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THE RAPTURE
- Thread starter Charles Meadows
- Start date
Charles Meadows
New Member
Regarding the rapture "proof" so far...
Dr Bob, you referred to 1 Thess 4:16 and Rev 4:1 I think. The first is a comfort to the Thessalonian Christians. And if this is the first step in the eschatology timeline then why is it not related temporally to a subsequent millenium? Actually nowhere is a "rapture" related concretely to a subsequent millenium. In this passage we are told we will "ever be with the Lord".
Rev 4:1 seems to be reminiscent of the heavenly visions of the prophets.
I think the best case for a rapture so far has been made by Archery Addict in his extensive post. But even he has no concrete references. Many logical allusions have been made - but still the rapture seems to be just a product of an interpretation grid. If we are "kept" then we must not have to go through tribulation. Thus there must be a gathering away of the church prior to any hard times! Never mind that the Bible does not actually concretely describe such a thing!
Dr Bob, you referred to 1 Thess 4:16 and Rev 4:1 I think. The first is a comfort to the Thessalonian Christians. And if this is the first step in the eschatology timeline then why is it not related temporally to a subsequent millenium? Actually nowhere is a "rapture" related concretely to a subsequent millenium. In this passage we are told we will "ever be with the Lord".
Rev 4:1 seems to be reminiscent of the heavenly visions of the prophets.
I think the best case for a rapture so far has been made by Archery Addict in his extensive post. But even he has no concrete references. Many logical allusions have been made - but still the rapture seems to be just a product of an interpretation grid. If we are "kept" then we must not have to go through tribulation. Thus there must be a gathering away of the church prior to any hard times! Never mind that the Bible does not actually concretely describe such a thing!
carlaimpinge
New Member
Paul's gathering has been documented to be BEFORE the WRATH TO COME, the great tribulation, on this site SO MANY TIMES, it is a "shame" to post it again.
The gathering is before the day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
The day of the Lord is connected with the TIME OF JACOB'S trouble.
Jeremiah 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jeremiah 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
This time of trouble which JEWS are to "flee" from is called the great tribulation, also KNOWN as, the WRATH TO COME stated by John the Baptist, Matthew, and Luke,and testified to by the Lord.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Paul STATED the fact that we are delivered from the WRATH TO COME. It concerns the Lord's COMING for us, which is the GATHERING on the day of Christ BEFORE the day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
The wrath to come is the great tribulation, according to MULTIPLE REFERENCES. One is from Paul's BUDDY, Luke.
God help the brethen who can't read the verses.
The gathering is before the day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
The day of the Lord is connected with the TIME OF JACOB'S trouble.
Jeremiah 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jeremiah 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jeremiah 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
This time of trouble which JEWS are to "flee" from is called the great tribulation, also KNOWN as, the WRATH TO COME stated by John the Baptist, Matthew, and Luke,and testified to by the Lord.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Paul STATED the fact that we are delivered from the WRATH TO COME. It concerns the Lord's COMING for us, which is the GATHERING on the day of Christ BEFORE the day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
The wrath to come is the great tribulation, according to MULTIPLE REFERENCES. One is from Paul's BUDDY, Luke.
God help the brethen who can't read the verses.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Carl,
I think we are all familiar with these verses.
If The Bible contained a passage that read, "For one day we shall suddenly be caught us together, leaving the earth behind. After the return of Christ to earth we will reign with him for a thousand years. Then following the last judgment we shall forever be with him in heaven" - I would not be arguing here. The fact is there is no such passage. Yes Christ will return. Yes we will go with Him to heaven to be with Him forever. No sudden rapture. No literal 1000 years on earth with Christians governmentally ruling.
I contend that you, and many other rapturists, in an attempt to read scripture as literally as possible, have misinterpreted all of the verses concerning the last days. You miss the forest for the trees as they say.
I think we are all familiar with these verses.
If The Bible contained a passage that read, "For one day we shall suddenly be caught us together, leaving the earth behind. After the return of Christ to earth we will reign with him for a thousand years. Then following the last judgment we shall forever be with him in heaven" - I would not be arguing here. The fact is there is no such passage. Yes Christ will return. Yes we will go with Him to heaven to be with Him forever. No sudden rapture. No literal 1000 years on earth with Christians governmentally ruling.
