The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree

[Allan]

One is the Gospel, the other is not. There can be no compromise.

...And that, my Arminian friends, is the Gospel.

And there you have it from TCassidy and Aaron.. unless you're a Calvinist/Reformed you are unsaved.

Another gospel, according to scripture, is a different gospel. And if a different gospel it cannot be a gospel that saves. There is only one gospel that saves anything else, doesn't.Thus why Paul states that those who preach it are condemned.

Unfortunately for those who hold the above view, the gospel is not dependant upon whether or not one holds to limited atonement or whether or not faith precedes regeneration nor irresistible grace. Thus we find Both are grievously and erroneously wrong in his understanding of what the gospel message is.

 

[Winman]

Just why did you believe? How do you know you were not regenerated before you believed?

These are two different questions, I will answer them separately.

As a boy when I first read and heard the scriptures, some parts of the Bible were difficult to believe. It is not easy to believe Moses could part the Red Sea, or that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and survived, or that Jesus could walk on water. The supernatural is naturally difficult to believe. Nevertheless, I can see the Universe around me, and to me it was obvious that it was of highly intelligent design. So, I believed there is a supernatural God who created everything, and therefore the miracles in the Bible could be true.

But what really convinced me was the moral truths in the scriptures. The Bible doesn't tell a man what he wants to hear, the Bible tells a man what he knows in his heart to be true.

I have heard it said that if man could write the scriptures he wouldn't, and if he would, he couldn't. This is very true. David would not tell the world of his adultery, Noah would not tell you he got drunk and lay in his tent naked, etc... The scriptures tell us about our corrupt feelings and thoughts that we do not like to believe are true, and yet we know for a certainty they are true. So, the scriptures had a ring of truth that convinced me it truly was the word of God and absolutely true.

So that is why I believed. Now I will tell you why I know I wasn't regenerated until AFTER I believed.

This is a simple answer, no man can be spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven. Until your sins are forgiven you are in a state of condemnation and will die in your sins. Spiritual death is not like physical death as Calvinism portrays it, it is more accurately portrayed as being condemned, like a person locked up on death row awaiting execution. As sinners we are held and bound by the law, we are a convicted felon. The only solution is a pardon, which Jesus offers to us.

No man is justified until after he believes, and so no man can be spiritually alive until AFTER he believes.

The scriptures say only after a person believes do they pass from death to life. Faith precedes LIFE or regeneration.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You can remove the words I have highlighted in blue without violence to this verse and it would say;

He that believeth is passed from death to life

No man is spiritually alive, no man is regenerated, no man has passed from death to life until he first believes. Faith precedes regeneration, ALL scripture agrees on this. There is no scripture that says regeneration or life precedes faith, NONE.

 

[Allan]

The one question no Arminian can answer is, If you and your neighbor both heard the same gospel message, and you believed but you neighbor did not, what is the difference between you and him? Why did you believe the gospel and why did he reject it?

Incorrect.. just because you don't agree with the answer does not mean it has not and cannot be answered.

 

[Winman]

Shuckin and jivin just won't cut it Winman. Neither will calling those fools who ask a perfectly logical question that those of Arminian persuasion seem to be unable, but more likely unwilling, to answer.

It was not shuck and jive. Asking why one person believes and another does not does not prove faith is imposed on a person by God.

I believe Romney will be a better President than Obama. Why? Because I believe Romney believes in traditional American values such as hard work, independence, and family values. I believe Obama is an outright communist Marxist who would turn into a dictator if he had the chance, and who would enslave America. He believes in all sorts of wicked fornication between anybody and everybody and believes in killing unborn children.

But the very reasons I prefer Romney over Obama are the very reasons another person prefers Obama over Romney. Some folks want to live in a communist society where the government gives you everything. They want fornication, gay marriage, and abortion on demand so they can live a loose lifestyle.

So, people have their own reasons for believing the gospel. One man is convicted of his sins and wants to be forgiven by God through Jesus, another man hates God and wants to live in sin and rebellion.

God does not force a person to believe or rebel. God allows every man to choose for himself.

It is your doctrine that gives every man an excuse. Every sinner can say he was born with a sin nature that only allowed him to sin and that he could not possibly believe. It is not his fault he is a sinner, he was born that way. God does not care, because God could have changed him if he wanted to. Obviously God wanted him to be a sinner and to sin, or else God would have converted him. This is the perfect excuse.

Your view is horrendous, but you refuse to see it.

 

[psalms109:31]

...I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”


Why did the angels rebel, because they have a free agency just like king Tyre did. They worshiped themselves a creation over the Creator.

I can't come to the same conclusion of the residue left over from Hyper-Calvinist, because I would have to change many scriptures to make it work. Hyper-Calvinist residue like regeneration before faith which is ridiculous and all men not meaning all men, in the below scriptures.

1 Timothy 2

2 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.


