The role of the wife.

[Brother Shane]

Yes, but according to scripture and the angel, he took her as his wife before Jesus was born. He "knew" her not, until after Jesus was born.

What are you getting at?

You need to get the "Greek" definition of fornication and see that it also covers adultery. This couple was married, yet Jesus used the term of fornication in the first part for the same couple and adultery later for the same couple.

Jesus used the first word, fornication, to mean premarital sex. Want to know how I know why? Because no where else in the Bible did He advocate divorce. That's why! I also know He used it in that sense because if the words were meant to mean the same thing in that verse, then only one word would have been used. Like in Galatations... do you think He meant the same thing when He separated fornication and adultery in the same verse?

We are discussing where Jesus did put it for our learning. You will have to ask Him why its not elsewhere. But if all Jesus had said and done had of been written, I suppose the world would not contain the books.

Is that all you got? Because if all Jesus had said and done had been written, the world would not contain the books? That is your excuse for it being no where else when Jesus spoke about divorce? I have the answer: it is because He was speaking about the Jews and no where else does He mention "fornication" as a reason for divorce because He won't allow it.

I explain that Jesus used the two different words, for the selfsame people, if the translators got it correct. Also, if fornication is for premarital sex, how come Jesus used it for a married person???

What, when, and where?

 

[Brother Shane]

Give me scripture that Matt is only addressing Jewish customs???

It is not just Jewish customs -- that could even be used for today! Has you ever been engaged? That can imply for today just as well as it did then.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is not just Jewish customs -- that could even be used for today! Has you ever been engaged? That can imply for today just as well as it did then.

Yes, but He was teaching His Apostles His own everlasting Gospel which included the beatitudes and also "save the the cause of fornication". His Gospel is to the "whole" world. Know how I know, I have read it..........

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

What are you getting at?



Jesus used the first word, fornication, to mean premarital sex. Want to know how I know why? Because no where else in the Bible did He advocate divorce. That's why! I also know He used it in that sense because if the words were meant to mean the same thing in that verse, then only one word would have been used. Like in Galatations... do you think He meant the same thing when He separated fornication and adultery in the same verse?

4202
porneia
porneia
por-ni'-ah
from porneuw - porneuo 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.

Show me "premartial sex" anywhere in the Greek definition!!!


Is that all you got? Because if all Jesus had said and done had been written, the world would not contain the books? That is your excuse for it being no where else when Jesus spoke about divorce? I have the answer: it is because He was speaking about the Jews and no where else does He mention "fornication" as a reason for divorce because He won't allow it.



What, when, and where?

[/font][/font]

Matt, the very scripture we been discussing all along. You do believe the NT was written in Greek first do you not???

Maybe here you can show me "premartial sex" for "fornication"???

Pronunciation: por-ni'-ah
Origin: from 4203
Reference: TDNT - 6:579,918
PrtSpch:
In Greek: porneiav 6, porneiai 2, porneia 2
In NET: immorality 6, immoral 2, sexual 1, immoralities 1
In AV: fornication 26
Count: 26
Definition: 1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; \\#Mr 10:11,12\\
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively,
idolatry:-fornication.
see GREEK for 4203

BBob,

 

[dan e.]

Why do you bring up my age? I sometimes wonder if we happened to be in agreeance, if my age would have ever been brought up?

Why are you so shocked it is brought up after the way you talk around here???

 

[Brother Shane]

Yes, but He was teaching His Apostles His own everlasting Gospel which included the beatitudes and also "save the the cause of fornication". His Gospel is to the "whole" world. Know how I know, I have read it..........

BBob,

Look, that doesn't pop the balloon. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience. Like I said, even if you WANT to put it in your terms, which, would contradict everything Jesus ever said about divorce and would contradict "what God hath joined together, let no man put asunder" and would break the vow you made to God "until death do us part" -- no where did it permit divorce! All it would say is that the man would not be responsible for the fornication! It never gave permission to divorce -- even if your terms!

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob,

Look, that doesn't pop the balloon. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience. Like I said, even if you WANT to put it in your terms, which, would contradict everything Jesus ever said about divorce and would contradict "what God hath joined together, let no man put asunder" and would break the vow you made to God "until death do us part" -- no where did it permit divorce! All it would say is that the man would not be responsible for the fornication! It never gave permission to divorce -- even if your terms!

Are you kidding, who were all the other books of the NT written to what audience??? Could you please tell me that??

Show me "premartial sex for fornication", please??