I contend that you, and many other rapturists, in an attempt to read scripture as literally as possible, have misinterpreted all of the verses concerning the last days. You miss the forest for the trees as they say.
carlaimpinge
New Member
Charles,
Why would there be ONE verse to state the whole system of premillenial theology? THAT'S NOT GOD'S MANNER. (See Isaiah 28:9-13) Paul tells us to READ, STUDY, COMPARE, CONTINUE, and RIGHTLY DIVIDE the scriptures. ONLY THEN will you get their full dispensational teaching concerning it.
To then state in contradiction of Pauline teaching that there is no SUDDEN APPEARANCE of the Lord Jesus and GATHERING of the body of Christ is blatant falsehood. (1 Cor.15 and 1 Thess.4 attest to it.) To state that there is no 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as PROPHESIED and recorded by John is "contradicting blasphemy". (Rev.20) The writings of Moses (Ps.90, Gen.2), Peter (2 Peter 3), Paul (Heb.3-4), and John ALL substantiate that there is a 1000 year sabbatical day of rest. God works by sevens in the Holy Scriptures.
Familiarity with verses means nothing. The eyes of your understanding are to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit (Eph.1), or you'll just draw a BLANK, as most amillenialists do when reading MANY VERSES of familiarity.
If you consider what I stated in the previous post MISINTERPRETATION, point it out.
I'm SUBMISSIVE to the Holy Scriptures, but not to the bogus banter of those who think they are smarter, wiser, and more intellectual than the Holy Spirit.
It doesn't bother me to FOLLOW THE TRUTH OF THE BOOK.
Anyone who sites 1 Thess. 4:13-17 as proof of a pre-trib rapture just isn't reading the same Bible I'm reading.
Does it describe a rapture? Yes.
Does it say when? No.
But the same writer of the letter clearly indicates when in 2 Thess. 1:6-10.
You see, post-trib adherents can point to that one verse that proves their position. In fact, we have more than one verse to point to.
Pre-tribbers don't have that luxury.
Jesus couldn't have been more clear in Matthew 24. When someone can show me why Jesus was incorrect in teaching his disciples, the founders of the early church, what must take place during the tribulation before the trumpet sounds and the elect are gathered, then I'll switch back to a pre-trib rapture.
But alas, you will never be able to prove Jesus wrong. The chronology is too clear, both in Matthew 24, and 2 Thess. 1:6-10, and 2 Thess. 2:1-4, and 1 Thess. 5, and Rev. 19.
As to the thousand years, also very clear in Scripture: Zech 13-14, Rev. 19-20.
Chronology from Scripture:
Last Days (Ascension of Christ to Second Coming)
General persecution and tribulation
Seven years of tribulation
Second Coming/Rapture of Saints(1st Resurrection)
Bemis Seat of Christ
Thousand year reign of Christ on earth
Great White Throne Judgment (2nd Resurrection)
New Heaven/New Earth (Eternity)
Does it describe a rapture? Yes.
Does it say when? No.
But the same writer of the letter clearly indicates when in 2 Thess. 1:6-10.
You see, post-trib adherents can point to that one verse that proves their position. In fact, we have more than one verse to point to.
Pre-tribbers don't have that luxury.
Jesus couldn't have been more clear in Matthew 24. When someone can show me why Jesus was incorrect in teaching his disciples, the founders of the early church, what must take place during the tribulation before the trumpet sounds and the elect are gathered, then I'll switch back to a pre-trib rapture.
But alas, you will never be able to prove Jesus wrong. The chronology is too clear, both in Matthew 24, and 2 Thess. 1:6-10, and 2 Thess. 2:1-4, and 1 Thess. 5, and Rev. 19.
As to the thousand years, also very clear in Scripture: Zech 13-14, Rev. 19-20.
Chronology from Scripture:
Last Days (Ascension of Christ to Second Coming)
General persecution and tribulation
Seven years of tribulation
Second Coming/Rapture of Saints(1st Resurrection)
Bemis Seat of Christ
Thousand year reign of Christ on earth
Great White Throne Judgment (2nd Resurrection)
New Heaven/New Earth (Eternity)
carlaimpinge
New Member
The prooftext of a PRETRIB RAPTURE "extends" into chapter five, brother.