Ezekiel 18: 25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

If a man turns to God it is Jesus who saved them, if they turn away from Jesus they are following their own will by their free agency not the will of God.

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the LORD says: “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

 

[MorseOp]

Oh, I am a big nit picker! :laugh: primarily because I want to get it right. 1st, the term "Calvinist" technically is not correct. (2) The Term "Calvinist" draws more fire & causes more arguments ....people automatically draw their swords & choose up seconds the moment the word is mentioned.....too much bad press.

Then why are you pastoring a Baptist Church?

Because I'm a Baptist! I hold to believers baptism and Baptist ecclesiology.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I invested a few hours last evening reading old Calvinist vs. Arminian threads. All of them begin and end in disagreement. Still Calvinism vs. Arminianism is the most popular topic in this forum. The fundamental problem is hermeneutics. There will never be agreement since our respective approach to scripture is systemically different. They are irreconcilable. Still the threads come. This is why churches split over the issue. Neither side is going to be first to back down because they are convinced, by scripture, they are right.

The funny thing is, people think the positions are diametrically opposed, but that is not true; Calvinism and Arminianism are both Western, Latin, Reformed theologies. Classical Arminianism allowed for holding to eternal security, and it affirmed total depravity. So, it differed with Calvinism on only three petals of the tulip.

That's why I am not an Arminian; I disagree with all five petals, among other things.

 

[MorseOp]

The error is yours.

Says you. As for me, I'm content being labeled either way.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I agree that it's worth debating. Contending for the truth is never an exercise in futility. It is also worth dividing over.

And I totally disagree with that.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I do. I consider the opposing doctrine to be serious error. I could not acquiesce to sharing this opposing doctrine in my church. Armianism will never be taught from our pulpit. Likewise many Arminian churches hold the same position. Therefore how could these positions co-exist harmoniously in a church? It is better to separate in such a case.

They have been doing it in the Anglican Communion for centuries, along with other "diametrically opposite" doctrines.

 

[OldRegular]

No man is justified until after he believes, and so no man can be spiritually alive until AFTER he believes.

I have never said that justification precedes faith.

The scriptures say only after a person believes do they pass from death to life. Faith precedes LIFE or regeneration.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You can remove the words I have highlighted in blue without violence to this verse and it would say;

He that believeth is passed from death to life

No man is spiritually alive, no man is regenerated, no man has passed from death to life until he first believes. Faith precedes regeneration, ALL scripture agrees on this. There is no scripture that says regeneration or life precedes faith, NONE.

You are mistaken.

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Winman you can disagree with the teaching of Jesus Christ if you choose. In the above passage our Lord tells us that when we are born again or regenerated we don't even understand what is happening. He says nothing about what man must do to be "born again". If you have believed in Jesus Christ you are aware of that are you not?

Then in Ephesians we are told:

Ephesians 2:1-8
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The above Scripture tells us that "even when we were dead in our transgressions God made us alive". There is nothing that says we must believe prior to being made alive!

Now I am not disputing the passage of Scripture you posted above. I have told you many times that Faith is an essential part of Salvation. We are justified by faith. Faith is essential in our conversion experience. Faith is what enables us to live and follow Jesus Christ day by day. One of my favorite passages of Scripture is that from Habbakuk: the just shall live by his faith.

And then we are told: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Well, when I joined my church, which is a pretty standard KJV only IFB church, I told the Pastor and deacons my view on Original Sin. I presented all the scripture I had learned over the years that I believe refutes it. My Pastor and deacons said that I presented a very convincing case against OS.

They did seem concerned I was some sort of Pelagian. They asked me if I believed a man could earn or merit salvation. I told them no, and that is the truth. I believe all men when they understand right from wrong will choose to sin at some point in their life and become lost. In fact I think this occurs very early in life for all men. So, no one can be saved except by trusting in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. The language of our SOF actually seemed to imply the very thing I said, so I was accepted.

You may not know this, but many Christians have rejected OS over the history of the church. The Eastern Orthodox Church has never agree with Augustine's theory of OS. John Smyth, the man credited with starting the first Baptist church did not believe in OS.

Truth is, the original Baptists did not believe in OS. You are the folks that have strayed from the faith.

All of that is 100% the truth.

The EOC never adopted the errors of the Latin West. And the original Baptists were not Calvinists or Augustinians.

 

[Winman]

I have never said that justification precedes faith.

How can a man be spiritually alive when he is still dead in trespasses and sins?

You are mistaken.

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Winman you can disagree with the teaching of Jesus Christ if you choose. In the above passage our Lord tells us that when we are born again or regenerated we don't even understand what is happening. He says nothing about what man must do to be "born again". If you have believed in Jesus Christ you are aware of that are you not?

Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again to see or enter the kingdom of God, but he does not say how a person is born again. There is nothing in these verses that would support my view or your view, they are silent about how a person is born again.

That said, scripture like John 1:12-13 tells us that to those who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become a son of God, being born of God. We believe, then God regenerates.

