Featured The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree

And there you have it from TCassidy and Aaron.. unless you're a Calvinist/Reformed you are unsaved.

Another gospel, according to scripture, is a different gospel. And if a different gospel it cannot be a gospel that saves. There is only one gospel that saves anything else, doesn't.Thus why Paul states that those who preach it are condemned.

Unfortunately for those who hold the above view, the gospel is not dependant upon whether or not one holds to limited atonement or whether or not faith precedes regeneration nor irresistible grace. Thus we find Both are grievously and erroneously wrong in his understanding of what the gospel message is.

 

These are two different questions, I will answer them separately.

As a boy when I first read and heard the scriptures, some parts of the Bible were difficult to believe. It is not easy to believe Moses could part the Red Sea, or that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and survived, or that Jesus could walk on water. The supernatural is naturally difficult to believe. Nevertheless, I can see the Universe around me, and to me it was obvious that it was of highly intelligent design. So, I believed there is a supernatural God who created everything, and therefore the miracles in the Bible could be true.

But what really convinced me was the moral truths in the scriptures. The Bible doesn't tell a man what he wants to hear, the Bible tells a man what he knows in his heart to be true.

I have heard it said that if man could write the scriptures he wouldn't, and if he would, he couldn't. This is very true. David would not tell the world of his adultery, Noah would not tell you he got drunk and lay in his tent naked, etc... The scriptures tell us about our corrupt feelings and thoughts that we do not like to believe are true, and yet we know for a certainty they are true. So, the scriptures had a ring of truth that convinced me it truly was the word of God and absolutely true.

So that is why I believed. Now I will tell you why I know I wasn't regenerated until AFTER I believed.

This is a simple answer, no man can be spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven. Until your sins are forgiven you are in a state of condemnation and will die in your sins. Spiritual death is not like physical death as Calvinism portrays it, it is more accurately portrayed as being condemned, like a person locked up on death row awaiting execution. As sinners we are held and bound by the law, we are a convicted felon. The only solution is a pardon, which Jesus offers to us.

No man is justified until after he believes, and so no man can be spiritually alive until AFTER he believes.

The scriptures say only after a person believes do they pass from death to life. Faith precedes LIFE or regeneration.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You can remove the words I have highlighted in blue without violence to this verse and it would say;

He that believeth is passed from death to life

No man is spiritually alive, no man is regenerated, no man has passed from death to life until he first believes. Faith precedes regeneration, ALL scripture agrees on this. There is no scripture that says regeneration or life precedes faith, NONE.

 

Incorrect.. just because you don't agree with the answer does not mean it has not and cannot be answered.

 

It was not shuck and jive. Asking why one person believes and another does not does not prove faith is imposed on a person by God.

I believe Romney will be a better President than Obama. Why? Because I believe Romney believes in traditional American values such as hard work, independence, and family values. I believe Obama is an outright communist Marxist who would turn into a dictator if he had the chance, and who would enslave America. He believes in all sorts of wicked fornication between anybody and everybody and believes in killing unborn children.

But the very reasons I prefer Romney over Obama are the very reasons another person prefers Obama over Romney. Some folks want to live in a communist society where the government gives you everything. They want fornication, gay marriage, and abortion on demand so they can live a loose lifestyle.

So, people have their own reasons for believing the gospel. One man is convicted of his sins and wants to be forgiven by God through Jesus, another man hates God and wants to live in sin and rebellion.

God does not force a person to believe or rebel. God allows every man to choose for himself.

It is your doctrine that gives every man an excuse. Every sinner can say he was born with a sin nature that only allowed him to sin and that he could not possibly believe. It is not his fault he is a sinner, he was born that way. God does not care, because God could have changed him if he wanted to. Obviously God wanted him to be a sinner and to sin, or else God would have converted him. This is the perfect excuse.

Your view is horrendous, but you refuse to see it.