The gathering is not STATED in 2 Thess. chapter one, but is FOUND in chapter two at the day of Christ, which is connected to the REVELATION of the man of sin at the MIDST OF THE WEEK.
That is a pretrib gathering. The ONLY "eschatalogical" TIME OF tribulation begins in the MIDST of Daniel's week.
Post trib folks can't point to ONE VERSE OR TWENTY which teaches the gathering of the body of Christ AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
Ya'll boys are something. EVERY pretribulationist ALIVE believes that Jesus is coming AFTER THE TRIBULATION. They believe he comes BEFORE to gather the body of Christ. They believe that DUE TO SUBSEQUENT PAULINE REVELATION.
The Lord Jesus didn't speak a SINGLE WORD about the body of Christ. It was a MYSTERY revealed to Paul HISTORICALLY.
We NEVER try to prove Jesus wrong. We ACCEPT everything he said without CONTRADICTING Paul. He had MORE TO SAY than just the gospels, and he said it DUE TO the fall of Israel through Paul.
Chronologies? You've got be kidding.
Anyone who teaches the gathering of the body of Christ is found in Matt.24 ALSO TEACHES that Paul is a liar. He said the MYSTERY was given unto him, and he revealed it. He got it from the ASCENDED, GLORIFIED, Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor.15:8)
There is no body of Christ found in Matt.24.
There is no gathering found in 2 Thess.1.
There is no post-trib rapture in 2 Thess.2:1-4.
There is no gathering AFTER the day of the Lord in 1 Thess.5.
There is NONE OF THE ABOVE found in Rev.19.
Your chronology is just as messed up as your prooftexts.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Carl,
It would take pages to explain this to you. I have studied just as much as you. In addition to the bible I've extensively studied the LXX, the targums, the dead sea scrolls, the pseudepigrapha, the apocrypha, the tannaitic literature...
I have tried to get as much of a picture of second temple Judaism and its thought as possible so that I would have a good idea of how the scriptures would have been perceived in the time of Jesus.
To me not all scripture is literal. It must be interpreted against the backdrop of second temple Judaism and its thought.
"Last Days (Ascension of Christ to Second Coming)
General persecution and tribulation
Seven years of tribulation
Second Coming/Rapture of Saints(1st Resurrection)
Bemis Seat of Christ
Thousand year reign of Christ on earth
Great White Throne Judgment (2nd Resurrection)
New Heaven/New Earth (Eternity)"
This sort of chronology (offered by Paul33 in this case) is an example (in my opinion) of how we as Christians misinterpret scripture - seeing everything only from the point of view of a 21st century western mind.
I see no more point in debating with you on this point. You may see my eschatology as wrong. Fine - that's your opinion. While I appreciate your familiarity with the scriptures I believe your scheme to be completely wrong and at odds with the intended meaning of scripture as a whole.
Consider the end times. The second coming has been described in the Gospels, Paul's letters, Revelation, Zechariah, etc as well as in the noncanonical writings. If you try to make each description literally true you will end up with nonsense.
Jesus will return and we will go with Him at the second coming. That's it. The "pretrib rapture" does not exist. The millenium is not a literal 1000 years.
It would take pages to explain this to you. I have studied just as much as you. In addition to the bible I've extensively studied the LXX, the targums, the dead sea scrolls, the pseudepigrapha, the apocrypha, the tannaitic literature...
I have tried to get as much of a picture of second temple Judaism and its thought as possible so that I would have a good idea of how the scriptures would have been perceived in the time of Jesus.
To me not all scripture is literal. It must be interpreted against the backdrop of second temple Judaism and its thought.
"Last Days (Ascension of Christ to Second Coming)
General persecution and tribulation
Seven years of tribulation
Second Coming/Rapture of Saints(1st Resurrection)
Bemis Seat of Christ
Thousand year reign of Christ on earth
Great White Throne Judgment (2nd Resurrection)
New Heaven/New Earth (Eternity)"
This sort of chronology (offered by Paul33 in this case) is an example (in my opinion) of how we as Christians misinterpret scripture - seeing everything only from the point of view of a 21st century western mind.
