THE RAPTURE

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

 

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

Matthew 24:31-44 (and similar passages in Mark 13, and Luke 21)
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory
to defeat the antichrist and set up the
millinnial kingdom):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

-------------------------------------------
But, of course, there is no verse saying: "Jesus
is going to come get you before the Tribualation Day
and come 'get' the antichrist on another day."

 

Romans 8:19
Rom 8:18 For I reckon, that the sufferings of this present
time, are not worthy to be compared with the glory
which shall be reuealed in vs=.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature,
waiteth for the manifestation of the sonnes of God.

The coming of Lord Jesus will be a time of joy for the Christains
a time of dispair for the unsaved. This seems indicative to
me of the seperatness of these two events (though i admit some
might have an argument the two events happen the same
12 hours of sunlight day). My earnest expectation is that
Jesus is going to come back and get me (others may think
of it that Jesus is going to come get them). My earnest
expectation has nothing to do with coming of Jesus to whomp the
antichrist. The 'earnest expectation' is the rapture/resurrection,
not the Second Coming in power and glory.

Of course, there is no verse saying "Jesus is
going to come take you home, Ed."

 

Ed,

I will reply back to you on your comparing of Rapture & Second Coming - tomorrow.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The Rapture Exposed
subtitle: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation
by Barbara R. Rossing.

http://www.campusi.com/isbn_0813391563.htm

Here is a short Synopsis (bolding is by ed):

//An accomplished scholar and ordained minister boldly debunks the Left Behind series and makes the case for reclaiming Christianity from the destructive "rapture" interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
The idea of "The Rapture"--thereturn of Christ to snatch born-again Christians off the earth--is an extremely popular interpretation of the Book of Revelation in the Bible and a jumping-off point for the best-selling Left Behind series of books. However, mostChristian churches and biblical scholars condemn rapture theology as a distortion of Christian faith with little biblical basis. Yet this interpretation, based on a psychology of fear and destruction, guides the daily acts of thousands ifnot millions of North Americans and people worldwide.

//In The Rapture Exposed, professor of theology and ordained minister Barbara Rossing argues that the Left Behind novels' script for the world's future distorts the Bible, isdisingenuous, and flat out wrong. There is neither "rapture" of Christians off the earth, nor does Revelation predict that a seven-year tribulation culminating in war in Israel and the Middle East. Rather, Rossing argues, Revelationoffers a vision of God's healing love for the world - a love that will not be left behind. The Rapture Exposed makes the case for reclaiming Christianity from fundamentalists' destructive reading of the biblical story and back intoGod's beloved community.//

Sorry, i've been a professional 'proofreader' for 15 years so i see errors
before i can get to the text to read it

Sorry, i will not be giving my money to fight my ministry.
Nor will i sit under the ministry of a woman.
I shall remain a fundamentalist who believes in a Rapture.

Rossing: " ... nor does Revelation predict that a seven-year tribulation culminating in war in Israel and the Middle East ... "

She is correct but deceptive. All this is predicted in the
Bible. The 7-years comes from Daniel.

Rossing: " Rather, Rossing argues, Revelationoffers a vision of God's healing love for the world - a love that will not be left behind."

Sorry, there is a teaching in the Bible that there will be people left
behind (we just don't agree on who will be left behind).

Rossing: "The idea of "The Rapture"--thereturn of Christ to snatch born-again Christians off the earth--is an extremely popular interpretation of the Book of Revelation in the Bible ... "

Again, correct but deceptive. If all you had was the book of Revelation
you might never know of the rapture, the great snatch, the gathering,
the Blessed Hope, etc. These things are taught in the Bible
mostly in the New Testament, not just Revelation.

 

1 John 2:28-3:2 (KJV1611 edition)

And now, little children, abide in him, that when hee shall
appeare, wee may haue confidence, and not bee ashamed before
him at his comming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that euery one
which doeth righteousnesse, is borne of him.
1 John 3:1 Beholde, what manner of loue the Father hath
bestowed vpon vs, that wee should be called the sonnes
of God: therfore the world knoweth vs not, because it knewe him not.
2 Beloued, now are we the sonnes of God, and it doeth not
yet appeare, what wee shall be: but wee know, that when
he shall appeare, we shall bee like him: for we shall
see him as he is.

I just don't see how a God who has shown great mercy like this
and given great hope like this will make a whole generation
of His people go into the Tribualtion Day: it is hell come to earth.

