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zipping along today?

I am not certain that comprehension as is commonly used (understanding with the ability to apply what is comprehended to various unrelated problems) is what John is using.


Imo, the comprehension level (as some would commonly define it) wasn't the problem when John wrote:

4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it
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If I comprehend the word "comprehend" as used by John, it conveys the meaning: that one may seize, grab on too, attain, apprehend, achieve. It would indicate more of the darkness being a friend to the light, or accepting the light in partnership. That the light would become a part of darkness so that there was a blending and no distinction. That in some manner the darkness could become light.

"Comprehension" isn't always in the manner of intellectual, but the character behind the intellectual. A child of high intellect does not learn what they do not pay attention to learn.

As it applies then to the verses, the intellect (ability to grasp and hold) is available, the teaching (enlightenment) is done, but there is no blending, no partnership, no friendship, no innate ability to attain or become light.



The next verses:

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

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Perhaps a good example of the "receive" I am attempting to apply might be illustrated in what the Lord said when He breathed on the Apostles and said - "...Receive the Holy Spirit..." (John 20:22)

There are those who would consider "accept" and "receive" as synonymous.

However, it does seem that taking "receive" as being able to seize and grab, especially out of some innate self-energized volition, is a rendering not supported by the Scriptures in John 1.

Glad you don't disagree!

I don't know that "many" but "all" choose to shun the light (all have sinned).

Perhaps the one area that would indicate support for your thinking of the children is Christ's statement concerning them - "such is the kingdom of heaven."

The phrase "To assume that hardening is inevitable..." might present a bit of a problem in the sense that we are "born in sin," (all except Winman) and sin is sort of a catalyst to generate hardening. How quickly and how much is indeterminate.

I do contemplate on this at times from the perspective of the work of conviction.

Is it not true that God brings great conviction and at times the slightest "nudge?"

Perhaps that may be an indicator of the level of hardening.

Good for us. I like being in agreement "as is in me."

Paul quotes Isaiah (Acts 28:26-27) and for the most part this is a troubling passage for the non-cal folks.

It shows two perspectives: 1) That God is highly selective and manipulative when it comes to who and when salvation occurs. 2) That it is the heart of people (from their core) to shun, avoid, stop the ears... but God is available and willing to heal, though it is self evident that the people will not come.

We do read that they do come, but that happens at a specific time because God has performed that highly selective and manipulative work to bring about the salvation.

I would have loved to have been "eavesdropping" on those Jewish leaders arguing with each other on the way home that evening.

 

I suppose in your desire to refute, you might have missed that actually the verse doesn't do what you suggest above.

The 2 Cor. verse is speaking specifically and ONLY to believers:

For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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Now Winman, you are grasping at what may not be supporting your thinking.

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
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Is the "us" all men?

The only way to apply verse 11 without the context as applicable to the whole of humankind is to restrict it to the blood sacrifice - which I agree - and is supported by what John says, "Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Every time in the NT that the word "propitiation" is used, it speaks of it being applicable to the whole world. Propitiation is specific to the work of the cross - the blood sacrifice paying the sin debt in full.

What then comes of this verse that you used?

It must be read in Context - the "us" cannot be left out.

That although propitiation has been made for all men, it remains that only the redeemed are reconciled to God. That such reconciliation puts us on a track of denial, life, hope, and purity.

The verse DOES NOT offer reconciliation to all men.

 

Winman

Winman....although i am critical of virtually everything you post....You actually got this one correct.

Yes Jesus died a covenant death for all the Father gave Him.They are scattered all over the world.The gospel goes forth.The elect respond savingly.

Jesus died to save sinners...we all qualify as sinners...

So you agree that it does not mean every person ever born:thumbs:

we proclam truth.

the general call...the saving call:thumbsup:

correct...everyone believing will be saved

 

Again, this verse does allude to Gen 1:3 which is speaking of physical light which can be seen by ALL men, not just a select few. Otherwise it is a poor analogy.

Well, it only teaches those that learn. The scriptures show God's frustration with men who reject his teaching and hate knowledge.

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

If men are not taught by God, it is their own fault. God has called out to them, he has stretched out his hand, but they turned away and would not listen, they hated knowledge.

So, God did not pass these men over as Reformed theology teaches. This scripture absolutely refutes Irresistible Grace.

No, Jesus died for all men. And God has revealed the grace that brings salvation to all men, but men are responsible to listen and learn, and to come to God.

 

The verses address different things.2cor4....gospel light

jn1.....men in darkness.....Jesus the light

 

Considering that both are the WORD...the gospel being the good news of Jesus, I still don't see how any one could conclude one wasn't related to the other.

 

Imagine that.

Actually yes. The Father gave those whom in his foreknowledge he foresaw would believe. And these elect of course respond favorably. This is a true statement.

YES, and ALL MEN are sinners.

No, Jesus died for every man that was ever born, but a man has to hear to believe.