I see no more point in debating with you on this point. You may see my eschatology as wrong. Fine - that's your opinion. While I appreciate your familiarity with the scriptures I believe your scheme to be completely wrong and at odds with the intended meaning of scripture as a whole.
Consider the end times. The second coming has been described in the Gospels, Paul's letters, Revelation, Zechariah, etc as well as in the noncanonical writings. If you try to make each description literally true you will end up with nonsense.
Jesus will return and we will go with Him at the second coming. That's it. The "pretrib rapture" does not exist. The millenium is not a literal 1000 years.
carlaimpinge
New Member
Charles,
I can honestly state that I probably haven't studied as extensively or am personally familiar with all the writings which you have listed. I'm just a dumb ole country boy from Alabama who reads and believes the Holy Bible. In fact, that's all I did read for many years before I ever bought a single book by ANYONE. After reading the Bible (which I still read on the average of 20-40 pages a day), it's easy to SPOT things which don't match it's statements. I have no theological persuasion as learned from ANY one man. I got mine from the Book. I'm sure you have noticed that I'm NOT the standard "pretribber". I can't be DUE TO PAULINE REVELATION.
I understand that you don't want to bring forth your reasons of teaching unto me. You know that I will PRODUCE VERSES, as I have so many times in the past to contradict any false teaching which anyone states.
If you're not going to produce these reasons, why float around the board, and just tell people they're wrong?
This ain't no Oprah Winfrey bullshoot, where everyone can be right in their own eyes. Paul the apostle CONTRADICTED that mindset with Hymaneus and Philetus, who taught OPPOSITE of what he did. (2 Tim.2)
The studying of the Holy Scriptures does not produce nonsense, but wisdom, knowledge, and understanding.
The coming of the Lord has MULTIPLE APPEARANCES, not just two.
The pretrib gathering does exist, taught by Paul, as found in 1 Thess.4-5.
Those who refused the mark of the beast will REIGN will Christ on earth for a 1000 years, according to John. (Rev.20)
UNBELIEF of the scriptures causes many a headache and heresy.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Carl,
I read the Bible daily. And I too am from rural America (? country boy sorta).
My whole point of study is to KNOW the Bible. "Rightly dividing" the word doesn't just mean memorizing it. It means studying each NT verse in the context of the OT and of second temple Jewish thought. I think if one studies he will see that the millenium is hyperbolic - not literal. The return of Jesus is real, yes. We note that different passages describe it a little differently. That doesn't mean that each one describes something different.
And what of "producing verses"?
Any cultist can "produce verses" to support his purported position. What I'm interested in is appropriately contextualizing and interpreting verses.
I read the Bible daily. And I too am from rural America (? country boy sorta).
My whole point of study is to KNOW the Bible. "Rightly dividing" the word doesn't just mean memorizing it. It means studying each NT verse in the context of the OT and of second temple Jewish thought. I think if one studies he will see that the millenium is hyperbolic - not literal. The return of Jesus is real, yes. We note that different passages describe it a little differently. That doesn't mean that each one describes something different.
And what of "producing verses"?
Any cultist can "produce verses" to support his purported position. What I'm interested in is appropriately contextualizing and interpreting verses.
carlaimpinge
New Member
Charles,Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Carl,
I read the Bible daily. And I too am from rural America (? country boy sorta).
My whole point of study is to KNOW the Bible. "Rightly dividing" the word doesn't just mean memorizing it. It means studying each NT verse in the context of the OT and of second temple Jewish thought. I think if one studies he will see that the millenium is hyperbolic - not literal. The return of Jesus is real, yes. We note that different passages describe it a little differently. That doesn't mean that each one describes something different.
And what of "producing verses"?
Any cultist can "produce verses" to support his purported position. What I'm interested in is appropriately contextualizing and interpreting verses.
I don't doubt that you do.