 

1 Thess. 4:13-17 describes a rapture, but it doesn't specify the time, and it certainly does not teach that the saints are raptured to heaven. But 1 Thess. 5:1-11 does specify time by linking the rapture to the day of the Lord. 2 Thess. 2:1-4 identifies the day of the Lord with the second coming of Christ and our being gathered to him. 2 Thess. 1:6-10 links our relief from trials to the second coming of Christ when he comes in blazing fire with his powerful angels. Clearly Paul understands the rapture to take place after the tribulation.

Jesus teaches his disciples and the founders of the early church that the second coming and gathering of the elect (rapture) take place immediately after the days of distress, that is the tribulation period (Matt. 24:29-31).

Ed can't give a verse to prove a pre-trib rapture because there aren't any. But I've just given indisputable evidence from the mouth of Jesus himself that the "gathering of the elect" takes place after the tribulation. He told his disciples what things must take place before his second coming and the gathering of his saints to himself.

Ed, you haven't won anything. At no point does the Apostle Paul contradict this passage from Jesus.

[ March 07, 2005, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Paul33 ]

 

[personal attack snipped]

[ March 07, 2005, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

I would like to telling you something about 1 Thess. 4:17.

We all know that the Bible teaches us, there are three heavens according what Apostle Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:2, he saw Christ sits in the third heaven when he was caught up(I believe Paul was stoned to death, his soul went up to heaven 12 years earlier). I understand heaven simple means firmament. Firmament is an air or sky. Bible tells us, there are three heavens: first heaven - sky cover earth; second heaven- space-sun, stars, and planets; third heaven - God's home where New Jersualem is.

Ok, my question is, does Paul actually saying when we shall be caught, we shall meet Christ in the THIRD heaven??

Secondly, does Paul saying when AFTER Christ descends from the heaven, will Christ have to return up back into heaven again?? - 1 Thess. 4:17.

No doubt, 1 Thess. 4:16-17 telling us, Christ shall decend from the heaven, I ask you which one of the three heavens, Christ shall descend from?

Thirdly, does Paul saying 'air' equals with 'heaven' of 1 Thess. 4:16-17?

Later, I will discuss much more about rapture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Thank you. I have the ability to
differentiate my thoughts and God's thoughts -
others have dificulty doing that: they think
what they see in the Bible is what God meant.


I am speaking above of Tribulation #3.
Which of these do you contend that His people
will go through? You know, the one that
Jesus clearly indicates.

------------------------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

Here is a Bible word study showing where i get
these ideas:

"tribulations" in nKJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.

 

DeafPosttrib: "I would like to telling you something about 1 Thess. 4:17."

Ok, my question is, does Paul actually saying when we shall be caught, we shall meet Christ in the THIRD heaven??

my question is, does Paul actually saying when we shall be caught,
we shall NOT go with Christ to the THIRD heaven?

The answer to you question is we shall meet Jesus in
the 1st heaven. Now, will this rapture happen all over the earth
at at the same time (same 8-hr work shift day)? Did you know the
world is round? When i am standing my head points in a certain
direction. When my friend in Australia stands, his head points
the opposite direction. My up looks just like his down.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV1611 edition):

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne
bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

If i can see him when he gets raptured it will look to me like
he is 'falling away', i will feel like i'm 'caught up'. But to him
it will be different. He will feel 'caught up' and i would like like
i was 'falling away'.

So this falling away from the earth, is Paul saying we shall
go the the first or third heaven?

Praise God, i'm looking for falling away from this old earth
which Jesus, the Christ, comes to get me BEFORE the antichrist
is reavealed and before the Tribulation#3 DAY.

 

Ed,

you outlined of Five Tribulations with verses.

The reason you are doing it. Because you do not believe that we shall face 'great tribulation' of Matt. 24:21. In other word, you believe 'tribulaiton' is distinction or separated from 'great tribulation'.

Does the Bible actual saying 'great tribulaiton' is for the "Jews" only????

Greek word does not support the idea meaning of 'falling away' is rapture.

Because, remember the hermenuetic rule- Interpreting in CONTEXTUALLY, also, Interpreting in Grammatically too.

I understand 2 Thess. 2:3 tells us, do not let any person decived us of any means. What 'any means' speak of?? 'Any means' speak of rumours, false teaching on timing of Christ's coming contexts with verse 1 and 2. Apostle Paul tells us, 'day shall NOT COME'. What 'day' stands for? 'Day' of verse 3 is contexts with verse 1 and 2 talking about our gathering together at Christ's coming/Day of Christ. Clearly, Paul tells us, do not believe anyone saying that day of Christ is already arrived or soon anytime, day of Christ shall NOT COME till we must see the two things must to come to pass first - faling away in Greek word - 'apostasia', and the revealed of Antichrist.

