THE RAPTURE

Originally posted by Archeryaddict:

16 Proofs for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[refuted]

Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

[Rev. 19:11-21 is in context with Rev. 19:1-10 and Rev. 20:1-6. And what do we discover? Praise coming from heaven and rejoicing that the "wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready." The rapture takes place here, after the tribulation, as the bride has now made herself ready! The next event reported is the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-20). Then Rev. 20:1-6 records the binding of Satan and fills in more details concerning the First Resurrection, the resurrection of the saints who did not worship the beast, the martyred saints who were beheaded, etc. These are the saints of the rapture, the believing dead. Verse 5 states that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. That's why those who are part of the first resurrection (which takes place at Christ's second coming) are blessed and holy. They also are priest of God and Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So Rev. 19-21 does mention a resurrection, the resurrection that takes place at Christ's second coming which describes the rapture of believing saints who will reign with Christ during the thousdand years.]


Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

[Zechariah 14:1-15 is a description of the Battle of Armageddon. The same as Rev. 19:11-21.
But the context of this battle goes back to chapter 12, where verse three records that all the nations of the earth are gathered against Jerusalem. There is no mention of a resurrection, because the event recorded in Zechariah 12-14 is the battle of Armageddon, which takes place immediately after the wedding of the Lamb (Rev. 19). All the saints of all the ages have already been raptured. The Israel that remains, and the Gentiles that remain are all unbelievers. But when Christ appears to fight for Jerusalem (12:9), the unsaved Israelites will look on Christ, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him and grieve bitterly (12:101-14). Imagine their shock when they discover that Jesus really is their Messiah, and they crucified him! Zechariah 13:8 then reveals that 2/3 of the Israelites will be struck down, but 1/3 will be left in the land to enter the millenium in unglorifed bodies, yet converted to their Messiah (v. 9). The unbelieving survivors of the nations will also go into the millennium in unglorified bodies to be ruled over by Christ (14:16).

There is no mention of a resurrection because Zechariah 12-14 isn't dealing with believing saints, it is dealing with the unbelievers (Jew and Gentile) who have not been raptured at Christ's second coming. The focus is Armageddon!]



Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

[There certainly are two events that take place at Christ's second coming: first the rapture of all of the saints (both OT and NT) in the air; and then the continued return to earth to destroy the armies of the nations. You have failed to site any Scripture references that require a seven year gap between these two events. The Second Coming of Christ consists of raising the dead and living saints to himself and his continued descent to earth to destroy the armies of the nations that are attacking Jerusalem. Your proof supports a post-trib ratpure.]

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

[The day of Christ's return is unknown because no one is going to be able to precisely date the middle of the tribulation period. But Jesus did say that his return could be expected and anticipated. Matthew 24:32-35 informs us that when we see all these things taking place, we can know that it is near, right at the door! What we can't know, however, is the exact day or hour (v. 36). Therefore, Jesus is describing his second coming in terms of not being able to know the exact day or hour, but still being able to recognize that his second coming is near, right at the door.]

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

[It is quite a stretch, and you appear to admit it, that John's call into heaven is equated with the rapture of the church. The tenor of Rev. 2-3 is that Christ's church must overcome the tribulation and trials that are to come upon the earth as they await the return of Christ. Rev. 4:1 is specific to the Apostle John and specifies why he is to come up here, namely to be shown what must take place after this. The bride motiff is used throughout the NT to describe God's people. The church, as the believing remnant of Israel and believing Gentiles, is referred to as the Bride of Christ. It is this bride that makes herself ready in Rev. 19:1-10, after the tribulation period is over! We don't have to speculate or read into the text of Rev. 4:1 because Rev. 19:7 tells us when the wedding takes place!]

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

[The church is mentioned in chapters 2 and 3 because God is revealing to John what is going to take place on earth. The church is going to be persecuted, among other things, and is to remain faithful and overcome the trials. Jesus' prayer is not that the church be removed from this world, but that it be protected from the evil one (John 17:15).

The church isn't mentioned after chapter 4 because the focus has changed from the earth to heaven: 4:2 in heaven; 7:9 standing before the throne; 8:1 silence in heaven; 11:15 loud voices in heaven; 12:1 sign appeared in heaven; 14:2 sound from heaven; 15:1 I saw in heaven; 16:1 from the temple; 18:1 another angel coming down from heaven; 19:1 heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven; 20:1 angel coming down from heaven; 21:1 a new heaven and a new earth; 22:1 from the throne of God. These are just some of the numerous references to John's heavenly visions. The focus is now in the heavens!

