The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree

[saturneptune]

I can't help what Calvinists believe. I believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. I have said for years that I am not a Calvinist. I have never read anything that Calvin wrote!

Amen to that. Doctrines of Sovereign Grace can be read in Scripture. It serves no purpose going over the life of Calvin again. As a poster said above, it is what it is. I do think Doctrines of Grace would have been much more accepted if another individual had been chosen as a label.

 

[saturneptune]

SM,
This is exactly where it starts and finishes.This is the testimony of scripture that cannot be overturned.

Unless a man be born from above......HE CANNOT...enter..CANNOT as in not a believer...not possible...still dead in sin...still outside the Kingdom.

Very clear....:wavey::wavey:

That is made clear in Scripture. Without the work of the Holy Spirit, we have no interest in the things of the Lord. All eyes are closed and ears deaf until touched by the Lord.

 

[Winman]

SM,
This is exactly where it starts and finishes.This is the testimony of scripture that cannot be overturned.

Unless a man be born from above......HE CANNOT...enter..CANNOT as in not a believer...not possible...still dead in sin...still outside the Kingdom.

Very clear....:wavey::wavey:

I would agree with you 100% that no man can enter heaven unless he be born again.

But this scripture does not explain which comes first, faith or regeneration. These verses do not even mention faith.

Truth is, if you continue to read, this passage supports that faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do these verses say that whosoever liveth (regenerated) should believe? NO, these verses say whosoever believes should not perish "but have eternal life".

These scriptures absolutely place faith before regeneration, they show faith as the cause, life or regeneration as the effect.

This supports the Non-Cal view and completely refutes the Reformed/Calvinist view.

So yes, you have to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven, but Jesus also said you have to believe to have life or be born again.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The terms have become synonymous; Calvinism = doctrines of grace. Even Spurgeon called himself a Calvinist, and he did not share Calvin's position on infant baptism or church government. I used to get hung up about the label, but not any more. It is what it is.

I consider it a pejorative description used to lump many similar but different faiths together that are similar because of the unified belief in the salvation doctrine {Doctrines of Grace}. But Calvin in his belief system stressed infant baptism & sacraments (& some other peculiar things) that Baptists DO NOT believe. If you study the scriptures on Predestination you will find its only used to bringing elect people to Salvation....Ephesians 1:11-12 Romans 8:29 Ephesians 1:3-6 Again its entirely set up to conform the elect so that they will be LIKE Christ and WITH Christ. Thats it.....no more no less.

 

[saturneptune]

It is not so much the fact that all the threads deteriorate into name calling in the end. That is to be expected because the two positions are so different, and each side has their own special verses.

There are two mysteries that I cannot figure out. One is a totally unrelated thread many times somehow turns to Calvinism and here we go again. The other thing I cannot undersatnd is the intense frequency of the subject.

Calvinism is not unique in bringing out emotion and the worst in everyone. Other areas that do the same are KJVO, covenant vs dispy, spiritual gifts, end times doctrine, etc.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

SM,
This is exactly where it starts and finishes.This is the testimony of scripture that cannot be overturned.

Unless a man be born from above......HE CANNOT...enter..CANNOT as in not a believer...not possible...still dead in sin...still outside the Kingdom.

Very clear....:wavey::wavey:

Well there you go ....there is your scripture.

 

[MorseOp]

I consider it a pejorative description used to lump many similar but different faiths together that are similar because of the unified belief in the salvation doctrine {Doctrines of Grace}. But Calvin in his belief system stressed infant baptism & sacraments (& some other peculiar things) that Baptists DO NOT believe. If you study the scriptures on Predestination you will find its only used to bringing elect people to Salvation....Ephesians 1:11-12 Romans 8:29 Ephesians 1:3-6 Again its entirely set up to conform the elect so that they will be LIKE Christ and WITH Christ. Thats it.....no more no less.

I understand your point. For me it is not a big deal. I look at the larger picture. If someone calls me a Calvinist, I understand they are referring to my belief in the doctrines of grace.

 

[Iconoclast]

I would agree with you 100% that no man can enter heaven unless he be born again.

But this scripture does not explain which comes first, faith or regeneration. These verses do not even mention faith.

Truth is, if you continue to read, this passage supports that faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do these verses say that whosoever liveth (regenerated) should believe? NO, these verses say whosoever believes should not perish "but have eternal life".

These scriptures absolutely place faith before regeneration, they show faith as the cause, life or regeneration as the effect.

This supports the Non-Cal view and completely refutes the Reformed/Calvinist view.

So yes, you have to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven, but Jesus also said you have to believe to have life or be born again.

Why you do not understand it is that you are looking right past the truth.