Obivously, 2 Thess. 2:1-3 do not support pretrib doctrine. 2 Thess. 2:1-3 prove us that we must see the sign of apostasy, and the revealed of Antichrist must be occur first BEFORE Christ comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

you saying, we shall meet Christ in the first heaven. That is correct.

So, my question is, does Paul saying that we shall follow Christ enter into the THIRD heaven when after we meet Christ in the 'air'??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Paul33: "2 Thess. 2:1-4 identifies the day of the Lord with
the second coming of Christ and our being gathered to him.//

I'm from Missouri - show me.
This subject has been broached before.
The meaning of the first KAI (and) in 2 Thess 2:1 i consider
to be a connection of two similiar but NOT EQUAL sets.

What meaning of 'and' do you (plural 'you') think it means?
The whole eschatological meaning of this verse depends on
the meaning YOU ASSIGN (not the meaning that GOd intended,
but the meaning You /plural/ assign.

Yes, when one assigns the meaning of KAI that i do, one looks
for the two subjects to show up in the text.

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you

There is much of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
but NOTHING about the gathering UNLESS 'falling away' means
gathering means THE RAPTURE, the great snatch, the blessed hope
in Titus 2:13, the gathering in Matthew 24:31, etc.)

All God's doctrines have multiple names for the doctrine.
COnsider Salvation also redemption, adoption into the family
of God, new birth, born again, born into the family of God,
redemption, joining the body of Christ, servents of the most
High God, clothed with Christ, empowered by God, seated in heaven,
citizens of heaven, etc. etc.
Do you find it strange that RAPTURE has other terms for it?

 

Dr. Bob,

Titus 2:13- 'the blessed hope' does not prove pretrib rapture. Neither this verse saying that we shall escape from the coming tribulation. 'Blessed hope' is speak of our looking forward for our body all shall changed into immortality and have eternal life - Titus 1:2; and 3:7; and also Romans 8:19-23 too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I stand by the above statement.

This entire question could be settled if those of the pretrib persuasion would simply read the following prophecy by the Apostle Peter and then heed his advice at the end of the prophecy.

2 Peter 3:1-16
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Please note that in verses 9-14 God through the Apostle Peter tells us that he delays His return until all that are to be saved are in the household of faith, the Church. Keep in mind that Peter is writing Christians. He tells us that the Lord will return at an unexpected time at which time the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. He then tells us that we are to live Godly lives and again reminds us that with the coming of the Lord the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.. Peter again reminds us, as Christians, in verse 14 how we as Christians are to live prior to these events. Now obviously if Peter is talking to Christians they will be on earth when the Lord returns to bring all these thing to pass on the Last Day.

The passage to which I want to draw particular attention is the following from verse 16: they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Without doubt the pretribbers[ Is that name acceptable?] are able to wrest Scripture in an attempt to validate their own false doctrine in a manner that would put the Pharisees to shame.

 

Sigh!

Consider the timeline God gave me from
some 50 years of studying the scripture:

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues [/b]<-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Consider then 2 Peter 3:10
(i don't know which version cause some parties who
call me Mr Ed /i don't like it/ don't always remember to put the
version in their post)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

My God given outline does not conflict with this statement
nor does this statement conflict with the outline.

The outline in Peter's terms:

0. /not mentioned, but the saying is for the chruch age folk/
1. "as a thief in the night"
2. "the day of the Lord"s wrath
3. "the day of the Lord"s return
4. ";"
5. "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Hello! this is prophecy.
Peter sumarized future events.
sumarization is a retorical technique.
Is anybody realy surprised when a retorical technique
is used in a prophecy?

Consider the purpose of this passage 2 Peter 3:1-14.

2 Peter 3:11 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness."

2 Peter 3:14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look
for such things, be diligent
that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

Peter sumarized future events to serve his
purpose of encouraging the CHRUCH AGE saints.
Sumarization is a retorical technique.
Is anybody realy surprised when a retorical technique
is used in a prophecy?


OldRegular: "Now obviously if Peter is talking to Christians they will be on earth when the Lord returns to bring all these thing to pass on the Last Day."

Amen, Brother OldRegular -- preach it!
This will happen before the Tribulation on the last day of the
church age.