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The real TR

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Introduction to:
THE NEW TESTAMENT IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK ACCORDING TO THE BYZANTINE / MAJORITY TEXTFORM

THE TEXT REVISED BY MAURICE A. ROBINSON AND WILLIAM G. PIERPONT

INTRODUCTION AND APPENDIX BY THE EDITORS

EXECUTIVE EDITOR WILLIAM DAVID MCBRAYER

THE ORIGINAL WORD PUBLISHERS ATLANTA 1991


Widespread conflation (the combining of readings from two or more source documents) was claimed to have prevailed among Byzantine-era manuscripts, but was claimed not to occur in early Alexandrian or Western documents. This argument supposedly showed the Byzantine Textform to be "late," having been created by combining readings of the "early" Western and Alexandrian texttypes. Hort provided a mere eight examples to "demonstrate" this point, and then proclaimed this state of affairs "never" to be reversed.

Conflation is not exclusive to the Byzantine-era manuscripts; the scribes of Alexandrian and Western manuscripts conflate as much or more than what has been imputed to Byzantine-era scribal habits.[16] (Hort argued that only the Byzantine manuscripts practiced conflation, and that manuscripts of supposedly "earlier" texttypes never followed this practice).

Hort claimed a total absence of "distinctively Byzantine" readings from manuscripts, versions, and Church Fathers before the mid-fourth century AD. Hort considered this argument to "prove" that readings found exclusively in later Byzantine manuscripts had no known early support and therefore absolutely could not have existed prior to AD 350. Hort was extremely adamant on this point.

Over 150 "distinctively Byzantine" readings have been found in papyrus manuscripts predating AD 350, even though totally unattested by versions and Fathers.[17] (Hort emphatically maintained that, were this principle overthrown, his entire hypothesis would have been demolished).

The origin of the Byzantine Textform was alleged to be the result of an authorized revision in the fourth century. Hort used this argument to demonstrate how the Byzantine Textform could have been a "later" development, yet suddenly overwhelm the entire Greek-speaking church from AD 350 onward.

There never has been a shred of evidence that an "authorized revision" of the Greek New Testament text ever occurred, and the Greek church itself has never claimed such. (Hort maintained that, apart from such formally-authorized revision, there would be no way possible to explain the rise and dominance of the Byzantine Textform).

[Edited by poster for continuity]
http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/RobPier.html
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
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Over 150 "distinctively Byzantine" readings have been found in papyrus manuscripts predating AD 350,
Mere "readings" do not a text-type make.
even though totally unattested by versions and Fathers.[17]
Yes, there aren't many examples of the Byzantine text type among early Church Fathers.
Hort used this argument to demonstrate how the Byzantine Textform could have been a "later" development, yet suddenly overwhelm the entire Greek-speaking church from AD 350 onward.
There was no "sudden" overwhelming going on. The Byzantine text-type didn't become the majority-text until the 9th century. It developed incrementally.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Mere "readings" do not a text-type make.
Meaningless cliches do not an intelligent argument make. What do you think makes a textform if not readings?
Yes, there aren't many examples of the Byzantine text type among early Church Fathers.
Yes, that is what Dr. Robinson said.
There was no "sudden" overwhelming going on. The Byzantine text-type didn't become the majority-text until the 9th century. It developed incrementally.
Read it again. The "Greek-speaking church." What textform do you think was being copied in Byzantine scriptoriums?
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
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On the contrary Steve, the words in brackets were added by zealous scribes who wanted to embellish what they thought were weaknesses in the exemplar. That is the obvious explanation. That wanted to massage the message. They were not evil to do so --just unethical.
Proof, dear boy! Proof! Even some evidence would be nice, but mere assertions do not persuade me at all. As an unconverted youngster I read books about this stuff as it applied to secular authors, and it didn't persuade me then.

Until you give me hard facts, I go with 95-98% of the extant texts. It makes much more sense.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mr Cassidy,
Should not one sentence in your post read:

Hort claimed a total absence of "distinctively Byzantine" readings from manuscripts, versions, and Church Fathers before the mid-fourth century AD. Hort considered this argument to "prove" that readings found exclusively in later Byzantine manuscripts had no known early support and therefore absolutely could not have existed prior to AD 350. Hort was extremely adamant on this point.
Over 150 "distinctively Byzantine" readings have been found in papyrus manuscripts predating AD 350. Even though totally unattested by versions and Fathers.[17] Hort emphatically maintained that, were this principle overthrown, his entire hypothesis would have been demolished.
John (Dean) Burgon published evidence showing that there was more support for the Byzantine Text among the Early Church Fathers than for the Alexandrian (J.W. Burgon, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels). Although his work is obviously somewhat out-of-date now with the discovery of new manuscripts and fragments, Burgon's scholarship is remarkable.
 

stilllearning

Active Member
Hi John of Japan (Just a quick note before I go to work)

