, and God never asked me to make a covenant with Him, but today through Christ Jesus, God the Father is saving us by His grace. Nobody, but nobody knew anything about this until Damascus Road. Paul is the only Apostle I have, and he says Christ revealed to him a dispensational Gospel, and I believe him. If not then God is not now reconciling a lost world unto himself.

I believe every Word of God, which is the Bible, therefore I also believe Peter in his second book toward the end of chapter three that says it is a good idea for the Jew to believe Paul. Christ told Paul to go to the Gentile, and the Jew, and Peter says the Jew had better believe Him, and Paul says I a Gentile had better believe him (Paul); therefore everybody on this earth should believe his gospel, and in that gospel contains new information of our being caught up to Christ in the air. So as Christ gave Paul this information I will believe the Head of the Church that I am in.

I hope I’m wrong about thinking you may not believe the chiefest sinner, Paul, saved by the Grace of God, through believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christian faith,ituttut.

 

Digging out my notes one more time.

16 Proofs for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (See "Who will populate the millennium?" Bible Study).

 

You can get my goat, but you can't touch my HOPE with your
doubt about rapture. The rapture is called
the gathering in 2 Thess2:1, the blessed hope in
Titus 2:13, the gathering in Matthew 24:31,
the caught up in 1 Thess 4:17. After the
'caught up' in 1 Thess 4:17 we are told
in 4:18 to encourage one another with this.
But still assert NOT. Sorry, my Hope and
the Hope of millions of our fellow Baptists
is NOT for sale at so cheap a price as to fall
in your noisy and doubtfull assertation.
Better find some scripture to cover your assertation. Telling us what the terms in
the scriptures above mean might would help.

 

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.