The Real Issue

[Winman]

Why would we avoid, "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

It's not as if it says, "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness onto his elect alone," made his light shine in his preselected elect one's hearts to irresistibly draw them to accept and follow the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ, but not any one else." The passage BobRyan quoted show this quite convincingly...he sent his light to "enlighten all men" so that "all might believe." Sorry, but the only thing here that supports your assertions are found in your own imaginations.

Not only that, but what is the light composed of? KNOWLEDGE. That is how God enlightens men, by TEACHING them (Jhn 6:45)

This verse is simply saying that God the Father was revealed to us by Jesus himself, in his person, his mighty works, and his teachings.

Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Mat 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

This verse is simply saying that Jesus Christ in his person and his teaching manifested the Father.

Jhn 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Jhn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

This is what 2 Cor 4:6 is speaking about, that God the Father was manifested and revealed through Jesus himself.

God does not supernaturally zap men to know these things. No, just the opposite is true, God became flesh and dwelt among men, God came down to our level and revealed himself in a manner men could see and understand.

This is what 2 Cor 4:6 is saying; that the light or knowledge of the Father was revealed by Jesus Christ in person when he became a man and dwelt among us.

 

[Protestant]

God does not supernaturally zap men to know these things.

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

No, just the opposite is true, God became flesh and dwelt among men, God came down to our level and revealed himself in a manner men could see and understand.

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

The result of their "seeing and understanding"............?

Murder.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon

Why would we avoid, "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

One reason you avoid it is the obvious conclusion it leads to.

It's not as if it says, "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness onto his elect alone,"

Genesis mentions the supernatural work of God
alone... the light did not co-operate with God's work....I do not see the elect mentioned in the account of God creating light.You introduce it to try and confuse the issue....unsucessfully.

made his light shine in his preselected elect one's hearts to irresistibly draw them to accept and follow the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ, but not any one else."

This is your evil twist on the clear scripture-Paul already said the light of the
gospel is hidden....3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The passage BobRyan quoted show this quite convincingly...he sent his light to "enlighten all men" so that "all might believe." Sorry, but the only thing here that supports your assertions are found in your own imagination

The falsely used passage by bob r does not in any way address this truth.Verse 3 does not say all men are enlightened...it says the light is hidden to them who are lost....secondly they are satanically blinded.

Your hatred of this truth is manifest right here as you oppose clear truth by diverting to your "twisted" take that is not here in this text or as you say... my imagination. Start a new thread on the other text...but do not pervert this one as you do:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

...not say all men are enlightened...

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

Yeah, you got us. It doesn't say "all" is says "every". :laugh:

 

[Benjamin]

Verse 3 does not say all men are enlightened...it says the light is hidden to them who are lost....secondly they are satanically blinded.

Then Satan is in sovereign control over God’s appeal of light? I see. Interesting. That’s a new one. Men lack the ability to respond to God’s appeal due to Satan’s powerful works in the world, hmm. Some message you have there about God’s light being insufficient for all men due to Satan’s influences. But I consider such a message which gives men an excuse a lie and doing the battle for the wrong side…

Your hatred of this truth is manifest right here as you oppose clear truth by diverting to your "twisted" take that is not here in this text or as you say... my imagination. Start a new thread on the other text...but do not pervert this one as you do:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

Hate is a strong word, but it is true that here is “good” “reason” to take opposition with your ambitious “phikosophical” works which argue for your doctrines of determinism and no genuine hope for some to be the true message of light in the world. :thumbsup:

(Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
(1Jn 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

 

[Winman]

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

Yeah, you got us. It doesn't say "all" is says "every". :laugh:

Exactly.

There can be no possible misunderstanding of the direct analogy between Genesis 1:3 and Paul's direct application in 2 Cor. 4:6 to the salvation of God's elect as there were no INSTRUMENTAL MEANS in Genesis 1:3 just as there can be no instrumental means operating WITHIN the heart of men of which Paul speaks of in that text.

