THE RAPTURE

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "So, my question is, does Paul saying that we shall follow Christ enter into the THIRD heaven when after we meet Christ in the 'air'?? //

Don't think so. John does that.

I've spent years boiling down what the Bible says about
eschatology. Now you want me to reproduce the whole
process for you. Can you get the idea not every facet
of every future event is prophecied in every verse?

Jesus said in John 14:1-3 (KJV1611 edition)

Let not your heart be troubled: yee beleeue in God, beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would haue told you: I goe to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I goe and prepare a place for you, I will come againe, and receiue you vnto my selfe, that where I am, there ye may be also.

Please note this DOES NOT SAY that velcro will hold your shoes on.
But velcro will hold your shoes on (and you don't have to tie
anything )
Please note this does not say THIRD HEAVEN.
If Jesus goes to Vagas, we will be going with Him.
BUT the Jewish wedding ceremony imagery here says very loud,
in all caps, with green bolding:

Jesus will take us home to be with the Father.
We know (not from here, from elsewhere) that the Father
resides specifically in the THRID HEAVEN.

If God has more truth than he can put in one verse, don't
try to tempt God to do it

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I have no problem with the context of 2 Peter chapter 3.

The context of chapter 3 talking about the last day scoffers ask, 'Where is the promise of His COMING?'. They have been hear old story or message saying that Jesus is coming again through many years, they do not believe in the second coming. In other word, they would saying, 'Jesus will never, never come again, his promise is vain and lied.

Also, through many past caneturies, people were expecting Lord might come anytime in their lifetime, but all of them already died.

People think 1,000 years seem so very long time to their sight.

But, in the Lord's sight is much different than our sight and thoughts. In God's sight 1,000 years is toooooooooooo short time for him like AS one day.

Peter's point of 'thief in the night' at the day of the Lord. That Lord's comign shall be very quickly and without expect. Just same as flood came and took all people away without any expect. So, likewise shall be at Lord's coming. His coming shall be like as thief in the night, when Christ shall come again, He shall send his angels to grab all unbelievers away so suddenly without any expect, that's called, 'thief in the night', for the purpose is to send unbelievers to the everlasting fire at the judgement day(Matt. 13:39-42; Matt. 25:31-33,46; and 2 Thess. 1:7-9.

Apostle Peter tells us of 1 Peter 3:14, that we must be blamless and be ready, walk godly daily, not know when Christ shall come again according Rev. 3:2-3.

Apostle Paul tells us, that we must be blameless at the coming of the Lord, why? Because we all shall face the judgement seta of Christ to judge us.

We must be always ready and watch all the times, not know when Christ shall come, we shall not be ashamed at His coming as thief in the night.

Thief in the night is at the second coming for to judge the world. At the same time, this old planet earth shall be burned away. SO, we are eager look for new heavens and a new earth shall be created by followed at Lord's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Pretribbers always cited John 14:1-3 for the 'proof' of pretrib doctrine.

I have a question for you. Does Jesus saying He shall come again BEFORE tribulation of John 14:1-3?

in Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Also,

I have NO problem with John 14:1-3. I love this passage is a BEAUTIFUL promise passage for us. Christ promises us, that we shall dwell in our Father's house - New Jerusalem, if we doubt what he saying, He SHALL COME AGAIN TO RECEIVE US WHERE HE IS.

And, 2 Peter. 3:10-13 teach us very clear, this old planet earth shall be burned immediatedly at the day of the Lord cometh. SO.... Lord shall recreate new heavens and a new earth, then, He shall send New Jerusalem down from the heaven to a new earth and we shall dwell in it according to Revelation chapter 21.

New Jerusalem shall be revealed and descend from the heaven immediatedly right after the great white throne follow at Christ's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
OldRegular: "Now obviously if Peter is talking to Christians they will be on earth when the Lord returns to bring all these thing to pass on the Last Day."

Amen, Brother OldRegular -- preach it!
This will happen before the Tribulation on the last day of the
church age.

Ed Edwards

I was trying to be polite calling you Mister but I won't do it any more; call you Mister that is.

Are you wresting Scripture again? By the way that was the 1769 KJV so perhaps a little wresting is permissible.

My concern is: Where are the people going to be during the 7 year Grrreat TRRibulation and the 1000 year earthly reign of David and Jesus Christ? Peter tells us But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Perhaps the GRRReat TRRibulation is really going to last 1007 years and people will be running around trying to find a cool place to stand. Sounds almost as bad as the tribulation of the early Christians when Nero coated them with pitch and then used them as torches for his night time parties.

Wresting Scripture defined according to pretribbers [Is that name acceptable Ed Edwards?]:

The Last Day is not the last day, or is it the last day is not the Last Day! [John 6:39, 40, 44, 54]

The Last Trumpet is not the last trumpet, or is it the last trumpet is not the Last Trumpet! [1 Corinthians 15:50-52; Revelation 11:15-19; ]

The hour is not the hour, or is it the hour is not the hour! [John 5:28, 29]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Consider the timeline God gave me from
some 50 years of studying the scripture:

Ed Edwards, did God speak to you in an audible voice?

