The result of loving Jesus and keeping His commandments

[Dave G]

There is a saying treat those the way you want to be treated.

" Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 ).

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." ( Luke 6:31 ).

"Love your neighbor" ( Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8 ).
The Lord commands believers to love our neighbor, and as much as lies within us, to be at peace with all men ( Romans 12:18 ).

Here's a challenge pull up one of the Westboro Baptist teachings you don't agree with.

It's not the teachings of the Bible that are the problem, and this really has nothing to do with Westboro Baptist church, does it?

To me, you see "Calvinism" as the problem, despite all the other people and groups in the world that are maligning and persecuting others, and are not "Calvinists";
True or false doctrine does not dictate how people treat others, whether good or bad...
Man's heart does, and his willingness or unwillingness to believe and obey God's commands.

Do you persecute those that believe as I do?
I hope not, because then you would be guilty of hypocrisy ( Romans 2:1, Romans 2:21-23 ), wouldn't you?
Therefore, I encourage you to look at the real problem...the human heart and how corrupt and untrustworthy it is.

Respectfully, I have said all that I can say to you on this subject.
To me, you have it firmly fixed in your mind that what you call "Calvinism" is the problem, and not a lack of the Holy Spirit in many of those who believe and teach it.
Again, doctrine does not dictate a person's behavior...the human heart does ( Luke 6:45 ).

This is my last reply in this thread.


Again, I encourage you to seek the Lord through His word and through prayer.
There is much that God has to show the believer in His precious book.


May God bless you richly, sir.

 

[utilyan]

That salvation is entirely of God?
That is what the Bible teaches.

That we, as believers, are to treat others as we would be treated?
That is what the Bible teaches.

According to the above, which part of what the Bible teaches, is Westboro not believing and following?

You've misunderstood, Utilyan.
God does not have an unconditional hatred for people.

The condition that He hates, is sin.
God hates those who sin against Him, and refuse to repent.

He desires to show mercy ( Hosea 6:6, Matthew 9:13 )...
That is why He saved any of us, because of His desire to show mercy.
But that mercy is also shown to whosoever He wants ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), and is not dependent upon our desires.

If you truly desire mercy from Him because you recognize your sin, the fact that you've offended Him and the fact that He is your only hope for salvation from those sins, it's because He has desired to show you that mercy and by revealing your need of a Saviour to you.

Continue in His word, Utilyan, there's much more to it than simply John 3:16.

" Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 ).

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." ( Luke 6:31 ).

"Love your neighbor" ( Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8 ).
The Lord commands believers to love our neighbor, and as much as lies within us, to be at peace with all men ( Romans 12:18 ).

You really don't understand, do you?

It's not the teachings of the Bible that are the problem.
It's your acceptance of them.

It seems that a God that does as He will, and saves whom He will, is what you are objecting to.
This has nothing to do with Westboro Baptist church, does it?

Again, I encourage you to seek the Lord through His word and through prayer.

"According to the above, which part of what the Bible teaches, is Westboro not believing and following?"

No Gilbert, you are not telling me why the westboro baptist teaching is wrong. Read carefully.

It is your accusation the westboro baptist got it wrong. SIMPLY SIMPLY tell us what teaching do they have wrong.



"You've misunderstood, Utilyan.
God does not have an unconditional hatred for people.

The condition that He hates, is sin."

No Dave, Prior to your creation he ordained to love and the reprobate he ordained to hate.

You would say that you are no better than the reprobate. Unconditional election would say " God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons."

Now you are saying well he made his choice to hate the reprobate because he had worst quality than you.

Thats not going to work buddy. Your understanding of God played favorites aside from anything you do.

 

[utilyan]

" Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 ).

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." ( Luke 6:31 ).

"Love your neighbor" ( Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8 ).
The Lord commands believers to love our neighbor, and as much as lies within us, to be at peace with all men ( Romans 12:18 ).

You really don't understand, do you?

It's not the teachings of the Bible that are the problem.
It's your acceptance of them, from my perspective.
It seems that a God that does as He will, and saves whom He will, is what you are objecting to.

This has nothing to do with Westboro Baptist church, does it?

Respectfully, I have said all that I can say to you on this matter
To me, you have it firmly fixed in your mind that what you call "Calvinism" is the problem, and not a lack of the Holy Spirit in many of those who believe and teach it.

This is my last reply in this thread.


Again, I encourage you to seek the Lord through His word and through prayer.
There is much that God has to show the believer in His precious book.


May God bless you richly, sir.

I simply said, When you get on the level of westboro baptists, thats perfect Calvinism.

You challenged it was not. I challenged back to show me what teaching of theirs is wrong,

You provide nothing and flee. CAUSE THEY ARE RIGHT.



"It seems that a God that does as He will, and saves whom He will, is what you are objecting to."
Nope.

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. The difference is I don't jump the gun to assume he won't have mercy on all, some, or NONE.

I don't shut the door to judgement and insist ergo someone has to be damned.



Dave Gilbert will run over with a car on whom he will run over with a car. Does that mean you are guaranteed absolutely to run someone over? You might run over everyone, some, NONE.

Judgement is not my department it is God's. You have God limited to your speculations.

In fact if God wanted to save people based on their willful free choices he now lacks that capacity.

Let me word it this way...... If God wanted to run a system that wasn't Calvinism, COULD GOD DO THIS? Does God have this OPTION? Calvinism can't accept that he is stuck on the terms and box of Calvinism.

 

[Particular]

I simply said, When you get on the level of westboro baptists, thats perfect Calvinism.

You challenged it was not. I challenged back to show me what teaching of theirs is wrong,

You provide nothing and flee. CAUSE THEY ARE RIGHT.



"It seems that a God that does as He will, and saves whom He will, is what you are objecting to."
Nope.

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. The difference is I don't jump the gun to assume he won't have mercy on all, some, or NONE.

I don't shut the door to judgement and insist ergo someone has to be damned.



Dave Gilbert will run over with a car on whom he will run over with a car. Does that mean you are guaranteed absolutely to run someone over? You might run over everyone, some, NONE.

Judgement is not my department it is God's. You have God limited to your speculations.

In fact if God wanted to save people based on their willful free choices he now lacks that capacity.

Let me word it this way...... If God wanted to run a system that wasn't Calvinism, COULD GOD DO THIS? Does God have this OPTION? Calvinism can't accept that he is stuck on the terms and box of Calvinism.

What does this have to do with the thread topic?

 

[Samuels]

I believe and teach, "IF Saved, Always Saved".
From my perspective, this comes from a proper understanding of Scripture that salvation ( God's decision to save someone ) occurred long before they were born ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-6 ), and they were notified of their salvation by the preaching of the Gospel ( Romans 10:8-20 ) and the Holy Spirit's "calling" ( Romans 8:29-30 ). This also takes into account the parables of the "tares", as well as the parable of the sower, the wedding and all the other parables about abiding in the vine, the prodigal son, etc.

Your Romans 8:29-30 has conditions attached for one to be ultimately glorified:
they must LOVE God, and be CALLED according to His purpose.

Okay, you believe that everyone who was initially saved was called, etc.
But, if they actually LOVE God, they will OBEY Jesus' commandments,
and they will NOT remain or become habitual sinners.

1 John 3:9 says true believers CANNOT sin.
The Greek indicates they cannot continue to sin, i.e. be habitual sinners.
Gee, they may even be OVERCOMERS and make it to heaven!
Jesus defines who an overcomer is in Revelation 3:21.

The whole of the NT is about conditional salvation.

 

[Samuels]

Arminius : Before the beginning of time, God looked ahead and chose the elect out of His foreknowledge.
IOW the choice of election was made before the passage of time began - God looked into the future and chose those who would accept His Son as His elect. John 1:12.
Calvin : Again, before the beginning of time, God chose the elect after the counsel of His own will by decree not by foreknowledge. Ephesians 1:11.

Whichever one is correct ... it does not matter ...
the elected believer has the God-given free will to reject God's salvation.
Who wants to see the "rejecting God" NT verses?
Do those who reject God (and His plan, and His rules) get into heaven?

Believers are not robots.
They may choose to live a life of sin.
The NT is chuck full of warnings about falling away from the faith, etc. etc.

 

[HankD]

Whichever one is correct ... it does not matter ...
the elected believer has the God-given free will to reject God's salvation.
Who wants to see the "rejecting God" NT verses?
Do those who reject God (and His plan, and His rules) get into heaven?

Believers are not robots.
They may choose to live a life of sin.
The NT is chuck full of warnings about falling away from the faith, etc. etc.

we must wait for most of these answers - there are far too many armchair theologians nowadays.
if you don't believe like they do - into the Lake of Fire you go.

also
too many folks want to tell God what HE can do, where HE can go, what HE can say, blah, blah, blah...

i get on ROKU and its incredible how many prophets, theologians, priests, pastors, preachers... there are.

even Jim Bakker

 

[Walpole]

Calvinists: What happens when sheep fall away entirely?

 

[HankD]

Calvinists: What happens when sheep fall away entirely?

The Shepherd goes after them entirely

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[Walpole]

The Shepherd goes after them entirely

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

What about the ones that get away / fall away / become lost?

 

[Particular]

Calvinists: What happens when sheep fall away entirely?

John 10:11,14-18,25-30 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

 

[Walpole]

John 10:11,14-18,25-30 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

What about the ones that get away / fall away / become lost / no longer follow?

 

[Particular]

What about the ones that get away / fall away / become lost / no longer follow?

What does the text say?

John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Read God's word. God answers your questions.

 

[HankD]

What about the ones that get away / fall away / become lost?

Have you read John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress? I believe its on the web (also Groans From Hell).

The Project Gutenberg E-text of The Pilgrim's Progress, by John Bunyan.

It's somewhat autobiographical - he was a very religious member of the Church of England - one of his statements about his self assessment was "I felt no man in England served God better than i".

then one day as he was walking through a field he was struck down with the thoughts of his personal wickedness and so it was for several years of despair and anguish that he felt he could never be redeemed back to God doomed for eternity.

He was struck with a very heavy and protracted experience of conviction of sin, in Pilgrim's Progress he calls it the "slough of despond". He thought he had fallen away and irredeemable.

What his problem was he thought he was in with God big time because of his service and good works to Him.

He became a tinker working with his hands repairing pots and pans.

His awakening was slow and fitful but he emerged as one of the giants of the Church.

 

[Walpole]

What does the text say?

John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Read God's word. God answers your questions.

Great example! In John 6 which you reference, we read about Jesus' disciples following Him. But after Jesus gives them the bread of life discourse which you quote, these same disciples decide that Jesus' language is just too intolerable for them and they choose to leave Him, no longer following Him.

"On hearing it, many of his disciples said, 'This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?'...From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." (John 6:60, 66)


So I'll ask again, what about the ones that get away / fall away / become lost / no longer follow?

 

[HankD]

So I'll ask again, what about the ones that get away / fall away / become lost / no longer follow?

There ain't no such critter in the sense you mean.

some "followed Him" quid pro quo then when He stopped giving them what they were after or never followed through on their expectations of Him, then they retracted their allegiance and quit "following" Him.

 

[Walpole]

There ain't no such critter in the sense you mean.

some "followed Him" quid pro quo then when He stopped giving them what they were after or never followed through on their expectations of Him, then they retracted their allegiance and quit "following" Him.

Make up your mind. Either there "ain't no such critter" or they (the sheep / disciples) retracted their allegiance and quit following Him.

--> "On hearing it, many of his disciples said, 'This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?'...From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." (John 6:60, 66)

 

[Particular]

Great example! In John 6 which you reference, we read about Jesus' disciples following Him. But after Jesus gives them the bread of life discourse which you quote, these same disciples decide that Jesus' language is just too intolerable for them and they choose to leave Him, no longer following Him.

"On hearing it, many of his disciples said, 'This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?'...From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." (John 6:60, 66)


So I'll ask again, what about the ones that get away / fall away / become lost / no longer follow?

The people who left were not his sheep. Jesus promises his sheep that he will "never leave you, nor forsake you." He promises that all whom the Father gives him, he will keep.
The text answers your questions. You are just looking for a loophole to stop God from being the Supreme Leader.

 

[Walpole]

The people who left were not his sheep. Jesus promises his sheep that he will "never leave you, nor forsake you." He promises that all whom the Father gives him, he will keep.
The text answers your questions. You are just looking for a loophole to stop God from being the Supreme Leader.

No loopholes. Sometimes sheep get lost. Sometimes they return, sometimes they don't. (e.g. Judas Iscariot)

Disciples are followers of Jesus, no? Sheep are metaphors for the saved, no? John 6:66 says the many of His disciples "turned back and no longer followed him."

I'm trying to figure out how Calvinists reconcile sheep getting lost.

 

[HankD]

Make up your mind.

Make up your own. not all the sheep are sheep, they look like sheep but are goats. BTW i am not a devotee of Calvin.