The Reason why Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree

[Skandelon]

I agree. It is really said that Particular Baptists, in all humility, give all the honor and Glory to God, while the General Baptists, in sinful human pride, try to appropriate some of that honor and glory for themselves.

Wow.

If I boast, I would only boast that I understand and know God, that He is the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, because that pleases HIM!

 

[Winman]

Then you haven't been reading me or Allan. You should get out more. :love2:

Better = meritorious, more deserving

But we don't believe faith merits (or deserves) salvation. Did the Prodigal son deserve to be restored as an heir, giving the golden ring, and a party simply because he returned home with his tail between his legs in humble surrender? Of course not. That was all of the father's grace. The son, like us, deserve to be sent to hell even if we have the faith the size of a mustard tree, but God in his grace chooses to credit our seed size faith as righteousness and give us something we NEVER could earn. Faith merits nothing. Responding in humble surrender is weakness, not strength. It isn't boast worthy or 'better,' it is giving up, letting go, and admitting complete and utter defeat. You have wrongly concluded that faith is some of work of law by which we earn God's favor, but that could not be further from the truth.

Exactly correct, it is like the poor publican who did not boast of his obedience and good works toward God as the Pharisee did, but beat upon his chest and cried out, "God be merciful to me, a sinner". It is depending on God's goodness and mercy, not any merit or goodness in ourselves.

I am amazed that Calvinists do not understand this, they seem not to understand salvation at all.

 

[Skandelon]

Exactly correct, it is like the poor publican who did not boast of his obedience and good works toward God as the Pharisee did, but beat upon his chest and cried out, "God be merciful to me, a sinner". It is depending on God's goodness and mercy, not any merit or goodness in ourselves.

I am amazed that Calvinists do not understand this, they seem not to understand salvation at all.

Well, what they have done is categorized humility and faith as a meritorious work of the law, and thus have concluded that if anyone has the capacity to humbly believe, then they would be earning or meriting their own salvation. We know that is not the case, but that is what they have wrongly concluded.

The Prodigal Son when standing at the pig sty had a decision to make. He could have acted in pride (the world would say independence and strength) and 'pulled himself up by his boot straps' and tried to make the best of his horrible life; or he could do what he did and surrender and go grovel to his daddy for help like the weak, poor soul he was. The world would call the choice of the prodigal to return home, weakness and a 'crutch.' But God gives grace to the humble. "Humble yourself and you will be exalted."

Faith and humility merit NOTHING! They are not "BETTER," they are weaker! Why else would God say that he CHOOSES THE WEAK to shame the wise? What is UNCONDITIONAL about that choice? He chooses to grace the weak ones!

Do Calvinists think God makes them weak in order to have weak ones to choose? It makes little sense....

 

[Winman]

Well, what they have done is categorized humility and faith as a meritorious work of the law, and thus have concluded that if anyone has the capacity to humbly believe, then they would be earning or meriting their own salvation. We know that is not the case, but that is what they have wrongly concluded.

The Prodigal Son when standing at the pig sty had a decision to make. He could have acted in pride (the world would say independence and strength) and 'pulled himself up by his boot straps' and tried to make the best of his horrible life; or he could do what he did and surrender and go grovel to his daddy for help like the weak, poor soul he was. The world would call the choice of the prodigal to return home, weakness and a 'crutch.' But God gives grace to the humble. "Humble yourself and you will be exalted."

Faith and humility merit NOTHING! They are not "BETTER," they are weaker! Why else would God say that he CHOOSES THE WEAK to shame the wise? What is UNCONDITIONAL about that choice? He chooses to grace the weak ones!

Do Calvinists think God makes them weak in order to have weak ones to choose? It makes little sense....

Yeah, they don't get it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you know anything about the history of the Particular Baptists and what their faith cost them?

Why in the world would you demean them and their faith?

http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/chhist5.html

For spiritual enrichment & edification

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinists either are ignorant of scripture, or intentionally pervert what it says.

So you would would have any trouble making these same accusations to Charles Spurgeon directly then?

 

[Winman]

I like this image even better, we see how the young man came home in his filthy rags, embarrassed and ashamed for all the sin he had committed, asking only that he be made a servant. But his father is merciful and restores him to be a son.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ding Ding Ding......Nasty comment alert!

I am amazed that Calvinists do not understand this, they seem not to understand salvation at all.

 

[percho]

Six pages of post since I posted which received no comments which is also ok for I am an old and uneducated person and can live with it.

Six pages of Christians calling one another all kind of names.

Love one another.

Doctrines of Grace?

For by grace are ye saved through the faith;

If grace is only applied because of our reaction to something which God did; How can it be grace?

Where does grace come from? Does grace come directly to us or does it come to us through someone else? Was that grace first given to someone else and then is given to us? What does through mean? Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. What does that mean? Does Jesus actually inherit something from God the Father that we also shall inherit? What?
Grace maybe? What about eternal life?
For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do Calvinists think God makes them weak in order to have weak ones to choose? It makes little sense....

Why dont you go ask your brother...isnt he a Calvinist?

 

[Winman]

So you would would have no trouble making these same accusations to Charles Spurgeon directly then?

Absolutely, I would show him the same scriptures I showed you.

I have respect for scholars like Spurgeon, but I also understand they were educated to believe certain doctrines. Spurgeon believed in Irresistible Grace and so believed God imposes faith on a person. This is not what scripture says at all. When Jesus sent his disciples out, he told them to knock on people's doors. If they were invited in they went in and lodged there. If the folks were not interested in hearing the gospel and would not invite them in, Jesus instructed them to knock the dust off their feet as a testimony that they had tried to tell them the gospel, but they refused. They then left and went to another door.

