The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sure, you are free to do anything you want. If you want to join the discussion, fine, then present scripture to support your view.

But just saying "I'm not going to discuss anything or change my opinion" is pretty useless, why don't you leave the thread open to those who are interested in presenting and also viewing other's views?

I will look at any Calvinist scripture they want to present as evidence, and I will try to address most of it if I have time.

Look, if Calvinists could show me "convincing" scripture that supports their view, then I would believe it. I have never seen this so far. What I see is a lot of reading into scripture what it does not say.

Lets be honest....If God himself provided you scripture to support Calvinistic Doctrine.....you wouldnt believe it so quit blowing smoke up peoples skirts OK? You have an agenda & its painfully evident your trying to push it.

& gee thanks for allowing me the opportunity to post.....thats really nice! :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Anyway this is Baptist Bible Study & Theology ....not discussion. Start a bible study.

 

[TCassidy]

I agree with Mexdeaf. The problem is the sinful nature of mankind. People are so self-centered that they believe they can, somehow, add something to the grace of God to allow them to merit salvation. They refuse to believe they are as sinful and at enmity with and estranged from God as the worst of lost people. The refuse to believe that God, and God alone, can lift the fallen, forgive the sinner, and bring him/her to Himself for salvation. Their sinful pride forces them to think there is something good in them that will come to Christ on its own merits.

 

[MorseOp]

I was typing on my smart phone earlier, so I couldn't express myself properly.

If a church is orientated to either Calvinism or Arminianism then the opposing view really does not have much of a chance. In fact, it almost always becomes a divisive issue. More harm is done by theological in-fighting then if the church remained as is. Let me give two examples:

In early 1990's the church that planted the church I currently minister at had a group of Calvinists who banded together to try to force their agenda. My former church was staunchly Arminian. This small minority of Calvinists knew this. They had no right to try to divide the church. Instead of doing the honorable thing (leaving peacefully) they sought to divide and conquer. They forced a members meeting in order to push the issue. Thankfully they were defeated and eventually left the church. The result? Calvinism as a whole was seen as a cult by many; just as bad as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. It was very sad.

Around the same time a pastor friend of mine in northern New Jersey had a near mutiny on his hands. The church was solidly Reformed. Two of the elders joined together to revolt against the church's theological position. They won over about a third of the membership. The result was six months of disharmony and ruined relationships. The elders were eventually removed from office. They took most of the rebellious members along with them and joined another church.

Two examples of bad behavior by a minority of people. It would have been better if both groups would have left honorably in order to maintain unity within the body.

Maybe there are churches where Calvinists and Arminians can co-exist. I would not consider them the norm. One of the other positions is going to occupy the pulpit. If the group that holds to the other position can tolerate teaching from the opposing view point, I suppose they could worship together. I could not exist in that environment. I could not abide Arminian theology in any way, shape, or form. I have Arminian friends from bible college days who feel the same about Calvinism. They could not sit under a Calvinist teacher for a minute. If your convictions are that strong is it not better to separate for the sake of the Gospel?[/QUOTE]

I will take it a step further....it was not cool to get together in the first place. BTW....Where is this church in NJ (Not Al Martin in Montville?!?)

No. Not Trinity. I'm not at liberty to name the church. The incident hurt a lot of people and the pastor would rather let that wound heal over time.

 

[OldRegular]

What specifically is 'faulty.' Make your argument? Are you suggesting that if Calvinism is right that we are Arminians by our own libertarian free will?

You are implying that all things, all thoughts are predestined. I don't believe that. I don't believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace teach that.

I had a thread earlier in which I stated:

Fellow Saints you are chosen, called, justified, and one day will be glorified, whether you believe it or not, whether you like it or not!

Some took exception to the way I stated my belief about Salvation. Whether you believe in libertarian free will or not is irrelevant if the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace are true!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is some reliant scripture (perfect for a Bible Study)

Matthew 13:24-30 (King James Version)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[Winman]

Lets be honest....If God himself provided you scripture to support Calvinistic Doctrine.....you wouldnt believe it so quit blowing smoke up peoples skirts OK? You have an agenda & its painfully evident your trying to push it.

& gee thanks for allowing me the opportunity to post.....thats really nice! :laugh:

That is not true. I have changed my views over the years. I once believed and even taught my children Original Sin. I believed it because that is what I had been taught, and it seemed to fit reality. It explained why everyone sins, including little children.