Biblicist is actually correct, 2 Cor 4:6 does allude to Gen 1:3. The problem is, this physical light in Gen 1:3 can be seen by ALL men, except for a very few blind folks. But generally speaking, ALL men can see this light, not just a few.

So, this verse actually refutes the idea that God only enlightens a few men.

 

[BobRyan]

You are still avoiding 2 cor 4.....because the text is clear.......there is no honest attempt at debate by him or you as this pattern has been exposed openly.creation was supernatural. ..new creation is supernatural.

I argued these points ...

Originally Posted by BobRyan
No wait... let me guess.. you are trying to bend 2Cor 4:6 to "fit" Calvinism.

Won't work.

2Cor 4:6
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

John 1
. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

The NT doctrine on Christ and the light of the world is - Arminian and cannot be "bent" to Calvinism.

===============================

But I never argued that the light coming into the world is not "supernatural".

I never argue that the emnity between fallen man and Satan's kingdom - emnity put there by God in Genesis 3 - is not supernatural.


I never argue that the new Birth done by the Holy Spirit is not supernatural.

I never argue that the "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" of John 12:32 is not a supernatural drawing of ALL - (the unqualified unlimited ALL) by Christ. (Thus supernaturally ENABLING ALL to choose the gospel invitation for as even Calvinists will admit - the DRAWING of God enables the choice that depravity disables)

I never argue that the work of the Holy Spirit who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" is not a supernatural work of God.

I never argue that the drawing of God is not "supernatural".

Why do you think that the Arminian position needs to deny the work of God who "Draws ALL" and is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" -- as a supernatural work?

Calvinism sometimes presents a false dichotomy to make its case.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

Yeah, you got us. It doesn't say "all" is says "every". :laugh:

indeed "EVERY MAN" and when expanded to include "woman and children" as we all know it must - "Every one of MANKIND".

(And not "every mankind" of course).

What is worse for Calvinism is what follows though.

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

Because in Calvinism no matter how many times God says "He so loved the WORLD that He gave" or that He "Draws ALL" --- what God really does is just draw the "FEW" of Matt 7 - the arbitrarily select FEW - that He sovereignly selects as "HIS OWN". Reprogramming them, zapping them, pre-regenerating them - on a zap -- by-- zap basis without touching any of the 'MANY' of Matt 7 that are lost.

And THESE few - are supposed to do what they were programmed to do.

So NEVER should we find a text of the form

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

Apparently Calvinism does not work no matter how you slice it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

This verse is simply saying that God the Father was revealed to us by Jesus himself, in his person, his mighty works, and his teachings.

this verse says nothing of the father being revealed...it is speakin g of the gospel;

This is what 2 Cor 4:6 is speaking about, that God the Father was manifested and revealed through Jesus himself.

Jesus did reveal the Father....but not here.

God does not supernaturally zap men to know these things.

The text says God shone in the hearts of those who believe...it is supernatural....you do not understand biblical salvation.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

Yeah, you got us. It doesn't say "all" is says "every". :laugh:

Yet once again you ignore the OP....that is all you can attempt to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

Hello Benjamin......I said this;
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Verse 3 does not say all men are enlightened...it says the light is hidden to them who are lost....secondly they are satanically blinded.

To which you ask this question;

Then Satan is in sovereign control over God’s appeal of light?

God is the only sovereign. Angelic beings are stronger than natural men.
Natural men love darkness not light.That is because of the fall.Natural men are also blinded by the activity of Satan we are told in this text.

A strength of the biblical teaching known as calvinism is that when God shines in the heart of a natural man, it is made effectual by the spirits work of supernaturally granting a new heart, and indwelling that sinner.The indwelling Spirit is greater than he that is in the world...don't you agree?

I see. Interesting. That’s a new one

Now you might see more clearly

Men lack the ability to respond to God’s appeal due to Satan’s powerful works in the world, hmm.