I am not sure how God deals with those persons who have never heard the gospel, other than scripture that says those who do not know their master's will but do things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. But I am not sure exactly what this means.

You were doing good until now. There is no such thing as a powerless "general" call and a separate powerful "effectual" call. That is a false man-made doctrine without one word of support in scripture.

God's word only effectually works in those that believe.

1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

An analogy; Suppose you accidently drank poison and rush to the doctor. The doctor gives you a pill which is an antidote.

That pill is powerful and can heal you and prevent you from dying, but you must take that pill for it to be effective.

This is how God's word works as well, God's word is ALWAYS powerful, but you must believe God's word before it effectually works in you.

Correct, because God's word only effectually works in those that believe.

You just may get it one day. :thumbs:

 

Winman

I posted;
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Winman

Genius insight Winman.....in Gen 1:3 men were not created yet to "see" anything much less..."light"

you say-

You still...are in darkness on this verse:laugh:

hint...gen 1:3 speaks about God...and His supernatural creation...it is not talking about men.....can you see this?

Men have nothing to do with this verse.God did something...men were not here yet...when God did this.

Again...Gen 1:3 is not speaking of your eiegesis.

You argue with yourself.

not interested in that class

when it comes to your posts....it is a statement of fact.

quite the contrary.

 

I agree that light and all of creation was supernatural. The trees were made supernaturally, and I have the ability to pick an apple off of one of them and eat it, I do not have to be zapped to do this.

The light in Gen 1:3 is physical light and all men with the exception of a very few are born with the natural ability to see this light.

Likewise, all men are able to understand the gospel if they will only listen and learn.

Agreed. And the gospel is supernatural, men did not invent it. But all men can understand it if they choose to listen to it and learn from it.

The light in Gen 1:3 was created supernaturally, and all men have the innate ability to see it, unless they purposely close their eyes.

Actually, this was your argument, I am refuting it. Yes, light was created supernaturally, but all men can see this light.

That's funny coming from a Calvinist. You believe man can only respond to the gospel if God regenerates him, and then believe God tells you to preach the gospel to a man God has no intention of regenerating. That would be God arguing with himself, a house divided against itself. :laugh:

You should give that some thought.

Well, it's probably for the best, because from what I've seen so far, you would fail miserably.

Again, you would fail that class miserably.

No, the light in Gen 1:3 can be seen by all men.

 

Actually, the verse is even more specific. For it states God did the speaking, and the results, is the same as the one who shines the light in the hearts of the redeemed.

In contrast to YOUR thinking, Christ established believers as the light to the world:

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

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Perhaps you are confusing the light of Gen 1:3 with other than the enlightening of the Decalogue that God has imprinted into every humankind's heart with that of the light the redeemed enjoy.

No body is giving any person an excuse for not learning what is taught by God.

I ask the simple question: Is the "us" all men?

I followed that question with a statement of how the verse you gave could be viewed as you desired if and only if it is strictly held speaking of propitiation. But cannot be applicable as you desire and still hold on to the contextual "us."

See below.

You are mixing together two different works of Christ.

You are correct - Jesus died for all men - that is His BLOOD paid sufficiently for the sin debt (for the wages of sin...) for the whole world. This is what 1 John 2 clearly states and is held consistently in Scriptures.

HOWEVER, what you are putting into the mix - Grace.

At no time does the Scriptures state that such unmerited favor is REVEALED to all men. In fact, John 12 in quoting Isaiah 53 shows how that GOD blinds the eyes and heart.

Throughout Scriptures, God has had to purposely and directly open the eyes of BOTH the heart and understanding to bring folks into reconciliation.

CERTAINLY, humankind are responsible to listen, learn, and come to God.


But there is that interesting verse that stops them dead in their tracks.

19This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.


How then is salvation revealed to all men as you desire - especially when they are in love with darkness.

Perhaps you desire a "fair" God, one who plays by humankind rules.

But God doesn't work by those conditions.

"I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."

 

I don't see how this helps your argument, Jesus said let your light shine before men, "that they may see your good works". Again, this revelation is being made to all men, not just a select few. This scripture refutes the Calvinist view.

The "us" includes all men who listen and learn. Those who do not listen and learn cannot be taught.

You could have the teacher of the year directing your class, but if you do not pay attention, he cannot teach you. Teaching involves active participation by both the teacher and the student.

Actually, Titus 2:11 does say the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Some men paid attention and learned, some did not.

Yes, but man had to listen and learn.

Of course. If learning could be forced on students, every student would make the honor roll. Teaching doesn't work like that, the student also has to apply himself.

This monergistic view of teaching is a complete fiction. I have already showed you scripture in Proverbs where God is clearly outraged and frustrated that men will not listen to him and reject his teaching.

How can you ignore such obvious scripture???

It doesn't say they don't see the light, it says they don't come to the light.