To be born from above...new birth...is regeneration...It clearly comes first

UNLESS A MAN BE BORN FROM ABOVE>>>>HE CANNOT enter

You ignore this as if it is not exactly what Jesus taught. According to you and others.....man can enter into life...without new birth...then God gives him new birth as result of what the man did, believed, or whatever...completely opposed to what Jesus taught.

There is a reason you will not see it...The word faith does not have to be included in every verse....as every verse does not say....you must be born from above.....only John and Peter mention being born from above specifically......yet it is taught or implied everywhere in the NT.:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Why you do not understand it is that you are looking right past the truth.

To be born from above...new birth...is regeneration...It clearly comes first

UNLESS A MAN BE BORN FROM ABOVE>>>>HE CANNOT enter

You ignore this as if it is not exactly what Jesus taught. According to you and others.....man can enter into life...without new birth...then God gives him new birth as result of what the man did, believed, or whatever...completely opposed to what Jesus taught.

There is a reason you will not see it...The word faith does not have to be included in every verse....as every verse does not say....you must be born from above.....only John and Peter mention being born from above specifically......yet it is taught or implied everywhere in the NT.:thumbs:

I am not looking past anything. The word "regeneration" means to be made alive again. It means to have life. Jesus clearly said a man must believe to have life.

Later in the same chapter Jesus makes it clear that if you do not believe you shall not enter life.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Again, "regeneration" means to be alive again, to have life. Jesus said a person must believe to have life, and that the person who believes not shall not see life, they shall not be regenerated.

Why are Calvinists so dishonest? It is obvious in all these scriptures that a person must first believe before they have life. You must first believe before you can be regenerated or be born again. It is absolutely clear.

This is why we will never agree, Calvinists NEVER come clean. EVER.

 

[Iconoclast]

That is made clear in Scripture. Without the work of the Holy Spirit, we have no interest in the things of the Lord. All eyes are closed and ears deaf until touched by the Lord.

SN,

I do not take delight in the constant wrangling about these things....I would rather we could move past this and edify each other concerning sanctification, and how to be serve our Lord.
I cannot with clear conscience ignore those who post against the God who has saved me. I think that truth is to be spoken of often,and if need be defended from these attacks.
There are those who really do not seem to want truth, and they try to speak of almost two separate kinds of christian.....two theologies...yet as if both were truth.
I do not hold that understanding at all.Truth is revealed or concealed by God. There are different levels of understanding among true christians...we get what we need if we trust and obey God.

Truth can be known and indeed we are meant to search it out and hold to it.1st jn speaks often that we are to know....not that we cannot know.

We are to patient with new believers, and those young in the faith...yes
many have been patient with us. In here on BB...when you have several who are not novices...but rather openly oppose what has been held as truth for years , and introduce novelties....this leads to the contention.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

& nobodies denying that who ever believes on Jesus Christ will be saved....but you my friend have structured your own priority of what comes 1st .....who cares. We will contend however from our understanding that you have to be born of the spirit 1st in order to start the salvation process.

Here I want to again stress though, the foundation of the free offering of the gospel is not election nor what comes first.....it is that Christ promises to save all who come to him in faith.

So if you want a unifying stance between DOG Theology Believers & non-Calvinists, than let it be that..... "Jesus Christ is able to save all who come to him in Faith. That we can all certainly agree on.....right!

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not looking past anything. The word "regeneration" means to be made alive again. It means to have life. Jesus clearly said a man must believe to have life.

Later in the same chapter Jesus makes it clear that if you do not believe you shall not enter life.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Again, "regeneration" means to be alive again, to have life. Jesus said a person must believe to have life, and that the person who believes not shall not see life, they shall not be regenerated.

Why are Calvinists so dishonest? It is obvious in all these scriptures that a person must first believe before they have life. You must first believe before you can be regenerated or be born again. It is absolutely clear.

This is why we will never agree, Calvinists NEVER come clean. EVER.

Winman,

I am sorry i cannot help you[Which you reject anyhow}

You are putting the cart before the horse.Jesus did not start jn 3..at the end of the chapter.....

He started with the Spirits work in regeneration. He did not start with man ...He started with the Spirit....

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Winman...where did Jesus say here..than man believes before the work of the Spirit????? He did not say that.These verses mean something...do not just give them lip service.




cannot read it for you. You are not reading with understanding.

Of course any sinner[and every sinner who ever gets saved]has to believe...that is not the issue.
that is why we are called believers:thumbs: we believe, we repent, we exercise faith, we pray, .....because God enables us to do so....

Without the work of the Spirit in regeneration..FIRST...none of these things ever take place...or the sinner could just thank himself for believing.