I appreciate your candor, when you said.......
“I have a problem with saying that the critical Greek text is not the Word of God. Consider. I'll not take time to look up the figures right now, but if there is a 5% difference in the texts, then a critical Greek text is 95% the Word of God, is it not? Thus, it really bothers me when folk say that any Greek text or mss is not the Word of God. If the critical text is not the Word of God, then I did not have the Word of God for the 33 years I served God in Japan, since all we had in Japanese was a Bible from the critical texts.
I have read through the NIV, and compared much of it to the Greek. I think it has many errors of translation, and I do not use it, teach or preach from it, or recommend it. But I will not say it was from Satan or any such thing. It is the Word of God to the exact extent it correctly translates the originals, whatever that extent may be. So when the NIV says "God is love" in 1 John 4:8, exactly like the KJV, how is the NIV not the Word of God?”
Although I only use the KJB, I have never told anyone that other versions were not the Bible. And the things you said in these two paragraphs, helps me to understand why the Lord led me in this direction. Just as we “can’t keep God in a box”, maybe God’s Word, should be looked at, in the same way.

Thanks for your help, see you later.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Mr Cassidy,
Should not one sentence in your post read:


John (Dean) Burgon published evidence showing that there was more support for the Byzantine Text among the Early Church Fathers than for the Alexandrian (J.W. Burgon, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels). Although his work is obviously somewhat out-of-date now with the discovery of new manuscripts and fragments, Burgon's scholarship is remarkable.
Many Byzantine priority/majority text/textus receptus advocates rely on Dean John W. Burgon’s massive collation of patristic evidence a century ago. Dean Burgon found over 85,000 quotations in the early fathers that he said used the Byzantine text. But Burgon used uncritical and late texts (copied in the middle ages) and made a number of assumptions about the fathers when they quoted the NT (for example, Ignatius and Irenaeus often wrote, ‘As the Lord said,’ without giving the book name. Burgon found the wording in Mark that was Byzantine—though the wording in Matthew was Alexandrian—and he then assumed that the patristic writer was quoting from Mark). This issue has been raised by numerous scholars over the years. Gordon D. Fee, who is probably the best patristic text-critical scholar alive today, has said that there are NO ante-Nicene fathers who quoted the Byzantine text. As well, there is a recent article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society that deals just with Burgon’s approach. The author found that it was terribly faulty.

https://bible.org/question/claim-co...ings-church-fathers-show-they-are-support-byz
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
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Many Byzantine priority/majority text/textus receptus advocates rely on Dean John W. Burgon’s massive collation of patristic evidence a century ago. Dean Burgon found over 85,000 quotations in the early fathers that he said used the Byzantine text. But Burgon used uncritical and late texts (copied in the middle ages) and made a number of assumptions about the fathers when they quoted the NT (for example, Ignatius and Irenaeus often wrote, ‘As the Lord said,’ without giving the book name. Burgon found the wording in Mark that was Byzantine—though the wording in Matthew was Alexandrian—and he then assumed that the patristic writer was quoting from Mark). This issue has been raised by numerous scholars over the years. Gordon D. Fee, who is probably the best patristic text-critical scholar alive today, has said that there are NO ante-Nicene fathers who quoted the Byzantine text. As well, there is a recent article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society that deals just with Burgon’s approach. The author found that it was terribly faulty.
Indeed.
Extracts follow:

"The earliest Syriac translation that is Byzantine is the Harclean version of the sixth century."

"...it is significant that the more research is done on the versions and fathers the less they look Byzantine." [He noted that the evidence is overwhelming.]

"...the great mass of evidence found in the last century largely confirms [Hort's] general direction and has certainly done nothing to give comfort to KJV advocates."
 

Rippon

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"In all this material I have found one invariable:A good critical edition of a father's text, or the discovery of early MSS, always moves the father's text of the NT away from the TR and closer to the text of our modern critical editions."

"The idea that the majority text of the middle Ages reflected the 'broad stream' of the transmission of the text going back to the autographs is simply a myth." (p.29)

"By the fourth century...there had emerged the trained Christian scribe, whose work was being produced in scriptura. This began in Alexandria, as the Egyptian MSS bear abundant witness, and probably was thoroughgoing after Constantine." (p.29)
 

Rippon

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1 Cor. 6:20. 'For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body [and in your spirit which are God's]'
I'll be quoting from Gordon D. Fee and Mark L. Strauss in their book How To Choose A Translation For All Its Worth