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Consider then 2 Peter 3:10
(i don't know which version cause some parties who
call me Mr Ed /i don't like it/ don't always remember to put the
version in their post)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

My God given outline does not conflict with this statement
nor does this statement conflict with the outline.

The outline in Peter's terms:

0. /not mentioned, but the saying is for the chruch age folk/
1. "as a thief in the night"
2. "the day of the Lord"s wrath
3. "the day of the Lord"s return
4. ";"
5. "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Hello! this is prophecy.
Peter sumarized future events.
sumarization is a retorical technique.
Is anybody realy surprised when a retorical technique
is used in a prophecy?

[/b]

I thought that dispensationalists insisted that Scripture, particularly prophecy, is to be interpreted literally not rhetorically. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes [page 147], “Consistent literalism is at the heart of dispensationalism eschatology.” However, the understanding of just what the literal method of interpretation apparently varies greatly among dispensationalists.

In discussing the dispensationalist insistence on the literal interpretation of Scripture, John P. Newport in The Lion and The Lamb, writes [page 96]: “This is particularly the case when interpreting biblical references to Israel. The term Israel must always refer to the actual nation Israel, ethnic Israel, the Israel that traces its physical descent back to Jacob. God called Jacob Israel. The term never refers to ‘spiritual Israel.’ All prophetic Scripture is to be treated in a similar manner. All prophecy must be fulfilled literally and in detail.”

But we can interpret Peter's prophecy rhetorically, therefore, let us interpret Revelation 20:1-6 rhetorically.

 

[Ed Edwards]

OldRegular: "The Last Day is not the last day, or is it the
last day is not the Last Day!"

some people don't know the first thing about FIRST nor the
first thing about LAST. There can be more than one LAST.
Every May people have their last day of school.
Each individual can have their last day each year.
I went to school before kindergarden was common.
I have 11 last days of school before the LAST last day
of high school.
So if one wants to study the scriptures they need to figure
out the last day of what for whom.

Mr. Ed is a horse. To Which part of the horse shall i compare whom?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Actually, no excuse for you to understand what 'last day' means.

Even, Second Grade student understands the last day of school shall be tomorrow, then the next day after the last day of school past, then there will be NO MORE class again for the rest of summer.

Ed,

You seems smart talks. You saying, last day always be repeat every year to year repeat.

Stop and think.....


Shall the cursed of the world to be continued forever and ever? I mean shall the wicked of this world to be continued for forever and ever? Do you think God shall allow evil or wicked to be continued in this world forever and ever????

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by here now:
Ed Edwards says:
The rapture is called
the gathering in 2 Thess2:1, the blessed hope in
Titus 2:13, the gathering in Matthew 24:31,
the caught up in 1 Thess 4:17. After the
'caught up' in 1 Thess 4:17

Here Now asks:
How does anyone get "Rapture" from this?

Well since rapture is the transliteration of a Latin word [pretribbers using something Roman, amazing!!!!!] perhaps you have to be able to read Latin!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
OldRegular: Mr. Ed is a horse. To Which part of the horse shall i compare whom?

My name isn't Ed Edwards!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Originally posted by OldRegular:
[qb] I have repeatedly asked for one verse of Scripture that shows a pre trib rapture. So far no one has been kind enough to respond.

I stand by the above statement.


There it is in all of it's glory. The consistent evasion, blatant disregard, and NULLITY OF NON-RESPONSE to any of the verses which were posted concerning the subject.

There were STATEMENTS with PROOFTEXTS placed beside them. All you have to do is BE ABLE to read what is written.

Such people cannot be dealt with.

Typical.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Adios, amigos.

 

[Paul33]

It wasn't a personal attack. Moderators who overstep their boundaries may unfortunately give the wrong appearance.

I believe my statement had to do with the grammatical-historical hermeneutic that Ed would espouse and how many times he fails to follow it.

How is that an attack? The whole issue of dispensationalism rises or falls on the historical-grammatical hermeneutic.

Dr. Bob, you made the statement that I condemned Ed. I never did. Where's the grace and comportment in that? It would appear that you are over-reacting.

One might wonder why you don't snip yourself? Your comments appear to be far more offensive and off target than anything I have posted.

 

[Paul33]

Ed,

A teacher teaches first grade for one year. She then teaches for 49 more years.

Does she have 50 years of experience or 1 year of experience repeated 50 times?

What some call a "good study" is nothing more than excessive dispensationalism "rightly dividing" the word of God until it resembles whatever one wants it to resemble.

 

[OldRegular]

Paul33

I believe the word "splintered" more aptly applies to pretribbers rather than "rightly divide" which is a Biblical term.

 

[Ed Edwards]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

I'm waiting for that departure, the rapture.
Seven other Bibles prior to the KJV had
a form of departing or departure here.
OBTH, they were all prior to Darby in 1830

 

[Paul33]

The falling away of 2 Thess. 2:3 is the "apostasia" that will take place in the last days.

Ed, you lose all credibility when you try to force the Greek "apostasia" to mean the rapture.