 

[Winman]

& nobodies denying that who ever believes on Jesus Christ will be saved....but you my friend have structured your own priority of what comes 1st .....who cares. We will contend however from our understanding that you have to be born of the spirit 1st in order to start the salvation process.

Here I want to again stress though, the foundation of the free offering of the gospel is not election nor what comes first.....it is that Christ promises to save all who come to him in faith.

So if you want a unifying stance between DOG Theology Believers & non-Calvinists, than let it be that..... "Jesus Christ is able to save all who come to him in Faith. That we can all certainly agree on.....right!

It makes all the difference in the world. If faith comes first, this completely overthrows TULI. If faith comes first, then any man can be saved who chooses to believe, Total Inability is overthrown. If faith comes first, salvation is conditional, if any man can believe, Limited Atonement is overthrown. If any man can believe, Irresistible Grace is overthrown.

No Calvinist here has presented one word of scripture to support that regeneration precedes faith. You can't do it because there is no such scripture. But I have already presented much scripture that shows faith precedes life or regeneration, from Jesus himself.

You know I am telling the truth EWF, and it does matter.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I understand your point. For me it is not a big deal. I look at the larger picture. If someone calls me a Calvinist, I understand they are referring to my belief in the doctrines of grace.

Yes that is our soteriology identity to a large degree but what of our Baptist Distinctives? How do you emphasize them & would they have a role in unifying us with non Calvinist baptists?

 

[OldRegular]

The terms have become synonymous; Calvinism = doctrines of grace. Even Spurgeon called himself a Calvinist, and he did not share Calvin's position on infant baptism or church government. I used to get hung up about the label, but not any more. It is what it is.

Calvinism is a red flag to many people. I may be wrong but I believe many simply close their mind to the Scriptural teaching of the Doctrines of Grace because they are linked to Calvin!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It makes all the difference in the world. If faith comes first, this completely overthrows TULI. If faith comes first, then any man can be saved who chooses to believe, Total Inability is overthrown. If faith comes first, salvation is conditional, if any man can believe, Limited Atonement is overthrown. If any man can believe, Irresistible Grace is overthrown.

No Calvinist here has presented one word of scripture to support that regeneration precedes faith. You can't do it because there is no such scripture. But I have already presented much scripture that shows faith precedes life or regeneration, from Jesus himself.

You know I am telling the truth EWF, and it does matter.

Well then here is where I will have to disagree with you because my own personal salvation story (testimony) is about becoming a regenerated child of God 1st....only after when I recognized it & saw the vast quantities of mercy provided did I ever understand & indicate I believed. And I know that every person claiming some form of Salvation by Grace will tell you similar......so my friend you've already lost the battle. Solice yourself with "Amazing Grace" and tell me what you think John Newton is claiming. LOL ....bed Time :sleeping_2:

 

[OldRegular]

It makes all the difference in the world. If faith comes first, this completely overthrows TULI.

Just why did you believe? How do you know you were not regenerated before you believed?

 

[Winman]

Just why did you believe? How do you know you were not regenerated before you believed?

How can a person be spiritually alive before faith? Until you believe your sins are not forgiven, you are condemned, you are dead in sins.

No one can be spiritually alive until their sins are forgiven, and no one's sins are forgiven until after they believe.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Verse 15 and 16 both say that a person does not have life until they first believe. Verse 18 says that until a person believes they are condemned.

No one has life while they are condemned.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse shows what life is, it is to be freed from condemnation. Only a person who has believed has life and shall not come into condemnation.

It doesn't matter, I could show all of you Calvinists another dozen verses that all say a person must believe to have life, and every one of you will ignore scripture and hold to your man made doctrines. You folks are not interested in truth whatsoever.

 

[saturneptune]

SN,

I do not take delight in the constant wrangling about these things....I would rather we could move past this and edify each other concerning sanctification, and how to be serve our Lord.
I cannot with clear conscience ignore those who post against the God who has saved me. I think that truth is to be spoken of often,and if need be defended from these attacks.
There are those who really do not seem to want truth, and they try to speak of almost two separate kinds of christian.....two theologies...yet as if both were truth.
I do not hold that understanding at all.Truth is revealed or concealed by God. There are different levels of understanding among true christians...we get what we need if we trust and obey God.

Truth can be known and indeed we are meant to search it out and hold to it.1st jn speaks often that we are to know....not that we cannot know.

We are to patient with new believers, and those young in the faith...yes
many have been patient with us. In here on BB...when you have several who are not novices...but rather openly oppose what has been held as truth for years , and introduce novelties....this leads to the contention.

That was a good post. I do not include you in the posters who start Calvin free will threads for the sake of argument. I agree with OR as said above, the name Calvin is some of the problem. If you will look at my signature line, it speaks very strongly for doctrines of grace.

 

[percho]

Could John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius have both been wrong?