 

...I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”


Why did the angels rebel, because they have a free agency just like king Tyre did. They worshiped themselves a creation over the Creator.

I can't come to the same conclusion of the residue left over from Hyper-Calvinist, because I would have to change many scriptures to make it work. Hyper-Calvinist residue like regeneration before faith which is ridiculous and all men not meaning all men, in the below scriptures.

1 Timothy 2

2 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.


Ezekiel 18: 25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

If a man turns to God it is Jesus who saved them, if they turn away from Jesus they are following their own will by their free agency not the will of God.

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the LORD says: “Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

 

The funny thing is, people think the positions are diametrically opposed, but that is not true; Calvinism and Arminianism are both Western, Latin, Reformed theologies. Classical Arminianism allowed for holding to eternal security, and it affirmed total depravity. So, it differed with Calvinism on only three petals of the tulip.

That's why I am not an Arminian; I disagree with all five petals, among other things.

 

And I totally disagree with that.

 

They have been doing it in the Anglican Communion for centuries, along with other "diametrically opposite" doctrines.

 

I have never said that justification precedes faith.

You are mistaken.

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Winman you can disagree with the teaching of Jesus Christ if you choose. In the above passage our Lord tells us that when we are born again or regenerated we don't even understand what is happening. He says nothing about what man must do to be "born again". If you have believed in Jesus Christ you are aware of that are you not?

Then in Ephesians we are told:

Ephesians 2:1-8
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The above Scripture tells us that "even when we were dead in our transgressions God made us alive". There is nothing that says we must believe prior to being made alive!

Now I am not disputing the passage of Scripture you posted above. I have told you many times that Faith is an essential part of Salvation. We are justified by faith. Faith is essential in our conversion experience. Faith is what enables us to live and follow Jesus Christ day by day. One of my favorite passages of Scripture is that from Habbakuk: the just shall live by his faith.

And then we are told: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

All of that is 100% the truth.

The EOC never adopted the errors of the Latin West. And the original Baptists were not Calvinists or Augustinians.

 

How can a man be spiritually alive when he is still dead in trespasses and sins?

Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again to see or enter the kingdom of God, but he does not say how a person is born again. There is nothing in these verses that would support my view or your view, they are silent about how a person is born again.

That said, scripture like John 1:12-13 tells us that to those who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become a son of God, being born of God. We believe, then God regenerates.

It's right in front of you and you can't see it. What does it say we were dead in? OUR TRESPASSES AND SINS! This scripture is telling you why we were dead, we were dead because we were sinners. And how are we forgiven our sins? Only when we believe on Jesus. So God cannot make us alive until be believe on Jesus.

You are not thinking this through. Think clearly and you will see I am correct.

Until you believe you are DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus said unless a man believes on him, that man shall die in his sins. Until you first believe on Jesus it is impossible to be spiritually alive. You remain dead in your trespasses and sins until you believe.

Now, if you understand this, you can go back and understand these persons in Ephesians had believed on Jesus, and this is how God made them alive when they were dead in trespasses and sins.

Calvinism has the cart before the horse. You cannot be spiritually alive until you believe and all your sins are forgiven. You cannot possibly be regenerated until you first believe. Impossible.

 

One side is open-minded and humble with a desire to improve everyones understanding of the scriptures including their own. The other side is closed-minded and arrogant with a desire to ridicule and mock others who don't measure up to their superior intellect and divine knowledge of the scriptures.

I don't think it is necessary to further define who is who.

I would bet most people are not 100% one way or the other. For instance, I am neither 100% humble or arrogant. This post proves it, no?

 

:laugh: :laugh:

 

Don't deliberately distort the facts. The mainline Episcopal Church does that; the vast majority of the Anglican Communion does not. Before making ignorant (lack of knowledge) statements, you should do some reading. "Anglican realignment" and "continuing Anglicanism" might be a good place to start.

For centuries, Anglicanism has been able to hold diametrically opposite views within one denomination.