But over the years as I read and studied scripture I saw much scripture that simply did not mesh with Original Sin, in fact it seemed to utterly contradict it. The 15th chapter of Luke probably had a greater influence on me than any other scripture. I noted that in all three stories that Jesus told, no one was originally lost. The shepherd had 100 sheep, one went out and became lost, the shepherd searched and recovered it. Then Jesus explained this one lost sheep was a sinner who repented. He then told a story of a woman with ten silver coins, she lost one, searched and recovered it. Again, Jesus explained this was a lost sinner who repented. But the coin was not originally lost.

Then Jesus told the story of the prodigal son. He was not lost originally, he was at home with his father. He willingly left home and went out in sin and became lost. When he repented, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.

Now, you may read right over that word "again", but I cannot. This did not agree with Original Sin whatsoever. I had been taught we are all born dead in sin separated from God because of Adam's sin. That is not what these 3 stories showed at all. They all showed a person as not originally lost, but becoming lost after being born.

After this I saw many other scriptures that did not agree with Original Sin like Rom 7:9-11, or 1 Pet 2:25. However, these scriptures made perfect sense if Original Sin was not true.

It took me several years of study, but I became thoroughly convinced (and still am) that OS is absolutely false doctrine. I could never believe this again.

You may not believe this, but I simply want to know the truth. I don't want to know man's interpretation of scripture, and I do not want to form my own interpretation of scripture. I want to know GOD'S INTERPRETATION of scripture. Nearly every night for many years I have prayed that God would reveal the truth to me and keep me from error.

You may think me some sort of maverick, nothing can be further from the truth. I simply want to know what scripture says. I go where I believe God and the Holy Spirit through the word of God leads me. This is not easy, you get accused of being a heretic, divisive, etc... That's OK, I knew that would be the case.

If you, or any Calvinist could prove to me from scripture that Calvinism was true, I would believe it. I simply have never seen this, in fact, the more I study scripture, the more convinced I am that Calvinism is serious error.

If that offends you, I am sorry.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are implying that all things, all thoughts are predestined. I don't believe that. I don't believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace teach that.

OR... I have been stating that for at least a year but it always gets ignored (wonder why)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is not true. I have changed my views over the years. I once believed and even taught my children Original Sin. I believed it because that is what I had been taught, and it seemed to fit reality. It explained why everyone sins, including little children.

But over the years as I read and studied scripture I saw much scripture that simply did not mesh with Original Sin, in fact it seemed to utterly contradict it. The 15th chapter of Luke probably had a greater influence on me than any other scripture. I noted that in all three stories that Jesus told, no one was originally lost. The shepherd had 100 sheep, one went out and became lost, the shepherd searched and recovered it. Then Jesus explained this one lost sheep was a sinner who repented. He then told a story of a woman with ten silver coins, she lost one, searched and recovered it. Again, Jesus explained this was a lost sinner who repented. But the coin was not originally lost.

Then Jesus told the story of the prodigal son. He was not lost originally, he was at home with his father. He willingly left home and went out in sin and became lost. When he repented, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.

Now, you may read right over that word "again", but I cannot. This did not agree with Original Sin whatsoever. I had been taught we are all born dead in sin separated from God because of Adam's sin. That is not what these 3 stories showed at all. They all showed a person as not originally lost, but becoming lost after being born.

After this I saw many other scriptures that did not agree with Original Sin like Rom 7:9-11, or 1 Pet 2:25. However, these scriptures made perfect sense if Original Sin was not true.

It took me several years of study, but I became thoroughly convinced (and still am) that OS is absolutely false doctrine. I could never believe this again.

You may not believe this, but I simply want to know the truth. I don't want to know man's interpretation of scripture, and I do not want to form my own interpretation of scripture. I want to know GOD'S INTERPRETATION of scripture. Nearly every night for many years I have prayed that God would reveal the truth to me and keep me from error.

You may think me some sort of maverick, nothing can be further from the truth. I simply want to know what scripture says. I go where I believe God and the Holy Spirit through the word of God leads me. This is not easy, you get accused of being a heretic, divisive, etc... That's OK, I knew that would be the case.