Knowing the Bible comes from the LEADING of the Holy Spirit though comparison of his words. (1 Cor.2) I don't need ANY OTHER BOOK to understand it. (2 Tim.3:16) BELIEF OF THOSE WORDS AS THE WORDS OF GOD GUARANTEE THE PAULINE PRINCIPLE OF RIGHT DIVISION. (1 Thess.2:13, 2 Tim.2)
A hyperbolic position of the millenium damages the veracity of the words as read. (Almost sound like a scholar don't I? I've got to watch that for I hate that.)
It overthrows God's system of timing, the Seventh day as a sabbatical rest, the fact that days are likened to a 1000 years, the fact that Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are promised a 1000 generations of inheritance, the fact that Christ Jesus, as the Son of David, will get his throne in Jerusalem, and of course, the fact that John said it 6 times in one passage. It's not figurative or symbolical. It's a literal, actual, and factual amount of time TESTIFIED to numerous times in various manners within the Holy Bible by several different writers.
Different of description certainly doesn't mean multiplicity. (4 gospels concerning one coming for example.) OPPOSITE DESCRIPTIONS do though.
The REVELATION of Jesus Christ is MULTIPLE, although described as ONE. (The OT passages are numerous.) The OT descriptions, along with NT revelation IDENTIFY four different appearances of the COMING OF THE LORD to this earth. They are given by the OT (Isaiah 53) by the Lord Jesus (Matt.24), Paul (1 Thess.4-5, 1 Cor.15 a mystery), and John (Rev.19)
Of course, cultists produce verses. They have to IMITATE the truth to produce falsehood, by NOT FOLLOWING the contextual, interpretation, usually by claiming that it is figurative or non-literal. Most just apply verses WRONGLY, dispensationally to produce their heresies for this age. MOST FALSE TEACHINGS are dispensational truths OUT OF SYNC with Pauline revelation. They got that from Satan as his ministers. They dogged Paul ALL HIS LIFE.
It still doesn't NEGATE the correct form of teaching, which is by prooftext, as the Lord Jesus used. (Matt.22)
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I am not sure what your point is about playing the martyr unless this is another example of bias on this forum. However, neither the passage from 1 Thessalonians or Revelation 4:1 establish a pretrib rapture.
Revelation 4.1 is simply a part of the Revelation to the Apostle John that occurs in heaven. John, in the spirit, is taken to Heaven as he clearly states in Revelation 4:2.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is a part of the message of the Apostle Paul to the Saints at Thessalonica who were concerned that the resurrection had already happened. It is a comfort passage and simply presents a picture of the resurrection of the bodies of the deceased Saints and the glorification of the living Saints at the time of the General Resurrection, as is clearly shown in John 5:28, 29.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Carl,
Let you know, Apostle Paul wrote them as epistle, there were no chapter and verse in that time. Chapters and verses were added few hundreds years later.
1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 1 Thess. 5:1-10 both are speak of the same coming of Christ, not different event.
rapture will be occur AT the day of the Lord same time. Day of the Lord is for to judge the world at Christ's coming. Christ shall come like as 'thief in the night'. People who are not watch and ready, remain in the dark, will be caught up in ashamed and be judged cast into everlasting fire. Paul commanded us, that we do not be in the dark, we must be walk in the light, and be watch, because Christ shall come as thief in the night. We must be watch and be ready for His coming, so we must be blameless and not be ashamed.
1 Thess. 13;18; and 1 Thess. 5:1-28 both do not prove 'pretrib' rapture will be occur either 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming.
OldRegular and I both do not see clear 'prove' verse in the Bible saying rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming. You do really need a CLEAR one verse to prove us that rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Let you know, Apostle Paul wrote them as epistle, there were no chapter and verse in that time. Chapters and verses were added few hundreds years later.
1 Thess. 4:13-18 & 1 Thess. 5:1-10 both are speak of the same coming of Christ, not different event.
rapture will be occur AT the day of the Lord same time. Day of the Lord is for to judge the world at Christ's coming. Christ shall come like as 'thief in the night'. People who are not watch and ready, remain in the dark, will be caught up in ashamed and be judged cast into everlasting fire. Paul commanded us, that we do not be in the dark, we must be walk in the light, and be watch, because Christ shall come as thief in the night. We must be watch and be ready for His coming, so we must be blameless and not be ashamed.