Then in Ephesians we are told:

Ephesians 2:1-8
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The above Scripture tells us that "even when we were dead in our transgressions God made us alive". There is nothing that says we must believe prior to being made alive!

It's right in front of you and you can't see it. What does it say we were dead in? OUR TRESPASSES AND SINS! This scripture is telling you why we were dead, we were dead because we were sinners. And how are we forgiven our sins? Only when we believe on Jesus. So God cannot make us alive until be believe on Jesus.

You are not thinking this through. Think clearly and you will see I am correct.

Now I am not disputing the passage of Scripture you posted above. I have told you many times that Faith is an essential part of Salvation. We are justified by faith. Faith is essential in our conversion experience. Faith is what enables us to live and follow Jesus Christ day by day. One of my favorite passages of Scripture is that from Habbakuk: the just shall live by his faith.

And then we are told: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Until you believe you are DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus said unless a man believes on him, that man shall die in his sins. Until you first believe on Jesus it is impossible to be spiritually alive. You remain dead in your trespasses and sins until you believe.

Now, if you understand this, you can go back and understand these persons in Ephesians had believed on Jesus, and this is how God made them alive when they were dead in trespasses and sins.

Calvinism has the cart before the horse. You cannot be spiritually alive until you believe and all your sins are forgiven. You cannot possibly be regenerated until you first believe. Impossible.

 

[MorseOp]

They have been doing it in the Anglican Communion for centuries, along with other "diametrically opposite" doctrines.

Anglicans?! The same group that ordains homosexual ministers? Great example.

 

[Blammo]

One side is open-minded and humble with a desire to improve everyones understanding of the scriptures including their own. The other side is closed-minded and arrogant with a desire to ridicule and mock others who don't measure up to their superior intellect and divine knowledge of the scriptures.

I don't think it is necessary to further define who is who.

I would bet most people are not 100% one way or the other. For instance, I am neither 100% humble or arrogant. This post proves it, no?

 

[TCassidy]

And there you have it from TCassidy and Aaron.. unless you're a Calvinist/Reformed you are unsaved.

This is why I seldom get involved in discussions of Soteriology any more.

Lying is such a terrible sin. Why must you stoop so low? Brother, get up out of the gutter! I have never said or implied in any way that an Arminian is lost. Everyone who believes that Christ died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose again for their justification is saved and my brother/sister in Christ. The discussion is not: saved verses lost. The discussion: is saved and how we got that way.

Another gospel, according to scripture, is a different gospel. And if a different gospel it cannot be a gospel that saves. There is only one gospel that saves anything else, doesn't.Thus why Paul states that those who preach it are condemned.

So, are you saying I believe "another gospel" and preach "another gospel" and am therefore unsaved and condemned?

Unfortunately for those who hold the above view, the gospel is not dependant upon whether or not one holds to limited atonement or whether or not faith precedes regeneration nor irresistible grace. Thus we find Both are grievously and erroneously wrong in his understanding of what the gospel message is.

I have been preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for 40 years. I have seen the power of God at work in the lives of countless numbers of people. I have seen souls saved, lives changed, homes strengthened, and the hopeless having a new Hope in Christ. And you call that "Unfortunate?" How so?

 

[TCassidy]

Incorrect.. just because you don't agree with the answer does not mean it has not and cannot be answered.

No Arminian in the past 40 years has been able to answer that question without, ultimately, saying that they were better than their neighbor.

 

[TCassidy]

One side is open-minded and humble with a desire to improve everyones understanding of the scriptures including their own. The other side is closed-minded and arrogant with a desire to ridicule and mock others who don't measure up to their superior intellect and divine knowledge of the scriptures.

I don't think it is necessary to further define who is who.

I would bet most people are not 100% one way or the other. For instance, I am neither 100% humble or arrogant. This post proves it, no?

I agree. It is really said that Particular Baptists, in all humility, give all the honor and Glory to God, while the General Baptists, in sinful human pride, try to appropriate some of that honor and glory for themselves.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Why the countless threads ad nausem on Calvinism vs free will??? There are several reasons. The main one is neither side is privy to the inner workings of the mind of the Lord. Both sides manipulate verses to fit their opinion. Both sides consider their opinion of Scripture as the true meaning of Scripture. Neither side has a clue what they are talking about.

In these threads, we have people with advanced degrees in theology having knock down drag outs with others who have advanced degrees in the same area. That sure is a lot of time and money to make post after post in these threads that is like a hampster in a wheel.

The Lord reading these threads has to be our equivilant of watching the Comedy Channel.

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Anglicans?! The same group that ordains homosexual ministers? Great example.

Don't deliberately distort the facts. The mainline Episcopal Church does that; the vast majority of the Anglican Communion does not. Before making ignorant (lack of knowledge) statements, you should do some reading. "Anglican realignment" and "continuing Anglicanism" might be a good place to start.

For centuries, Anglicanism has been able to hold diametrically opposite views within one denomination.