Maybe here you can show me "premartial sex" for "fornication"???

Quote:
Pronunciation: por-ni'-ah
Origin: from 4203
Reference: TDNT - 6:579,918
PrtSpch:
In Greek: porneiav 6, porneiai 2, porneia 2
In NET: immorality 6, immoral 2, sexual 1, immoralities 1
In AV: fornication 26
Count: 26
Definition: 1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; \\#Mr 10:11,12\\
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively,
idolatry:-fornication.
see GREEK for 4203

BBob,

 

[LadyEagle]

Well, if the book of Matthew was written for a "Jewish audience," why are we even bothring to include it in our Bible or care what Jesus said in that book? And why was it written in Greek? :laugh:

 

[Brother Shane]

Show me "premarital sex" anywhere in the Greek definition!!!

Perhaps you can type in "adultery" the way you did "fornication" and show me "sex out of marriage" or the like?

Maybe here you can show me "premarital sex" for "fornication"???

Yeah, kind of like you did above. :laugh:

The 'Lectric Law Library

At one time, the unlawful carnal knowledge of an unmarried person with another, whether the latter be married or unmarried. When the party is married, the offence, as to him or her, is known by the name of adultery. However, fornication is included in every case of adultery, as a larceny is included in robbery.

Currently, the term is used to refer to sexual intercourse in the general sense, whether lawful or not.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Fornication
(n.)
Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery.



(n.)
Incest.



(n.)
Idolatry.



(n.)
Adultery.


Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia

Fornication, or simple fornication, is a term which refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other. In contrast adultery is consensual sex where one or both of the partners are married to someone else.
The origin of the word derives from Latin. The word fornix means "an archway" or "vault" (in Rome, prostitutes could be solicited there). More directly, fornicatio means "done in the archway"; thus an euphemism for prostitution.

Fornication is dealt with differently in various religions, societies and cultures.




Babylon French-English

fornication
n. sexual intercourse between two people who are not married to each other



(all of this was returned when I performed a greek word search of "fornication")

 

[Brother Bob]

Perhaps you can type in "adultery" the way you did "fornication" and show me "sex out of marriage" or the like?



Yeah, kind of like you did above. :laugh:

The 'Lectric Law Library

At one time, the unlawful carnal knowledge of an unmarried person with another, whether the latter be married or unmarried. When the party is married, the offence, as to him or her, is known by the name of adultery. However, fornication is included in every case of adultery, as a larceny is included in robbery.

Caught by your own definition................


Currently, the term is used to refer to sexual intercourse in the general sense, whether lawful or not.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Fornication
(n.)
Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery.



(n.)
Incest.



(n.)
Idolatry.



(n.)
Adultery.


Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia

Fornication, or simple fornication, is a term which refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other. In contrast adultery is consensual sex where one or both of the partners are married to someone else.
The origin of the word derives from Latin. The word fornix means "an archway" or "vault" (in Rome, prostitutes could be solicited there). More directly, fornicatio means "done in the archway"; thus an euphemism for prostitution.

Fornication is dealt with differently in various religions, societies and cultures.




Babylon French-English

fornication
n. sexual intercourse between two people who are not married to each other



(all of this was returned when I performed a greek word search of "fornication")

I failed to see any of it in the Greek text, sorry.

Oh yea, choose man's way over God's way as most follow. Man's way will not get you to Heaven. Scripture was written in Greek in the NT and I gave you the definition, but you will not have the orginal word, but some word changed by man over the years. sad!

BBob,

 

[Brother Shane]

Look, I did not even need to pull those four references. First, we clearly see in the Bible that adultery and fornication are two different terms! Second, when they were used in the same verse, we saw they had two different meanings.

Now, I'll repeat... (given you the benefit of the doubt), even IF they meant the same thing in that first -- it still did not give you the right to divorce because of fornication. It simply stated the man would not be responsible for the wife's fornication.

That scripture has destroyed a lot of marriages my friend, and it is a shame that the pastors have it so.

 

[Brother Shane]

However, fornication is included in every case of adultery, as a larceny is included in robbery.

Caught by your own definition................

Note the example they gave at the end... "as a larceny is included in robbery." This is basically telling us that as "unlawful thinking" is included in robbery, "unlawful thinking" or "lustful thinking" is included in adultery as it is in fornication <---- which is wrong.


That does not mean fornication is adultery.

 

[Brother Shane]

And I failed to see the greek text show me that adultery was sex outside the bounds of marriage! :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

Look, I did not even need to pull those four references. First, we clearly see in the Bible that adultery and fornication are two different terms! Second, when they were used in the same verse, we saw they had two different meanings.

Now, I'll repeat... (given you the benefit of the doubt), even IF they meant the same thing in that first -- it still did not give you the right to divorce because of fornication. It simply stated the man would not be responsible for the wife's fornication.

That scripture has destroyed a lot of marriages my friend, and it is a shame that the pastors have it so.

I know some of our own, who hold the way you do, and I do not have any trouble with them at all. They will not baptize a person, who put away their spouse for fornication, and I will. They accept my work, and I accept theirs. They take care of their church, and I take care of ours.
If you want to hold to what you believe, I will not condemn you, but ask you to be open minded, for the time will come that it will really get close to you, and you will wrestle with this all your life, as I do. So, continue on with your studies, but don't be so rigid, because we do see through a glass darkly here, but when we get to heaven, we will see face to face. God gives understanding to whom He wishes, on any given subject. I have not met the man who knows it all, and I never will, until I get to Heaven.

I am not your enemy.

BBob,

 

[gb93433]

And I failed to see the greek text show me that adultery was sex outside the bounds of marriage! :laugh:

Read the books of James in a Greek NT and Malachi in the LXX.

 

[EdSutton]

And I failed to see the greek text show me that adultery was sex outside the bounds of marriage! :laugh:

“Can you speak Greek?” (Ac. 21:37b2 - NKJV)

(FTR, Most posting here cannot, nor can I, although I can usually manage to fight my way through Koine Greek, with a great deal of difficulty, in reading.)

Over almost 60 years, I only managed to become fairly fluent in the three local languages usually spoken in my area, namely English, 'Redneck', and B*S*, and usually recognize these three with ease.

One will not find either the words "adultery" or "fornication" in the Greek language, as they are both English words, for the benefit of all the "'Greek-scholar' 'wannabes'" on this board.

BTW, Brother Shane, are you going to responed and answer the two questions I asked you in post #226, so I can respond to a question you asked me that led to that post? Just wonderin'.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

“Can you speak Greek?” (Ac. 21:37b2 - NKJV)

(FTR, Most posting here cannot, nor can I, although I can usually manage to fight my way through Koine Greek, with a great deal of difficulty, in reading.)

Over almost 60 years, I only managed to become fairly fluent in the three local languages usually spoken in my area, namely English, 'Redneck', and B*S*, and usually recognize these three with ease.

One will not find either the words "adultery" or "fornication" in the Greek language, as they are both English words, for the benefit of all the "'Greek-scholar' 'wannabes'" on this board.

Ed

Ed that is a "no brainer" IMO. I think that is why we have the Lexicon to translate between the two languages. If all the words in the English were also used in the Greek, then we would not need a translation would we. I too, use the tools given to me by different sources to find the meanings of words in the Greek.

Pronunciation: por-ni'-ah
Origin: from 4203
Reference: TDNT - 6:579,918
PrtSpch:
In Greek: porneiav 6, porneiai 2, porneia 2
In NET: immorality 6, immoral 2, sexual 1, immoralities 1
In AV: fornication 26
Count: 26
Definition: 1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; \\#Mr 10:11,12\\
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively,
idolatry:-fornication.
see GREEK for 4203

Now we all could be the biggest fools every came along and these translations are far from the truth, how would we know, no being fluent in Greek............

Ed, I was wondering if a married person can not commit fornication, then how come this scripture tells us it is possible, do you know????

1Cr 7:2Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Seems to me this scripture is saying to these "married" people "to flee fornication, let every man have his own wife".

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

And I failed to see the greek text show me that adultery was sex outside the bounds of marriage! :laugh:

This scripture shows that fornication is inside the bounds of marriage, also.

1Cr 7:2Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

BBob,

 

[Cutter]

This scripture shows that fornication is inside the bounds of marriage, also.

1Cr 7:2Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

BBob,

Brother Bob, could this verse not mean that to avoid being overcome by sexual urges and engaging in fornication that one needs to be married so that their companion can satisfy them in this manner, instead of living a promiscuous single life, i.e. fornicating?

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob, could this verse not mean that to avoid being overcome by sexual urges and engaging in fornication that one needs to be married so that their companion can satisfy them in this manner, instead of living a promiscuous single life, i.e. fornicating?

I take the scripture to be to the married. IMO




1: Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2: Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3: Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4: The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.


BBob,