1 Thess. 13;18; and 1 Thess. 5:1-28 both do not prove 'pretrib' rapture will be occur either 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming.
OldRegular and I both do not see clear 'prove' verse in the Bible saying rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming. You do really need a CLEAR one verse to prove us that rapture will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
carlaimpinge
New Member
Your trivia concerning manuscript evidence is unnecessary.
I have not stated the gathering of chapter four and five are different.
Our rapture is on the day of Christ (2 Thess.2, Phil.1,2), NOT the day of the Lord. WE ESCAPE the day of the Lord. (1 Thess.5)
Christ doesn't come like a thief in 1 Thess.5. The day of the Lord comes like a thief. You confounded them.
Nobody is caught up in shame, and cast into the everlasting fire.
1 Thess.1, 4-5, prove that Christ comes for the body of Christ BEFORE the great tribulation, which is the wrath to come.
How well do I know that you and your ole buddy can't see clear.
I'm not trying to prove anything to you or him. I'm DEMONSTRATING to others that neither you nor him can COMMENT intelligently or diligently COMPARE verses which speak of a subject. (The wrath to come being the great tribulation.)
Proverbs 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Charles,
You may be right, but at least my chronology, in contrast to Carl's is found in a rational and reasonable understanding of the Scriptures. Millions believe as I do in a post-trib, premillenial return of Christ, a thousand year reign of Christ, and then eternity in a new heaven and on a new earth.
If there is no millenium, so what. I'll be with Christ according to 1 Thess. 4:13-17, and I will be with him in eternity 1000 years sooner!
Thanks for the measured and reasonable discussion.
You may be right, but at least my chronology, in contrast to Carl's is found in a rational and reasonable understanding of the Scriptures. Millions believe as I do in a post-trib, premillenial return of Christ, a thousand year reign of Christ, and then eternity in a new heaven and on a new earth.
If there is no millenium, so what. I'll be with Christ according to 1 Thess. 4:13-17, and I will be with him in eternity 1000 years sooner!
Thanks for the measured and reasonable discussion.
carlaimpinge
New Member
Watch the brother change what I said, not paying any attention to when the body of Christ or Christians FIRST APPEAR in history.
No Christian is WAITING for the Son of Man to do anything in Matt.24. I didn't state there was no gathering in Matt.24. There is NO GATHERING as revealed to Paul in Matt.24. DEAD PEOPLE ARE RAISED in Paul's. You find LIVING ONLY in Matt.24. He didn't COMPARE the passages.
Members of the BODY OF CHRIST are not being spoken of in Matt.24 due to the revelation being given to Paul, HISTORICALLY. Jesus Christ is speaking of ELECT JEWS WHO FLED FROM JERUSALEM in the midst of Daniel's week. That's what the text said.
The poor brother has trouble reading the text. The saints are not glorified in 2 Thess.1. It is the Lord who is glorified and admired. There is NO GATHERING found in chapter one. HE INSERTED IT DUE TO SUPPOSITION. The gathering is found in chapter two, which is connected to the REVELATION of the man of sin AT THE MIDST OF THE WEEK. The POST TRIB COMING is found in chapter one, when he takes vengeance, and in chapter two at the DESTRUCTION of the man of sin AFTER the tribulation.
Note he SUPPOSES the day of 2 Thess.1, is the day of 1 Thess.4-5. Wrong supposition, inference, and teaching. There are TWO DAYS, being spoken about. One is the day of the Lord and the other is the day of Christ. (1 Thess.4-5, 2 Thess.2) One concerns a gathering BEFORE the day of the Lord, and the other concerns a coming to take vengeance and destroy the son of perdition.
The brother uses a "version" which changes the day of Christ to the day of the Lord THEREBY CONTRADICTING Paul in 1 Thess.5. You ESCAPE the day of the Lord. It is not SYNONYMOUS with the gathering as being AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
The day of the Lord in 1 Thess.5 is the START of the tribulation at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, not the END. That fact MATCHES 2 Thess.2, where the day of Christ is CONNECTED with the REVELATION of the man of sin at the MIDST OF THE WEEK.
The gathering DOES NOT occur on the day of the Lord, but the day of Christ. He makes them SYNONYMOUS, which contradicts Pauline usage of the terms.