The general call can be resisted.satan offers false religion as a substitute. men love sin,men love the world.God has to set them free.jn8

Some message you have there about God’s light being insufficient

there is the light of creation, there is the light of conscience...which leave men without excuse..Rom1....but the light of the gospel only comes by new birth.:thumbsup:

for all men due to Satan’s influences. But I consider such a message which gives men an excuse a lie and doing the battle for the wrong side…

that is why I am offering you help to see what others see....your view is off.

Hate is a strong word

,
It must be a strong hatred that makes someone oppose themselves everyday in resisting truth as we see here.

but it is true that here is “good” “reason” to take opposition with your ambitious “phikosophical” works which argue for your doctrines of determinism and no genuine hope for some to be the true message of light in the world.

if there is life there is hope....this charge is easily defeated.

(Joh 1:9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
(1Jn 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

[/QUOTE]

these verses are for a separate thread...this thread is about 2cor4:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Biblicist is actually correct, 2 Cor 4:6 does allude to Gen 1:3. The problem is, this physical light in Gen 1:3 can be seen by ALL men,

Genius insight Winman.....in Gen 1:3 men were not created yet to "see" anything much less..."light"

except for a very few blind folks. But generally speaking, ALL men can see this light, not just a few.

This is an example why you get every verse wrong.

So, this verse actually refutes the idea that God only enlightens a few men.

Completely wrong again...

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan

I argued these points ...


No wait... let me guess.. you are trying to bend 2Cor 4:6 to "fit" Calvinism.

Won't work.

No one is bending anything..we just understand the text as written.It wo
rks just fine..try it:thumbs:

2Cor 4:6
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

The texts in Jn are another thread....stick to the OP.

The NT doctrine on Christ and the light of the world is - Arminian and cannot be "bent" to Calvinism.

there is not an arminian text anywhere in the bible.
===============================

I never argue that the "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" of John 12:32 is not a supernatural drawing of ALL - (the unqualified unlimited ALL) by Christ. (Thus supernaturally ENABLING ALL to choose the gospel invitation for as even Calvinists will admit - the DRAWING of God enables the choice that depravity disables)

Bob...we have not interacted that often.....so I need you to explain exactly how this works...in a bit of detail....

Jesus is lifted up on the cross....at that very moment there is a man in the rainforrest.....a man in alaska.....siberia..... and central america....tell me how they are drawn to Jesus????? How about men who died before the cross, how does this lifting up...draw them exactly???
Do they hear a voice? Does God send a message in their own language to them.....you and others post this verse as if you think you understand it....so explain what it means in your world!!!

Why do you think that the Arminian position needs to deny the work of God who "Draws ALL" and is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" -- as a supernatural work?

You post this wrong out of context verse everyday.God is very willing that many perish......if you understood this verse in contect you would know that every single person being spoken of here will be saved.None will perish.

Calvinism sometimes presents a false dichotomy to make its case.

I do not think you understand biblical calvinism..

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is what Arminianism leads to.....I will go to a Bible study this morning at a UMC and they will tell me that I don't have to be saved to understand scripture. Personally I cant be persuaded that Arminianism is the right theology after seeing the end result displayed so blatantly in denial of Christ.

 

[agedman]

I am not certain how this would "fit" into this thread.

There are two concerns to which I would like to see responses.

In the opening of John, it is clear that the scriptures 1) state humankind is in darkness, 2) they love darkness rather than light 3) those that receive Christ have light given them.

First item:

There is a difference between rejecting and avoiding.

Reject has the connotation of "dismiss" and "refuse."

Avoid has "shunning" and "invalidate."

To those that dwell in darkness, light isn't welcome - it is shunned.

Think of a person who is snug asleep and suddenly a bright light is shown in their face? Do they "reject" the light, or do they "avoid" the light?

That person avoids the light; takes action to "cover" or turn away from the light - shun the light. Often that person does not comprehend, nor are they aware of the source of the light, but are too busy being like mice scurrying away from the glare into the shadows and hidden places. Such would invalidate and relegate the light as disgusting.