"[It] is probably the result of the ascetic worldview that emerged in the church in the third and fouth centuries. At this point in the letter Paul has been arguing against the practice of Corinthian men going to prostitutes, which they apparently justified with the belief that what happened in the body did not really affect one's spiritual nature. At the end of his argument, Paul concludes: 'therefore honor God with your bodies' (TNIV). By the fourth century scribes had added: 'and with your spirit, which belongs to God.' It is not that this is untrue; rather it is irrelevant to the present argument, which has to do with men using their bodies for sexually immoral purposes." (p.117)
John 7:39b. '.......For the [Holy] Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.'
"Similarly, in John 7:39, John interprets something Jesus had just said in verse 37. John explains that what Jesus said was pointing to the future coming of the spirit. But John concluded with the abbreviated clause, 'for the Spirit was not yet.' since this could be understood to mean that the Spirit did not yet exist, early scribes, besides often adding the word 'Holy' to 'Spirit,' made two independent changes to make sure John was not misunderstood. One set of manuscripts has, 'the Spirit was not yet on them,' while others have, 'the Spirit had not yet been given.' " (pgs.117,118)
 

Martin Marprelate

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I'll be quoting from Gordon D. Fee and Mark L. Strauss in their book How To Choose A Translation For All Its Worth

"[It] is probably the result of the ascetic worldview that emerged in the church in the third and fouth centuries. At this point in the letter Paul has been arguing against the practice of Corinthian men going to prostitutes, which they apparently justified with the belief that what happened in the body did not really affect one's spiritual nature. At the end of his argument, Paul concludes: 'therefore honor God with your bodies' (TNIV). By the fourth century scribes had added: 'and with your spirit, which belongs to God.' It is not that this is untrue; rather it is irrelevant to the present argument, which has to do with men using their bodies for sexually immoral purposes." (p.117)

"Similarly, in John 7:39, John interprets something Jesus had just said in verse 37. John explains that what Jesus said was pointing to the future coming of the spirit. But John concluded with the abbreviated clause, 'for the Spirit was not yet.' since this could be understood to mean that the Spirit did not yet exist, early scribes, besides often adding the word 'Holy' to 'Spirit,' made two independent changes to make sure John was not misunderstood. One set of manuscripts has, 'the Spirit was not yet on them,' while others have, 'the Spirit had not yet been given.' " (pgs.117,118)
Once again, no evidence. Just an assertion that these things happened. And if it were as they say, how very strange that a scribal embellishment should become so widespread as to dominate the world of Greek manuscripts so completely.
 

Rippon

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Meaningless cliches do not an intelligent argument make. What do you think makes a textform if not readings?
My cliche, as you put it, is rooted in truth. The following is taken from Stanley E. Porter's book How We Got The New Testament

"Harry Sturtz has argued there are Byzantine readings in early papyri; however, this argument does not prove a Byzantine text-type, but only that there are readings in the papyri that are found in Byzantine texts --they are virtually always found in other text-types as well." (pgs.54,55)
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
My cliche, as you put it, is rooted in truth. The following is taken from Stanley E. Porter's book How We Got The New Testament

"Harry Sturtz has argued there are Byzantine readings in early papyri; however, this argument does not prove a Byzantine text-type, but only that there are readings in the papyri that are found in Byzantine texts --they are virtually always found in other text-types as well." (pgs.54,55)

If at Luke 1:5 the one texform reads ᾿Εγένετο ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ῾Ηρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως τῆς ᾿Ιουδαίας ἱερεύς τις ὀνόματι Ζαχαρίας ἐξ ἐφημερίας ᾿Αβιά, καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν θυγατέρων ᾿Ααρών καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς ᾿Ελισάβετ and the other textform reads ᾿Εγένετο ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ῾Ηρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως τῆς ᾿Ιουδαίας ἱερεύς τις ὀνόματι Ζαχαρίας ἐξ ἐφημερίας ᾿Αβιά, καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν θυγατέρων ᾿Ααρών καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς ᾿Ελισάβετ, which textform does the verse represent? Byzantine or Alexandrian?
 

Rippon

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A single verse doesn't cut it.

"Scattered readings do not a text-form make." Deacon 2/11/2007
 

Rippon

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Once again, no evidence.
Sufficient enough to satisfy an open-minded person.
Just an assertion that these things happened. And if it were as they say, how very strange that a scribal embellishment should become so widespread as to dominate the world of Greek manuscripts so completely.
Leave it to the Byzantine tradition.

From Wikipedia I found just a few works from the Alexandrian text-type from a later period.

Codex Regius 8th century
Minuscule 9th century
Minuscule 81 1044 AD
Minuscule 892 9th century

The scribes from the Byzantine tradition heavily-out-produced any scribe of the Alexandrian way.
I was surprised that any Alexandrian works were even made after 642 AD.
 
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TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
A single verse doesn't cut it.

"Scattered readings do not a text-form make." Deacon 2/11/2007

In other words you don't have a clue. You are in way over your head and can only parrot what others have said.

I thought so. <roll eyes>
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
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In other words you don't have a clue. You are in way over your head and can only parrot what others have said.

I thought so. <roll eyes>
So, if you take issue with what I said, you must believe the reverse.

You must believe that a single verse establishes a text-type.

Or scatted readings establish a text-type.

You have to make your position clear. Right now it's kind of fuzzy.

TC: less sarcasm from you would be appreciated.
 
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