Sorry bud, you blew it with your "bible". The boy from Bama is still correct.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Both day of Christ & day of the Lord are synonmous. Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord?
Our gathering shall be ON the day of the Lord, same as day of Christ.
You saying, there is no resurrection, or the members of Body of Christ in Matthew 24.
Remember, Christ already discuss resurrections earlier in John chapter 5 and 6 BEFORE he preaching on Matthew 24. Disciples already know the resurrection shall be occur on the last day(John 6:39,40,44, & 54).
There are many details describe at the secomd coming, yet all of these will be occured during on that day at Christ's coming.
For example - Christ rides on white horse at second coming of Revelation 19, it mentioned only ONCE in the Bible. How about Matthew chapter 24? Why doesn't Christ mentioned of white horse in Matthew 24? Does that mean white horse is being excluded from Matthew 24?
We know there are many details, what will be happen at second coming, yet all of these will be include at the second coming in THAT day.
Later, I will discuss more and will reply back to you what you said to me of verses.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Our gathering shall be ON the day of the Lord, same as day of Christ.
You saying, there is no resurrection, or the members of Body of Christ in Matthew 24.
Remember, Christ already discuss resurrections earlier in John chapter 5 and 6 BEFORE he preaching on Matthew 24. Disciples already know the resurrection shall be occur on the last day(John 6:39,40,44, & 54).
There are many details describe at the secomd coming, yet all of these will be occured during on that day at Christ's coming.
For example - Christ rides on white horse at second coming of Revelation 19, it mentioned only ONCE in the Bible. How about Matthew chapter 24? Why doesn't Christ mentioned of white horse in Matthew 24? Does that mean white horse is being excluded from Matthew 24?
We know there are many details, what will be happen at second coming, yet all of these will be include at the second coming in THAT day.
Later, I will discuss more and will reply back to you what you said to me of verses.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
carlaimpinge
New Member
Misguided and false understanding always do you boys in.
The gathering is BEFORE the day of the Lord, NOT ON the day of the Lord, for we ESCAPE that day. It's very simple and plain in 1 Thess.5. Ya'll can't get that fact, which overthrows your system.
The discussion is not about the Lord being Christ. It is about the DAY of the Lord BEING the DAY of Christ.
The gathering is on the day of Christ in 2 Thess.2, NOT the day of the Lord.
The day of the Lord is an OT term, while the day of Christ is a NT term. The Lord in the day of the Lord is the FATHER, not the Son, who is Christ. Paul distinguished the Father (Lord) from the Son (Lord Christ). (Col.3) Lord DOES NOT EQUAL Christ everytime you read it in the NT, for it can be the Spirit (1 Cor.3), the Son (1 Thess.4), or the Father (Col.3) for ALL are Lord.
That's right. Jesus states nothing about the body of Christ or resurrection found in Matt.24 at that gathering. IT WAS REVEALED HISTORICALLY TO PAUL. The Lord didn't reveal it,according to Pauline testimony. Can you understand that statement? I certainly know that the Lord taught the resurrection. He didn't teach it was AT THE SAME TIME "anywhere" as the LIVING gathered by angels. YOU SURMISE THAT. He NEVER connected the resurrection with the gathering IN ANY PASSAGE IN THE GOSPELS. You put them together to try and falsely MIMIC Paul's revelation of the mystery of the gathering of the body of Christ, which was UNKNOWN before him!
Of course, the mention of a horse was excluded from Matt.24. You didn't see it there did you? He didn't mention the white horse in Matt.24 because he's ON A CLOUD, (Luke 21, Matt.24, Rev.14) NOT A HORSE, at that APPEARANCE. He's sitting on a THRONE, not a horse AT THAT APPEARANCE. The throne is ON THE CLOUD, IN THE CLOUDS at that appearance. (Rev.6)
Matt.24 is "not" Rev.19. It is a DIFFERENT APPEARANCE.
I'll be waiting to DEMONSTATE that you don't have any idea as to what you're talking about.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Frankly I like what the Southern Baptist Faith and Message states about the Body Of Jesus Christ.
The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”
Its hard to beat.
The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”
Its hard to beat.