Scriptures never show God forcing himself on people as Calvinism teaches.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The "vast majority" of Anglican churches are steeped in dead ritualism. It was also the breeding ground of N.T. Wright and his refutation of imputation. At least pick something a bit more relevant to the discussion. Anglican and Episcopalain churches are also hierarchical in nature. There is not much that a local church can do about opposing a false teaching unless the denomination acts. Baptist churches are independent. Usually there is a shared theological position held by the pastor, deacons/elders, and membership. When there is not there are problems.

You can have a Calvinist pastor/elders with some Arminian members and vice versa. As long as the members do not try to push their agenda I suppose you can have a semblance of unity. But once that agenda is pushed, or there is a rift in church leadership, one of the positions will win out. That is not speculation, it is tried and tested fact. And what if you simply cannot abide the teaching from the pulpit? I see it happen all the time. We have had people join our church because they cannot stand the Arminiansim of their previous church. We have had members leave our church because they cannot abide Calvinism. I think that is a good thing, so long as they leave on good terms. I can respect the person who tells me they no longer believe in the doctrines of grace and feel lead to leave for a church they agree with doctrinally. I may disagree with their theological conviction, but I must respect their honor and integrity.

(See bolded part) That is simply not true. You are fond of making blanket statements, aren't you? And false blanket statements, at that. How many Anglican churches have you worshiped in? I've worshiped in a few, and I didn't find any dead ritualism. Conversely, I have found that in some non-liturgical churches, Baptist included. "Lead in prayer", sing a hymn, preach, "lead in prayer", sing a hymn, see you next week, go home.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Absolutely, I would show him the same scriptures I showed you.

I have respect for scholars like Spurgeon, but I also understand they were educated to believe certain doctrines. Spurgeon believed in Irresistible Grace and so believed God imposes faith on a person. This is not what scripture says at all. When Jesus sent his disciples out, he told them to knock on people's doors. If they were invited in they went in and lodged there. If the folks were not interested in hearing the gospel and would not invite them in, Jesus instructed them to knock the dust off their feet as a testimony that they had tried to tell them the gospel, but they refused. They then left and went to another door.

Scriptures never show God forcing himself on people as Calvinism teaches.

Id sell tickets to that event. :laugh:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Please explain to me what is ridiculous about the Particular Baptists giving all Glory to God. What is untrue about the Particular Baptists giving all Glory to God? And what is self-righteous about Particular Baptists giving all Glory to God?

You seem confused. Who in this thread has made such a statement, or implied such?

Here is what you said: "It is really said that Particular Baptists, in all humility, give all the honor and Glory to God, while the General Baptists, in sinful human pride, try to appropriate some of that honor and glory for themselves."

I stand by my statement.

Or maybe you didn't mean it the way it came across.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael.....frankly Ive never seen the inside of an Anglican church but there again never seen one in my state.

Now I have been in a Episcopalian Church.....and as they say in NJ.....foget bout it!

So.... how effective can they be? I dont see any fruit (I see a ton of fruits in the Episapalian Church however).

And did you know that scientists have discovered the first gay gene, in the Episcopal Church? Gene Robinson, bishop of New Hampshire.

Forgive me.

 

[Winman]

Id sell tickets to that event. :laugh:

I'm going to tell you something friend, when you die and you stand before St. Peter (yes, I know this is not how it really happens) and they ask why you should be allowed in, you aren't going to be able to say you knew Charles Spurgeon or R.C. Sproul. No man is going to get you into heaven, except to cast yourself on Jesus Christ the way the prodigal son cast himself on his father's mercy.

No church, no religion, no theologian is going to get you into heaven, only Jesus.

Spurgeon was a good man, but he was just a man like you and me. He taught a lot of truth, but he taught a lot of error as well. And Irresistible Grace is error not taught anywhere in scripture. You never see God force or impose faith on anyone in scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Absolutely, I would show him the same scriptures I showed you.

I have respect for scholars like Spurgeon, but I also understand they were educated to believe certain doctrines. Spurgeon believed in Irresistible Grace and so believed God imposes faith on a person. This is not what scripture says at all. When Jesus sent his disciples out, he told them to knock on people's doors. If they were invited in they went in and lodged there. If the folks were not interested in hearing the gospel and would not invite them in, Jesus instructed them to knock the dust off their feet as a testimony that they had tried to tell them the gospel, but they refused. They then left and went to another door.

Scriptures never show God forcing himself on people as Calvinism teaches.

No worries Winman.....Im already saved. No other commentary necessary & no other dialog required (ever)

 

[Revmitchell]

The fundamental problem is hermeneutics. There will never be agreement since our respective approach to scripture is systemically different.

The problem is Calvinists don't know what in the world they are talking about which is displayed in this post for all to see. the problem is not hermeneutics it is Calvinist ideology.

 

[TCassidy]

Here is what you said: "It is really said that Particular Baptists, in all humility, give all the honor and Glory to God, while the General Baptists, in sinful human pride, try to appropriate some of that honor and glory for themselves."

I stand by my statement.

Or maybe you didn't mean it the way it came across.

Or maybe you failed to understand a true, historic statement concerning the price paid for their faith by the Particular Baptists.

 

[TCassidy]

The problem is Calvinists don't know what in the world they are talking about which is displayed in this post for all to see. the problem is not hermeneutics it is Calvinist ideology.

Could you please point out, using the 5 Heads of Doctrine, published in 1619 at Dort, the errors you believe exist in believing in Particular redemption.