The church isn't mentioned because it is on earth! Meanwhile, John is experiencing heavenly visions of things to come. If the church were raptured at 4:1, we should expect the church to be mentioned, especially at all of the throne scenes! But it isn't, except for references to departed saints from every tribe and language and people and nation (5:9, 7:9, 8:3). The dead saints are at the throne of God, but the living members of the church is still on earth awaiting the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation period.]

Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

[2 Tim. 4:8 teaches that the crown of righteousness is awarded on "that day" to those who have longed for his appearing. His appearing is his second coming. This verse, taken by itself does not prove that his appearing is the rapture separated by a gap of seven years before he returns to earth in blazing fire with his angels (2 Thess. 1:7). In fact, 2 Thess. 1:7 proves that relief from persecution for the church takes place when Christ appears at the end of the tribulation! His second coming is visible, with fire, and with his angels. Only a post-trib rapture fits the context found in 2 Thess. 1:7. 1 Peter 5:4 also does not teach a pre-trib rapture in and of itself. 2 Thess. 1:7 states when this appearing occurs, and it occurs at the end of the tribulation.

The crowns of gold on the 24 elders heads are not identified as the crowns that believers receive when Christ appears. These crowns are mentioned because these 24 elders sit on thones that surround THE throne. These are rulers, and the crowns represent that they are rulers, and yet they receive their power to rule from the one who sits on THE throne and they lay their crowns before THE THRONE (vv. 4, 10).]

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

[Where do departed saints go to await the culmination of God's plan? Heaven! The holy ones of Zechariah 14:5 are the OT saints who now dwell in heaven. Christ as his resurrection led the OT saints who were in Paradise to heaven (Eph. 4:8). Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Departed saints from all of the ages are now in heaven.
Col. 3:4 is teaching that we will appear with Christ in glory when he appears. It is not teaching that we will be raptured and in the heavens prior to the tribulation. Neither does Rev. 19:4 teach that the church is already in the heavens before the tribulation. It speaks of the 24 elders who are in heaven worshiping God. This is where they should be if they have already died.]


Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

[The hour of testing is not the whole seven year tribulation period. No where does the text state this. If the text states "hour," we should look for something else in the text that we can connect this phrase to. Is there another place in Revelation where "hour" is mentioned? There is. Revelation 17:12. Ten kings will receive authority as kings for one hour. They will give their power to the antichrist (v. 13) who for one hour will have full and complete authority on earth. It is at this time that Babylon, the city that rules over the kings of the earth, is destroyed by the antichrist. It is at this moment in time that the people of God are told to come out of her (Babylon)(18:4).

This is just one interpretation.

In any event, John 17:15 is clear concerning the prayer of Jesus for his church. Rev. 3:10 uses the same Greek word as John 17:15b. "Keep you from" the evil one and "keep you from" the hour of trial, which is contrasted to "take them out." Whatever Rev. 3:10 is referring to, it is not referring to "taking them out" or "lifting them out." It is instead a reference to God preserving his people from the trials and tribulations that will come upon his followers.]

Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

[Matthew 22:30 is irrelevant to the discussion. That is a reference to not marrying in the after life. We will be like the angels. We won't marry at the resurrection.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the second coming of Christ explained in the words of Christ to his disciples. Jesus returns, the nations mourn, the elect are gathered. This is in complete agreement with 1 Thess. 4:17.

No where does the text state that the gathering of the elect and wicked is not a resurrection. Your argument is one from silence and cannot be sustained from the rest of the Scriptural evidence. The elect are gathered, both the living and dead, at the end of the tribulation period when Christ returns (1 Thess. 4:13-17). The wicked have no part in this first resurrection (Rev. 20:5). The second resurrection at the end of the thousdand years will be to judge and condemn the wicked.

If the day of the Lord begins with the first resurrection and ends with the second resurrection, then the coming of Christ will truly be a time of rewarding his saints and punishing the wicked. At his second coming, Christ will be glorifed in his people (2 Thess. 1:6-10), many non-believers will be destroyed - both Jews and Gentiles, and the survivors will enter the millennium, of which many will rebel at the end of the thousand years when Satan is loosed. The final judgment of the unbelieving dead will take place at the end of the thousand years at the great white throne judgement - the second resurrection.

The first resurrection applies to believers, living and dead. The second resurrection applies to non-believers.]

Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

[The point of Matthew 13:30-49 is not detailed eschatology, but rather, the nature of the kingdom of heaven. In the kingdom of heaven, there will be both believers and non-believers. If you try to rid the kingdom of non-believers (weeds), you may, in the process, harm the wheat. Therefore, let them both grow. God will take care of the weeds in due time.

These parables are used to teach a general principle that God will sort out the wicked from the righteous; the bad fish from the good; the weeds from the wheat. During the thousand year reign of Christ, the wicked will be on earth just like today. At the end of the thousand years, God will sort out the wicked and destroy them. Those who remain will enter into the new heaven and new earth for all eternity.

Again, Matthew 13 is a series of parables teaching that the wicked will be destroyed in due time.]

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

[Completely consistent with a post-trib rapture, but not a pre-trib rapture. The bride makes herself ready after the tribulation (Rev. 19:1-10). A pre-trib rapture has the bride snatched away seven years before she is ready. That leaves the groom standing at the altar for a long time! No, the text clearly says that the bride is ready after the tribulation and there is great excitement in heaven that the wedding is about to proceed.]

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

[John 14:2-3 doesn't say that Jesus is coming back to take us to heaven. Jesus said:

In my Father's house are many rooms.
I am going there to prepare a place for you.
I will come back and take you to be with me.
That you also may be where I am.

The comfort of these verses is: that if I die for Christ's sake, he has a room for me in his Father's house. The context is Peter's future betrayal. Jesus wants him to trust him instead. Jesus is going there to prepare a place for all who believe in him. Death cannot separate us from Jesus. Wherever he is, that's where we will be when we die.

The key is verse three. I promise you a dwelling place with me! If this is true, I will come back for you and take you to be with me "that you may be where I am." When Christ returns to earth and the saints are raptured, we will be where he is, on earth ruling with Christ.]

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

[The text doesn't say the restainer is the church. The most likely "restrainer" would be Michael the archangel, the same one who now disputes with Satan and restrains evil forces (Dan. 10:12-14, 20, 12:1). Clearly, Michael is the one who restrains evil and who, when "letting go" allows distress such as has not happened from the beginning of the nations until then.]

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

[This separation is the natural effect of the rapture at the Second Coming. The sheep are raptured, the goats are left to be judged and await their sentence.]

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (See "Who will populate the millennium?" Bible Study).

[See response to proof 2. Not all of the wicked will be cast into hell at that time. The survivors of the nations enter the millennium to be ruled over by Christ with an iron scepter.]

Sixteen proofs for a pre-trib rapture snatched away by proper exegesis of the text of Scripture.

This took a long time, so I hope you will enjoy this.

 

Hey Charles, thanks for your reply. Hang in there until we can get you moved. If not then Christ has you placed and firmly set in your pew up there. I have moved from faith to faith, within His grace. Some things I held dear and contended for, for so many years, have now been made much plainer to me by Him, as I found quite a few contradictions. I asked Him to do His will in explaining the contradictions. They turned out to be no contradictions after all. So I believe He has moved me to another part of His Body. Please notice I am not saying all PreM's hold the same beliefs as I.

It takes everyone of us, and one of these days His Church will be filled to the brim, and we will be “snatched up” and then those left will really be praying the prayer of the disciples, “Our Father…………...”. The Father will then be listening to His people in their prayer for the kingdom to come. We in the kingdom of Christ will be there to meet them in the kingdom of God. Then the 12 Apostles in their kingdom will judge earthly Israel. We are destined to go with Christ wherever He may choose to go in eternity.

Reply to your “I do understand the millenial position (historic premillenialism) but I reject as UNSCRIPTURAL the rapturist position.” I can understand your position, as you say from historic premillennialism. I at one time believed from this position in Him, but a few doubts here and there.

I am a Baptist believing from a dispensational view, thus premillennialism cannot be denied. From your covenant stance, you tend to see (correct me if I’m wrong) God saving all the same way from the beginning of the Old Testament, i.e., when the nation Israel departed Egypt, and which has always been grace by faith. The Testament, or covenant did not become old until the Cross. Then if not the same from the beginning of the nation, you do believe a dispensational gospel, viz. one before the Cross and one afterwards. Even this I believe is still a covenant gospel, with an historical view.

Paul informs all things are now New, but not in prophecy. Prophecy is not over, and I cannot find that we are in prophecy. We are in this secret time of grace through faith, which is not as the grace that will be shown to the covenant people that was prophesied.

 

I forgot whom: "Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection."

Paul33: "So Rev. 19-21 does mention a resurrection, ..."

After mentioning apples and then oranges, can we make
some fruit salad?