If you, or any Calvinist could prove to me from scripture that Calvinism was true, I would believe it. I simply have never seen this, in fact, the more I study scripture, the more convinced I am that Calvinism is serious error.

If that offends you, I am sorry.

Nope.... doesnt offend me at all....no skin off my nose.

May I ask a personal question.....have you been able to find a Church that holds to your views (you dont have to answer....just that Im very curious)

 

[MorseOp]

I think the tone of this thread made my case better than my own words could. :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh & Im not a Calvinist. Total Calvinist followers walk lock step with the Reformed & Presbyterian Churches. I am a Baptist.

 

[Winman]

Nope.... doesnt offend me at all....no skin off my nose.

May I ask a personal question.....have you been able to find a Church that holds to your views (you dont have to answer....just that Im very curious)

Well, when I joined my church, which is a pretty standard KJV only IFB church, I told the Pastor and deacons my view on Original Sin. I presented all the scripture I had learned over the years that I believe refutes it. My Pastor and deacons said that I presented a very convincing case against OS.

They did seem concerned I was some sort of Pelagian. They asked me if I believed a man could earn or merit salvation. I told them no, and that is the truth. I believe all men when they understand right from wrong will choose to sin at some point in their life and become lost. In fact I think this occurs very early in life for all men. So, no one can be saved except by trusting in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. The language of our SOF actually seemed to imply the very thing I said, so I was accepted.

You may not know this, but many Christians have rejected OS over the history of the church. The Eastern Orthodox Church has never agree with Augustine's theory of OS. John Smyth, the man credited with starting the first Baptist church did not believe in OS.

Truth is, the original Baptists did not believe in OS. You are the folks that have strayed from the faith.

 

[OldRegular]

OR... I have been stating that for at least a year but it always gets ignored (wonder why)

Some people cannot hear anything that is contrary to their preconceived beliefs.

 

[Skandelon]

You are implying that all things, all thoughts are predestined.

According to many Calvinistic thinkers that is exactly what they believe. Most Calvinists deny even the possibility of LFW, which leaves the only alternative that God has sovereignly 'ordained whatsoever comes to pass' (a quote from the Westminster Confession of faith). Now how else would you explain why some of God's children believe Calvinistically and other do not?

 

[OldRegular]

Oh & Im not a Calvinist. Total Calvinist followers walk lock step with the Reformed & Presbyterian Churches. I am a Baptist.

They won't listen!

 

[OldRegular]

According to many Calvinistic thinkers that is exactly what they believe. Most Calvinists deny even the possibility of LFW, which leaves the only alternative that God has sovereignly 'ordained whatsoever comes to pass' (a quote from the Westminster Confession of faith). Now how else would you explain why some of God's children believe Calvinistically and other do not?

I can't help what Calvinists believe. I believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. I have said for years that I am not a Calvinist. I have never read anything that Calvin wrote!

 

[MorseOp]

I can't help what Calvinists believe. I believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. I have said for years that I am not a Calvinist. I have never read anything that Calvin wrote!

The terms have become synonymous; Calvinism = doctrines of grace. Even Spurgeon called himself a Calvinist, and he did not share Calvin's position on infant baptism or church government. I used to get hung up about the label, but not any more. It is what it is.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Predestination tells us that His people will be "conformed to the image of his son."This is where people get very confused....even the Calvinists. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He did predestine all whom He foreknew. So Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. Therefore Predestination is always about 'people' not 'events'

 

[saturneptune]

Why the countless threads ad nausem on Calvinism vs free will??? There are several reasons. The main one is neither side is privy to the inner workings of the mind of the Lord. Both sides manipulate verses to fit their opinion. Both sides consider their opinion of Scripture as the true meaning of Scripture. Neither side has a clue what they are talking about.

In these threads, we have people with advanced degrees in theology having knock down drag outs with others who have advanced degrees in the same area. That sure is a lot of time and money to make post after post in these threads that is like a hampster in a wheel.

The Lord reading these threads has to be our equivilant of watching the Comedy Channel.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

At this point you do not have ears to hear nor eyes to see.

SM,
This is exactly where it starts and finishes.This is the testimony of scripture that cannot be overturned.

Unless a man be born from above......HE CANNOT...enter..CANNOT as in not a believer...not possible...still dead in sin...still outside the Kingdom.

Very clear....:wavey::wavey: