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The result of loving Jesus and keeping His commandments

Danthemailman

Danthemailman

Active Member
Samuels said:
It says that only some of them (in the Corinthian church) were born again.
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I don't believe that's what Paul means by "some of you," yet Paul reminds this group of believers in the Corinthian church that some of them had been previously involved in the practice of these sins before they were washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Although not all Christians have been previously guilty prior to their conversion of the PRACTICE of ALL the sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, yet all have equally been guilty of having sinned and coming short of the glory of God.
 
Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
So all the people that walked away from Jesus teaching belonged to him before they fell away?
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The ones that were disciples did, yes.


"When many of his disciples heard it, they said, 'This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?' But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, 'Do you take offense at this?'...After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?'" (John 6:60-62, 66-67)

Disciples = followers of Jesus
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
Walpole said:
The ones that were disciples did, yes.


"When many of his disciples heard it, they said, 'This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?' But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, 'Do you take offense at this?'...After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?'" (John 6:60-62, 66-67)

Disciples = followers of Jesus
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I disagree. A disciple does not equal a person who has been saved and redeemed. A disciple is just someone who sits under the teaching of a person and learns from them. Disciples come and go.
When a person is reconciled and redeemed, they are adopted as children of the King. They get a name change. They get all the benefits and responsibilities of being in the family.
Now...a family member can be a prodigal child (that's the story Jesus tells), but they always remain a child in that family. Just as the son "came to his senses" and went home to a father who was waiting for him, so God waits for us, his adopted child, when we go rogue. We don't fail to be a family member.
It is important to make this distinction between a disciple and a family member. Disciples come and go. Family members are always family.
Since God is the one who starts and finishes the adoption of the children he chooses to adopt, those former orphans are now family. God keeps his family...even if they go prodigal for a season.
If someone walks away for good...they are not family. They are merely disciples who moved on to listen to a different voice.
 
Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
I disagree. A disciple does not equal a person who has been saved and redeemed. A disciple is just someone who sits under the teaching of a person and learns from them. Disciples come and go.
When a person is reconciled and redeemed, they are adopted as children of the King. They get a name change. They get all the benefits and responsibilities of being in the family.
Now...a family member can be a prodigal child (that's the story Jesus tells), but they always remain a child in that family. Just as the son "came to his senses" and went home to a father who was waiting for him, so God waits for us, his adopted child, when we go rogue. We don't fail to be a family member.
It is important to make this distinction between a disciple and a family member. Disciples come and go. Family members are always family.
Since God is the one who starts and finishes the adoption of the children he chooses to adopt, those former orphans are now family. God keeps his family...even if they go prodigal for a season.
If someone walks away for good...they are not family. They are merely disciples who moved on to listen to a different voice.
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Scripture please supporting your assertion that...

Disciples ≠ followers of Jesus
 
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S

Samuels

Member
Site Supporter
Walpole said:
Scripture please supporting your (Particular's) assertion that...
Disciples ≠ followers of Jesus
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Judas was called a disciple, but he probably was a tare, and ultimately he fell away.

If BACs can fall away, why couldn't Judas have been a true follower and fell away?
Who knows if Judas ever really believed in Jesus and His Gospel.
Maybe it says (one way of the other) in the Gospels.

Jesus plants wheat, while Satan plants tares/weeds (ref: Matthew?)
So IMO, tares can never become BACs.
 
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Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Samuels said:
Judas was called a disciple, but he probably was a tare, and ultimately he fell away.

If BACs can fall away, why couldn't Judas have been a true follower and fell away?
Who knows if Judas ever really believed in Jesus and His Gospel.
Maybe it says (one way of the other) in the Gospels.

Jesus plants wheat, while Satan plants tares/weeds (ref: Matthew?)
IMO, tares can never become BACs.
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You cannot fall away from that which you never belonged. Judas, before he would "fall away" (Acts 1:25), was explicitly called the following by our Blessed Lord / Scripture:

- A "disciple" (Mt. 10:1)
- An "Apostle" (Mt. 10:2-4)
- "One of the twelve" (Luke 22:47)
- Sent "to proclaim the Kingdom of God" (Luke 9:2)
- "Chosen" (John 6:70)
- A "sheep" (Mt. 10:16)
- A "friend" (Mt. 26:50)

Furthermore, Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ...

"So Jesus said to them [the twelve], 'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28

Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace. The fact that Scripture tells us people can fall away destroys Calvinism.
 
S

Samuels

Member
Site Supporter
Walpole said:
"So Jesus said to them [the twelve],
'Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration,
when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory,
you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'" Matthew 19:28
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Followed physically or spiritually?
To follow Jesus, one must be a true believer.
So, how many of the 12 were true believers and followers of Jesus?

Even some honest-to-goodness BACs don't follow Jesus.
Many of them choose to be habitual sinners!
The churches today are filled with them.
Perhaps, mostly because their churches tell them they are saved.

However, most can still make it into heaven, if they repent.
But, they have to understand what repentance really means.

Paul says many times that ...
BACs have been set FREE of sin, BACs no longer have to sin!
If they do sin, it is by their free-will choice!
And sin results in spiritual death.
 
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Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
Walpole said:
I presume this is a joke and that you are not actually trying to argue that the disciples of Jesus are those who do not believe in Him?
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The elect believe. The non-elect don't believe. Read the gospels and see all who leave Jesus because they don't believe. Jesus had many disciples who left. He had one of the twelve who left because he didn't believe. Judas vision of what Jesus would become was not what Jesus was doing. Judas never had faith to believe Jesus. Judas left.
Disciples aren't always elect. The elect are always disciples.
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Samuels said:
If BACs can fall away, why couldn't Judas have been a true follower and fell away?
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Born again Christians cannot fall away from that which they are preserved to.

Christ's true sheep are kept by the power of God, which is perfect ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
Christ shall lose none of that which the Father has given Him ( John 6:39 ), for they shall not come into condemnation and are forever passed from death unto life ( John 5:24 ).
 
S

Samuels

Member
Site Supporter
Dave Gilbert said:
Born again Christians cannot fall away from that which they are preserved to.
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Born again Christians have the free will to do whatever they please!

So, those Jewish believers in Galatians 5:4 were never born again,
but somehow managed to become estranged from Christ and fall from grace!
(Perhaps, they took an advanced Houdini class.)

And I don't wish to offend (by forgetting) those believers in Hebrews 10:36-39,
who drew back (from the faith) to perdition, i.e. they didn't endure in the faith!
(There are about a dozen NT verses re: the necessity of enduring in the faith
in order to qualify for eternal life ... because salvation is a process!)

Would you care to see about 8 "conditional salvation" NT verses,
which all have a big "IF" in them?
IF you carry on with your faith, and do such and such, you will be saved.

NONE of the many WARNING verses in the NT were written to non-believers!

Satan is the biggest liar and deceiver in the history of the world,
and his #1 priority has been to bring as many people as possible
into hell with himself and his fallen angels ... and this includes Christians!
 
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Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Samuels said:
And I don't wish to offend (by forgetting) those believers in Hebrews 10:36-39,
who drew back (from the faith) to perdition, i.e. they didn't endure in the faith!
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They didn't draw back to perdition, because true believers cannot do that.
Unlike Judas, they would never betray their most trusted Friend.

In addition, they cannot sin ( in their spirit ), because they have His seed in them ( the new nature ) and they are born of God ( 1 John 3:9 ).

" Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." ( Hebrews 10:38-39 ).

True believers who have believed on Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:9 ), are sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30 ).

No man can break that seal ( John 10:28-29 ) and nothing can separate them from the love of God ( Romans 8:31-39 ).
It is the seal of God, who keeps the believer by His own perfect power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), not ours.

Samuels said:
Would you care to see about 8 "conditional salvation" NT verses,
which all have a big "IF" in them?
IF you carry on with your faith, and do such and such, you will be saved.
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I don't need to see them...I already know what they mean.

I agree that IF believers carry on with their faith and do such and such, they will be saved..
All the "if" passages are directed at the professing body of Christ...everyone who professes Christ, but may or may not actually possess His Spirit.
IF they do the things contained in those passages, it is because they are saved and because they do all things by the Spirit of God that works in them ( Galatians 5:16-18, Philippians 2:13 ).

True evidence = True believer.
False evidence = False believer, sown in the "field" of Christ's body by His enemy, the devil.

Please see, once again, the parables of the wheat and tares, and the parable of the sower.
Both are explained, in-depth, in Matthew 13.
Samuels said:
NONE of the many WARNING verses in the NT were written to non-believers!
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I agree.
They were written to professing believers, telling them that IF they do those things, then they truly are saved and will be saved from His wrath.
Samuels said:
Satan is the biggest liar and deceiver in the history of the world,
and his #1 priority has been to bring as many people as possible
into hell with himself and his fallen angels ... and this includes Christians!
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Nothing about salvation is left up to "chance" or to man's fickle and weak will.

Salvation is entirely of God, start to finish, and was never reliant upon anything a man does or desires...
It is a gift.

Contrary to popular belief, mankind is not "caught in the middle" between Satan and God.
The devil has his children, and God has His ( 1 John 3:10 ).

Satan cannot take from God, that which was never his to take, and he is powerless to do anything unless the Lord allows it.
 
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