Paul33: " [There certainly are two events that take place at Christ's second coming: first the rapture of all of the saints (both OT and NT) in the air; and then the continued return to earth to destroy the armies of the nations. You have failed to site any Scripture references that require a seven year gap between these two events. "

Interesting non sequitur.
I'll use a scripture you quoted: Revelation 20:4

Rev 20:4 (KJV1611 edition) /formatted so the KAIs are the start of each line/:

And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
& I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they liued
and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

Now the Greek KAI is usually the English (and) but can also be
nor, or, or most any other connector.
But more than that, KAI can be:

1. the connector of two equal sets (i.e. sets with the same members)
2. the connector of two similiar sets
3. the connector of two mutually exclusive sets
5. the connector of a set and it's subset
5. a substitute in Greek for later English outlines

what is the "&" (Greek KAI) that sepeates the thrones from the souls?

IMHO it is #3 - a connector of two mutually exclusive sets.
They who set upon the thrones were those raptured/resurrected
at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection. The souls were those
killed during the Tribulation period who are resurrected at the
coming of the Lord to destroy the antichrist and his works.

Others may have other opinions. (Though my track reacord is that
most a-mills are:

1. snowed by my explanation
2. choose to ignore my question

I know for sure, i've not had an answer yet. Do you agree
about the options for the Greek KAI? Which is the best choise
and which scripture in the Bible do you base that choice on?

 

So you definition of 'exegesis' must be

EXEGESIS - explanation, critical analysis, or interpertation of a Bible passage by Paul33

Thank you for spending your time sharing your
opinions, opinions are always interesting.

 

Ed,

You are so out of it, you're almost in!

 

I know all about the Greek KAI cause i drive a S.Korean KIA

 

I have repeatedly asked for one verse of Scripture that shows a pre trib rapture. So far no one has been kind enough to respond.

 

There isn't one!

 

Well to tell the truth I was getting a little suspicious myself.

 

I feel so sad when i kill a thread by
wanting to discuss. Anybody else have
a better understanding of KAI?

Even the Dollar Bill in your pocket is
saying pretribulation rapture - before
it says bye-bye

Matthew 24:3 (The Latin Vulgate)
sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto dicentes dic nobis quando haec erunt et quod signum adventus tui et consummationis saeculi
The Holman Christian Standard Bible

Matthew 24:3 (HCSB= Holman Christian Standard Bible)

While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?

Mat 24:3 (KJV1611):

And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be? And what shall be the signe of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Back of the $1 bill [/b]NOVUS ORDO SECLORIUM[/b]

Consider the slogan: NOVUS ORDO SECLORIUM: usually translated 'new order for the ages"

NOVUS - Latin word from which we get 'new'

ORDO - Latin word from which we get 'order'

SECLORIUM - latin word from which we get 'secular' (not religions, of the world) also means "age" .

So Novus Ordo Seclorium can indeed mean 'new order for the ages"

But Novus Ordo Seclorium and also mean: 'new order for the world' or 'new world order'.

 

That is a false statement. I have been kind enought to do so. These verses were totally disregarded without comment by yourself and your statement above has been redundantly proffered several times since then.


I am an adherent to Pauline dispensationalism (Eph.1, 3, Col.1, 1 Cor.9), which teaches the FACT that the mystery of the gathering of the BODY OF CHRIST (1 Cor.12,15/1 Thess.4)is a gathering BEFORE THE WRATH TO COME (1 Thess.1,5, Matt.3,24, Luke 3, 21), identified by Paul as the day of the Lord. We ESCAPE that TIME which is the tribulation/great tribulation/affliction/days of vengeance/wrath (Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21) that comes on Jerusalem (the time of Jacob's trouble, Jer.30) at the MIDST of Daniel's week, IDENTIFIED by the Lord Jesus Christ through Daniel. (Dan.9,11,12) Our gathering (2 Thess.2:1) is on the day of Christ which is connected to the REVELATION of the man of sin (verse 3), which occurs at the MIDST of Daniel's week.

No problem for this BIBLICAL dispensationalist to give you the verses for the fact of a PRETRIB gathering.

 

Carl,

Please give us the SPECIFIC verse which supports pretrib rapture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Hey guys, i write requirements for software. You don't get
anything in the software businees but commercial off the shelf (COTS)
items and WHAT YOU SPECIFY and test out.

1 John 4:1 (KJMV1611 edition):
Beloued, beleeue not euery spirit, but trie the spirits,
whether they are of God: because many false prophets
are gone out into the world.