Arguement over.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I have repeatedly asked for one verse of Scripture that shows a pre trib rapture. So far no one has been kind enough to respond.

I stand by the above statement.

This entire question could be settled if those of the pretrib persuasion would simply read the following prophecy by the Apostle Peter and then heed his advice at the end of the prophecy.

Hi Old Regular. I feel you are reading the wrong Apostle for the Christian. His name is Paul, and He says He has a dispensational gospel. He is my Apostle, at least that is what Christ told Him from Heaven. Peter and the other Apostle’s will have their own kingdom and will judge Israel of the earth. Christian’s will not have to go through the tribulation to reach the kingdom of God. We are all ready in the Body of Christ, in His kingdom, which is in the kingdom of God.

Peter preached to those of His day (and will be used in the tribulation) water baptism was necessary (Acts 2:37-38). This was before that gospel was phased out. James, Peter and the rest shook hands with Paul, and the others, and said they (the kingdom church) would go to the circumcised. God never gave any of the other Apostles the authority to preach at or to a Gentile, with the one exception when God sent Peter to Cornelius, in which is plainly shown, God would not allow Peter to add “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”.

No uncircumcised has ever been associated with the Holy Spirit in this manner. We see in Acts where God stopped Peter in mid sentence. When Peter said in Acts 10:43, ”that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins”, they received the Holy Ghost. No Gentile ever made a covenant with God for God never asked us to. Oh how we Gentiles should love the Jew. If not for them we would never have been in the Temple.

To see premillennialism I think we have to slip in on that first row and listen real good to Paul. Christ gave our one heavenly Apostle a dispensational gospel. At least that is what Paul says in his gospel in Ephesians 3. I actually believe this guy. He tells us we will be caught up. This makes more sense as we go on. We see he gets a little exasperated with the Thessalonians, as they are not paying attention, and are easily swayed. I believe it was Mr. Barnum that said “there’s a sucker born every minute”. There were quite a few in that church.

We will be caught up, and what a comfort that will be. I don’t know but should the rapture come today, is it possible for those that don’t believe in the rapture to go through the tribulation, and inherit the earth with Israel? If so the Word says the uncircumcised with be licking the dust of their masters (Jews) sandals, for as the Jew will be servants of God, the Gentiles will be the servants of the Jew.

Of course, we Baptist of the Christian faith, of which I’m sure you are, will be in heaven away from all the commotion down here when it begins.

Oh, by the way in your II Peter reference to Paul. In Galatians 1:6-9 Paul says it is a good idea for Christians to believe what he says, and Peter says the Jew had better believe what Paul says. I believe Paul wrote Hebrews, for I believe Peter makes reference to that. Peter, James, and Hebrews are three books for the tribulation folk. Christian faith, ituttut.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Ed,

A teacher teaches first grade for one year. She then teaches for 49 more years.

Does she have 50 years of experience or 1 year of experience repeated 50 times?

What some call a "good study" is nothing more than excessive dispensationalism "rightly dividing" the word of God until it resembles whatever one wants it to resemble.

One, two, three, four, five W's, with How as we go step-by-step, precept-by-precept.

On that ladder to heaven, if rungs are missing, especially when we are trying to get off the ground, it’s possible we may not get high enough to see that panoramic view we can have when we correctly divide the Word of our God of division.

We can do this, but only when we can see the dispensations of God. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[DeafPosttrib]

ituttut,

Peter, James, and Hebrews are three books for the tribulation folks

.

No. Not always. All of these books are speak to us as Christians throughout all ages from Calvary to the end of the world, that these are given warnings with instruction and conditional salvation.

Where did you get the idea come from that you saying Peter, James, and Hebrews are apply for 'tribulation folks'?

Acts 10:43 tells us, that we must believe on Jesus Christ, and shall have forgiven of sins, just same as Abraham believed in Christ, he was already counted into righteousness (Romans 4:3; Gal. 3:6). God's plan of salvation never change since from the creation to the end of the world. Our salvation always go by through the faith only, not of works, just same as Abel have faith in Christ(read Hebrews chapter 11-'Hall of faith'). All O.T. saints and N.T. saints have faith in Christ, both are on the same boat of salvation according Gal. 3:26.

You still not yet 'prove' a clear verse saying that we shall be rapture before tribulation.

OldRegular and I both are still waiting for anyone to prove a verse saying rapture shall be occur before tribulation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: " ... conditional salvation. ...
God's plan of salvation never change since from the creation to the end of the world. Our salvation always go by through the faith only, not of works, ... "

Uh, what is 'conditional salvation'? Be sure to define it so
that your other statements are true.

Has the plan of un-salvation also been the same through all the ages?

And amen on Our salvation is by works.

DeafPosttrib: "You still not yet 'prove' a clear verse saying that we shall be rapture before tribulation."

Those who know what 'prove' means
understand the old adage: "There is none so blind has he who
WILL NOT see. It is impossible to 'prove' HOPE. That does not
mean that God is NOT the author of hope, only that man's logic
cannot 'prove' hope. Pretribualtion rapture is a Biblically based hope.