The same is with the opening of John.

"The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

The thinking that one has the ability to "accept or reject" isn't a very accurate picture of what is taking place in this part of John.

Rather, the scene is one of avoidance. Those who are familiar, comfortable, and understanding of the darkness - avoiding the light rather than rejecting the light - they prefer darkness and do not even comprehend light. The dark pushes against the light, desires to overcome the light, and makes certain that light does not enlighten all and every.

Look about the room you are in. Are there not shadows; lurking darkness, ready to leap out when the light is extinguished?

Second Item:

The presumption concerning the word "receive."

Often, on the BB, it seems the word "accept" and "receive" are used interchangeably.

However, there is a chasm wide difference.

"Accept" would indicate that one would be the determiner in what is offered.

"Receive" is that which is bestowed (not just offered).

John is careful to use this wording, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,..."

Now, I would call on those familiar with languages to correct me if I am wrong, but the Greek word isn't used in the manner of one seizing or grabbing, as one who is hungry might grab up the fork in anticipation of eating. Nor does the word, in this usage, show a specific and particular action needed by the person who is the recipient - such as one might "jump at the chance, seize the day, reach for the golden ring,..."

The word is used in such a way as to indicate something gotten hold of, caught. For instance: When one "catches a cold" it isn't so much sought as given/bestowed. When one being unaware is bitten .

A person doesn't want the cold, but receives it despite even engaging in avoidance techniques (such as what Saul/Paul did before conversion). One may avoid being bitten, but may be amazed when such an event occurs.

John's statement of "receive" is that as many as do receive are given light.

Be careful - the light isn't given and then the receiving is done, but the receiving is first - then the light.

Before the light was turned on, Genesis says God moved about. The source of the light was present.

The same occurs in John's statement. Those that God moves upon (who are the recipients) are given light.

Throughout Scriptures, it is God that is the initiator - humankind receive.

 

[Winman]

Bob...we have not interacted that often.....so I need you to explain exactly how this works...in a bit of detail....

Jesus is lifted up on the cross....at that very moment there is a man in the rainforrest.....a man in alaska.....siberia..... and central america....tell me how they are drawn to Jesus????? How about men who died before the cross, how does this lifting up...draw them exactly???
Do they hear a voice? Does God send a message in their own language to them.....you and others post this verse as if you think you understand it....so explain what it means in your world!!!

This is actually a valid question that deserves as answer. And I believe the scripture itself gives us this answer.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

What death did Jesus die? Jesus died for our sins, for our iniquities, this is what draws a man to Jesus. Every man dies, but this does not draw us to that man. But when we learn that Jesus was the sinless Son of God who came into the world to personally die for us who deserved damnation, this is what draws a man to Jesus.

That said, a man does need to hear of the cross to be drawn. Just as Paul asked how can a man believe in him of whom he has not heard (Rom 10:14), no man can be drawn to Jesus unless he has heard of him.

This is why we are commanded to go out and TEACH all nations. It is the knowledge of Jesus that draws a man to him, and enables a man to believe in him.

Every man who hears the gospel is drawn to Jesus even if he does not believe. Many thousands of people can tell you they fought and resisted coming to Jesus, sometimes for many years. But the love of Jesus convicted them, pricked them to the heart, and one day they could resist no more and came to him.

Jesus is also comparing himself to the brazen serpent raised on a pole by Moses. Those men bitten by the fiery serpents looked to this serpent on a pole and were saved, likewise, men who are bitten by sin and dying look to Jesus and live.

You can imagine that the Jews in the wilderness covered a large area, some estimate there were several millions of them. Even though this serpent on the pole was held up for all to see, it certainly must have been carried to all parts of the camp before all men could see it.

So, we do have to go out and preach the gospel, but every man who hears of Jesus dying on the cross is certainly drawn to Jesus, even if they choose not to believe.

 

[Skandelon]

Yet once again you ignore the OP....that is all you can attempt to do.