Sorry, but i must call NOT OF GOD on the mantra to provide a verse.
Until you are in the spirt to receive the verse, we can obviously
not provide it. Furthermore, you will not study the verses that i
bring, discuss them, you dis Ed or Ed's major thesis.

My major thesis is: My Jesus is going to come get me and take
me to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation 7-year-day.
To this i have many subpoints. Largely those subpoints have been
uncontested. Therefore everytime you yell "one and only one verse"
you are further promoting the fact that i won this debate.
TO this then, i owe a debt of grattitude.

Now, does anybody want to go to a specific KAI and compare our meanings.
Most the differentation between our eschatologies is in the meaning
of KAI in specific situations. But maybe nobody wants to debate with
THE ED? AH HA, presistance pays off way over correctly spelled words

 

That is a false statement. I have been kind enought to do so. These verses were totally disregarded without comment by yourself and your statement above has been redundantly proffered several times since then.


I am an adherent to Pauline dispensationalism (Eph.1, 3, Col.1, 1 Cor.9), which teaches the FACT that the mystery of the gathering of the BODY OF CHRIST (1 Cor.12,15/1 Thess.4)is a gathering BEFORE THE WRATH TO COME (1 Thess.1,5, Matt.3,24, Luke 3, 21), identified by Paul as the day of the Lord. We ESCAPE that TIME which is the tribulation/great tribulation/affliction/days of vengeance/wrath (Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21) that comes on Jerusalem (the time of Jacob's trouble, Jer.30) at the MIDST of Daniel's week, IDENTIFIED by the Lord Jesus Christ through Daniel. (Dan.9,11,12) Our gathering (2 Thess.2:1) is on the day of Christ which is connected to the REVELATION of the man of sin (verse 3), which occurs at the MIDST of Daniel's week.

No problem for this BIBLICAL dispensationalist to give you the verses for the fact of a PRETRIB gathering. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother carlaimpinge -- Preach it!

(Of course, Jesus will show up before the
first half of Daniel's 70th week ON TIME
not 3-1/2 years late. But at least that is
before the heavy Trib starts: God's wrath
undiluted.

 

Ed & Carl,

Please give us the SPECIFIC verse saying pretrib rapture, please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed Edwards says:
The rapture is called
the gathering in 2 Thess2:1, the blessed hope in
Titus 2:13, the gathering in Matthew 24:31,
the caught up in 1 Thess 4:17. After the
'caught up' in 1 Thess 4:17

Here Now asks:
How does anyone get "Rapture" from this?

 

Ed,

Many pretribbers as members of BB would not agree with you that you saying the gathering of Matt. 24:31 is rapture.

I agree with you, Matt. 24:31 is speak of rapture. How can you prove that Matt 24:31 shall be occur before tribulation??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

For anyone who is in doubt of the "rapture" there is a good book called "The Rapture Exposed" by Barbara R. Rossing. She is a New Testament Scholar.
She gives you reasons for not believing in the Rapture.

Sincerely,
Here Now

 

This is only the down payment (not the payoff):

Ed Edwards says:
//The rapture is called
the gathering in 2 Thess2:1, the blessed hope in
Titus 2:13, the gathering in Matthew 24:31,
the caught up in 1 Thess 4:17. After the
'caught up' in 1 Thess 4:17 //

Here Now asks:
//How does anyone get "Rapture" from this?//

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate)
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur
cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic
semper cum Domino erimus

'Rapiemur' is the proper form here of the Latin word
from which we get our English word 'rapture'.

Most of us are more familiar with the KJV1611:

1 Th 4:17 (KJV1611 edityion):
Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.

But this is the only place in the Bible where "caught up" is
used.

What Rapture means here in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is that
we Christians are "caught up" with the Lord Jesus and
taken to be where the Lord is at (usually heaven, but there
are prophecies that indicate a physcial Jesus will
rule over a physical earth from a physical throne of David
and from a physical Jerusalem for a physical 1,000 years
(the term '1,000 years' could be illustrative of A LONG TIME,
but the time period will be physical not just spiritual) )

The other terms i think are also the rapture are used in the
Bible, but what do they mean?

I Believe there are two seperate events related to the Second Coming
of Jesus carefully situated 7-years apart: the coming of our Lord
Jesus to get us and the coming of our Lord Jesus to destroy the Antichist
and set up a physical 1,000 year kingdom on earth.
(some people say the two events take place in the same 48-hour-day,
others the same 8-hour work day, others the same 24-hour day.)