This doesn't prove your view at all. Some men hate God and love sin, while other men love truth and come to the light.

What are you saying? That you prefer an unjust God?

And God has determined to have mercy on those persons who listen and learn from him and trust in Jesus Christ as he commanded. Nothing complicated about this at all.

 

The verse says "men" - not all men.

The verse says "your" (meaning the disciples and by extension believers) good works, not that of God.

The light you desire of salvation to all men is just not found in Scriptures.

Actually, the "us" does NOT include all men who listen and learn. No matter the desire to read that into the text, the "us" is specific to believers - not unbelievers.

But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; 7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, 8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
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As "all men" can see, the use of "all men" has to do with station in life, and not "all men" as you desire. That the "all men" is the "us" who are from the "all men" of every station, situation, level of living, female, young, old. ...

The passage is discussing the conduct of life that the BELIEVERS are to engage - not unbelievers.

And, there is no mention of "all men" listening and learning in the above verses.

 

Only if you ignore Titus 2:11 that says the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

The word "us" in the next verse actually refutes your view, because the Holy Spirit could have easily said "us" in verse 11, but said "all men".

This is a common argument in Calvinism, only simple minded folks are fooled. :thumbs:

Then you do not know your scriptures, Jesus said "every man" who hears and learns from the Father comes to him.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again, the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to "all men". The Holy Spirit could have easily said, "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to us" if he wanted to.

Calvinists actually imply that God is not able to properly express himself, and that God is dependent upon Calvinists to properly explain what he meant to say.

Not only does that insult any intelligent person who can easily see this is a complete fallacy, but it is a tremendous insult to God himself.

You guys actually think you are smarter than God. And you think all the non Calvinists are total idiots.

Talk about hubris.

 

What was it that Paul stated to Timothy in his 2nd letter 3rd chapter?

But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.
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Such were the same condition as the religious righteous in the time of the Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry.

Remember, He remarked when aged Nicodemus came to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"

Learning and knowledge does not equal understanding and application.

I have taught many who could repeat learning and knowledge but had no true understanding.

Winman, the light of John 1 is the light that enlightens all men - it is the decalogue light, not the light given in Matthew 4.

12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been taken into custody, He withdrew into Galilee; 13 and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali. 14 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:

15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 “The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great Light,
And those who were sitting in the land and shadow of death,
Upon them a Light dawned.”

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Where is this light to "all men" you post about? Not until Christ actually went to Zebulun and Naphtali was the light seen by those people.

I haven't seen a place in Scriptures that relate that a general salvation light is disseminated to "all men."

It certainly wasn't the case at Paul's conversion in the middle of the road.

The Scriptures state:

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
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Those Scriptures do not agree with your statement above.

 

Agedman, I am not going to keep arguing with you. Read Proverbs 1, God is calling to men, reaching out to them, trying to teach these men, but they rejected his counsel and knowledge.

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

A person has to throw away their reason to believe Calvinism. Calvinism has God calling out to persons to repent whom he knows have no ability to repent, and whom he has no intention of regenerating.

That would be like your neighbor coming out and calling for his dog every day, when everybody on your street knows he does not own a dog.

That is insane.

 

You forgot to put a link for your new thread on the Religious Blind.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2056943#post2056943

You're welcome.

Amateur

 

Cals often reference Cor 2:14 to insist that mankind needs spiritual discernment to understand the things of God, right?

Is not the very letter Paul is writing a discernment of the Spirit for the Corinthian church? Isn't Paul, by writing out the spiritually inspired truth, explaining the meat of the Word to the carnal brethren in that church?

My point is that sometimes I think we miss the forest for the trees when it comes to God's provisions. He used Apostles, men inspired to write in human language the deep mysteries of the kingdom, in order to help mankind UNDERSTAND. The scriptures ARE a powerful work of the Holy Spirit. The proclamation of the Holy Spirit inspired truth by Holy Spirit indwelled men of God IS A POWERFUL WORK OF THE SPIRIT which brings discernment or understanding. Prior to the coming of these means (Jesus, Scripture, Church, Apostles, etc) this kind of understanding wouldn't have been available (how could they hear and believe without someone explaining it to them?). That is why John says the light wasn't comprehended...the Light needed to be explained...and it has been by the very words we are attempting to dissect right now.

I don't think so. In fact this passage seems to tell us exactly what man is naturally able to do if they have not 'become calloused' something the Calvinistic teaching of Total Inability would contradict.

 

You have hit the nail right on the head Skan, God does not zap people with spiritual knowledge, he uses the Spirit inspired word of God and Spirit filled teachers and preachers to reveal spiritual truths to both regenerate and unregenerate men.

Unfortunately, many are looking for a magical and mystical revelation.

 

True, and really, the inspiration of scripture is "magical and mystical" enough as it is, do we really need to add to that a irresistible inward zapping of the human will that scripture never once expounds upon?