Looking at another passage which addresses the same subject (of light being shown in the darkness) to better understand and thus interpret the text is called "Hermeneutics" and to label that as being off topic, or not in response to the OP, is shortsighted, at best.

 

[Winman]

Winman

Genius insight Winman.....in Gen 1:3 men were not created yet to "see" anything much less..."light"

Look who's talking. :laugh:

The light in Gen 1:3 is physical light that generally speaking ALL MEN can see this light. Even most blind persons can see light and shadows to a degree. All men (generally) are born with the ability to see this light, not just a few.

And if no man was around to see it, what would that argue? That God reveals the gospel to no one???

Great argument.

This is an example why you get every verse wrong.

Completely wrong again...

You would utterly fail Debate 101. Simply saying someone is wrong is not a valid argument.

2 Cor 4:6 IS comparing itself to Gen 1:3. Again, this was physical light which all men (generally) have the God-given ability to see.

So, this verse refutes the idea that the gospel is revealed only to a few elect persons.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[Skandelon]

light given them.

First item:

There is a difference between rejecting and avoiding.

Reject has the connotation of "dismiss" and "refuse."

Avoid has "shunning" and "invalidate."

To those that dwell in darkness, light isn't welcome - it is shunned.

Think of a person who is snug asleep and suddenly a bright light is shown in their face? Do they "reject" the light, or do they "avoid" the light?

That person avoids the light; takes action to "cover" or turn away from the light - shun the light. Often that person does not comprehend, nor are they aware of the source of the light, but are too busy being like mice scurrying away from the glare into the shadows and hidden places. Such would invalidate and relegate the light as disgusting.

The same is with the opening of John.

"The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

The verse just says that they didn't comprehend it. So, what would they need if they didn't understand it? They need more revelation. They need more understanding. They need someone to explain it to them clearly. So, what does God do? He sends his Son, the WORD. He sends Apostles, inspired by the Word. He sends scriptures, inspired writings of the Word. He commissions his Bride, to spread the Word to every creature.

Is that not enough? Apparently not for the Calvinist. God had to 'zap' them with a new will, which begs the question as to why bother with all the other stuff above. Why not just "zap" the first group of mankind back in Noah's day and make them want to believe and obey instead of getting upset with them for doing what they were born to do and drowning them? (when I say "zap" I'm referring to the effectual work of regeneration in case you didn't pick up on that)

Those who are familiar, comfortable, and understanding of the darkness - avoiding the light rather than rejecting the light - they prefer darkness and do not even comprehend light. The dark pushes against the light, desires to overcome the light, and makes certain that light does not enlighten all and every.

I don't disagree. Many do choose to hide from the light, and thus they grow calloused over time to it. That is the biblical condition of 'hardening' and its not something people are born with, but its something they BECOME after much rebellion. To assume that hardening is inevitable in light of the Holy Spirit's work to bring discernment through His chosen means of revelation is not a biblically supported, IMO.

John's statement of "receive" is that as many as do receive are given light.

I don't think I have an issue with your second point, if I'm understanding you correctly. You seem to be talking about man's reception of revelation or light. That is what election is really all about IMO. God elects to send the light first to the Jew (i.e. they are 'in the vine'), and then he cuts them off and grafts in the Gentiles (meaning he sends them the light.) So, in that sense the Jews 'received' the light (though for the most part they rejected it) and then the Gentiles received it (Acts 28:28).

 

[Winman]

Looking at another passage which addresses the same subject (of light being shown in the darkness) to better understand and thus interpret the text is called "Hermeneutics" and to label that as being off topic, or not in response to the OP, is shortsighted, at best.

Not according to Biblicist and Iconoclast, they say that is going out of context.

This is the same fellow who argues that Isa 48:8 that is specifically addressed to the house of Jacob and Israel is teaching that all men are born sinners. :laugh:

Isa 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness

It's only pulling scripture out of context when YOU do it. :laugh: