The role of the wife.

[Brother Bob]

Who lived together out of wedlock? I never said that Matthew has nothing to do with us, sir, so keep such accusations out of your posts. I said that the scripture you supplied me with -- SCRIPTURE -- not BOOK, referred to the Jewish customs.

Maybe you could provide some proof that it was just Jewish customs? If I understand you right, that one scripture is "Jewish customs", but the rest of Matt: is to all of us, is that right? How did you happen to pick out that one.

Matt;
1: The book of the generation of Jesus Christ

KJMatt.05


"1": And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

"2": And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

"3": Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"4": Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

"5": Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

"6": Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

"7": Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

"8": Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

"9": Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

"10": Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"11": Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

"12": Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

"13": Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

"14": Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

"15": Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

"16": Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

"17": Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

"18": For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"19": Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

"20": For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"21": Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

"22": But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

"23": Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

"24": Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

"25": Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

"26": Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"27": Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

"28": But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

"29": And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

"30": And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

"31": It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

"32": But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


This chapter includes the beatitudes, were they a Jewish custom also?? Also, while teaching, Jesus says our righteous is to exceed the Pharasees, did not the Pharasees practice the Jewish customs???


BBob,

 

[Brother Shane]

Maybe you could provide some proof that it was just Jewish customs? If I understand you right, that one scripture is "Jewish customs", but the rest of Matt: is to all of us, is that right? How did you happen to pick out that one.

If you new how Joseph and Mary were married, and believed that the book of Matthew showed GREAT Jewish interest, and saw that Jesus never allowed divorce under any circumstances except during the betrothal period -- you would not need anything more than that. You can not just take a scripture and base your whole philosophy on it without reading scriptures of it's kind elsewhere in the Bible.

When you marry, you say "death do us part" -- not "fornication do us part". You made that vow before God. Do you excpet Him to make an exception for you?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Do you excpet Him to make an exception for you?

Why I don't know Shane, but I'm thinking my sins and all my sins, past, present and future, were forgiven under the blood of Christ. I may have to suffer the earthly consequences for my "sins", but God has already forgiven them. IF God can us, why can't we forgive each other and show some compassion while we're at it instead of lecturing and shouting hellfire and brimstone at folks who've already been burnt?!!!

 

[Brother Bob]

If you new how Joseph and Mary were married, and believed that the book of Matthew showed GREAT Jewish interest, and saw that Jesus never allowed divorce under any circumstances except during the betrothal period -- you would not need anything more than that. You can not just take a scripture and base your whole philosophy on it without reading scriptures of it's kind elsewhere in the Bible.

When you marry, you say "death do us part" -- not "fornication do us part". You made that vow before God. Do you excpet Him to make an exception for you?

I have been trying to tell you that He did make an exception for me and you and all. "saving the cause of fornication". Jesus knew what He was doing when He put that scripture in the Bible for our learning, its just some refuse to accept it. I can't help that, you will have to learn for yourself.

You refuse to accept a scripture that is listed right with the beatitudes.........duh.

BBob,

 

[Brother Shane]

Brother Bob,

It is not the fact that Matthew shows great interests to Jewish customs -- that helps me prove my point in the long run, but it's the fact the Jesus says "fornication" and "adultery" in the same scripture. That tells us there is TWO DIFFERENT MEANINGS suggested in the scripture.

Fornication, in the Bible, means two things: 1) premarital sex and 2) general sexual misconduct. I'll give you an example of such. For premarital sex, (John 8:41-42) Jesus told the Pharisees that He was not born out of fornication, meaning "premarital sex". The Pharisees accused Jesus of being such -- "ye do the deeds of your father" -- such as "premarital sex" because Mary was not "married" when she conceived. Read 1 Corinthians 7:1-2 "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife”. Paul is telling the men that are not married not be me tempted by fornication -- premarital sexual intercourse, yet get a wife.

Galatians 5:19 and Mark 7:21 demonstrate general sexual sins.

Matthew 5:32 is used with the word 'adultery' in its on verse -- demonstrating two different meanings of the words.

The betrothed couples were even called husband and wife -- Mary and Joseph for example. Their "engagement" could only be ended by divorce. In Matthew 1:19 -- you see that Joseph wanted to divorce Mary because he thought she had committed fornication "sex before marriage", but that was not the case.

Now, take what I told you and you'll see why Matthew uses this "exception", and then remember Matthew's Jewish influence. Then take into consideration that the "exception" is NEVER mentioned again. Then remember what God hath joined together, let NO MAN PUT ASUNDER. Period.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

It is not the fact that Matthew shows great interests to Jewish customs -- that helps me prove my point in the long run, but it's the fact the Jesus says "fornication" and "adultery" in the same scripture. That tells us there is TWO DIFFERENT MEANINGS suggested in the scripture.

Fornication, in the Bible, means two things: 1) premarital sex and 2) general sexual misconduct. I'll give you an example of such. For premarital sex, (John 8:41-42) Jesus told the Pharisees that He was not born out of fornication, meaning "premarital sex". The Pharisees accused Jesus of being such -- "ye do the deeds of your father" -- such as "premarital sex" because Mary was not "married" when she conceived. Read 1 Corinthians 7:1-2 "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife”. Paul is telling the men that are not married not be me tempted by fornication -- premarital sexual intercourse, yet get a wife.

Galatians 5:19 and Mark 7:21 demonstrate general sexual sins.

Matthew 5:32 is used with the word 'adultery' in its on verse -- demonstrating two different meanings of the words.

The betrothed couples were even called husband and wife -- Mary and Joseph for example. Their "engagement" could only be ended by divorce. In Matthew 1:19 -- you see that Joseph wanted to divorce Mary because he thought she had committed fornication "sex before marriage", but that was not the case.

Now, take what I told you and you'll see why Matthew uses this "exception", and then remember Matthew's Jewish influence. Then take into consideration that the "exception" is NEVER mentioned again. Then remember what God hath joined together, let NO MAN PUT ASUNDER. Period.

I believe scripture not your beliefs. I will again post what Jesus said. I think if you study, you will find that fornication and adultery are interchangeable.

3924
parektoV
parektos
par-ek-tos'
from para - para 3844 and ektoV - ektos 1622; near outside, i.e. besides:--except, saving, without

Jesus said "causes her to committ adultery" and you say it doesn't. Now who do you think I am going to believe?

Mat 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

I will also use Lady Eagle's post, I hope with her permission!

Pronunciation: por-ni'-ah
Origin: from 4203
Reference: TDNT - 6:579,918
PrtSpch:
In Greek: porneiav 6, porneiai 2, porneia 2
In NET: immorality 6, immoral 2, sexual 1, immoralities 1
In AV: fornication 26
Count: 26
Definition: 1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; \\#Mr 10:11,12\\
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively,
idolatry:-fornication.
see GREEK for 4203

You fellows who think you have it all figured out the differences between fornication and adultery, really give me reason to pause. The scripture itself interchanges them.



BBob,

 

[Brother Shane]

I believe scripture not your beliefs. I will again post what Jesus said. I think if you study, you will find that fornication and adultery are interchangeable.

Why would Jesus use two different words in ONE SCRIPTURE to describe the same thing? FORNICATION and ADULTERY have two different meanings!

3924
parektoV
parektos
par-ek-tos'
from para - para 3844 and ektoV - ektos 1622; near outside, i.e. besides:--except, saving, without

Jesus said "causes her to commit adultery" and you say it doesn't. Now who do you think I am going to believe?

You're confused because you're trying to tie in "saving for the cause of fornication" in with the rest of the scripture and presenting it in a present day form. Keep on Brother Bob, you'll stay confused, too. I never said such.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=32&version=kjv#32

Mat 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

I will also use Lady Eagle's post, I hope with her permission!

Pronunciation: por-ni'-ah
Origin: from 4203
Reference: TDNT - 6:579,918
PrtSpch:
In Greek: porneiav 6, porneiai 2, porneia 2
In NET: immorality 6, immoral 2, sexual 1, immoralities 1
In AV: fornication 26
Count: 26
Definition: 1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; \\#Mr 10:11,12\\
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively,
idolatry:-fornication.
see GREEK for 4203

This does NOTHING for me. What are you trying to say?

You fellows who think you have it all figured out the differences between fornication and adultery, really give me reason to pause. The scripture itself interchanges them.

How? Prove it.

 

[annsni]

FTR, superwoman8977 said nothing about either having, getting, or wanting another husband, at least so far in this thread.

Ed

Actually, she did:

Post 98 in this thread:

oh okay so because I am divorcing my husband I am to remain single and alone. I did the alone thing for years and then i met my husband and well I thought I would never have to think about being alone again and then well now I am in the situation I am in, so sorry I dont want to be alone anymore. I deserve to have someone to love and to treat me with respect. Please dont say Jesus is that person because I have heard it. I know this but I deserve to be remarried someday.

In the divorce thread:

I have met a great guy someone who will be good to me and the boys and who understands respect and how to treat people. My marriage was all about sex and the outer package there was no depth to it, no foundation at least with this guy we are making a foundation we are talking and texting we dont get to see each other alot because he is a soldier always working but we are building a foundation based on the Lord. In fact our first date was to church and then out to dinner. So if I am wrong so be it but why should I sit there broke and miserable when I can have a person in my life who loves me for me and wants to build a realtionship with me and be there for me and my kids. The door to my marriage is closed and I am moving on God has opened way better doors down this path we call life. So now go ahead and bash me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Why would Jesus use two different words in ONE SCRIPTURE to describe the same thing? FORNICATION and ADULTERY have two different meanings!



You're confused because you're trying to tie in "saving for the cause of fornication" in with the rest of the scripture and presenting it in a present day form. Keep on Brother Bob, you'll stay confused, too. I never said such.

"] 10:11,12\\
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively,
idolatry:-fornication.
see GREEK for 4203
[/url][/b]

This does NOTHING for me. What are you trying to say?

Take it all! From the Greek, not English definition.

Definition: 1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication



How? Prove it.[/quote]



First tell me what is:

fornication

and

adultery

I will answer you.

BBob,

 

[Brother Shane]

The scripture itself interchanges them.

Oh really?

Galatians 5:19 - "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,"

Fornication: 1 Corinthians 7:2 - "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, (TO BE MARRIED, NEVER MARRIED) and let every woman have her own husband."

Adultery: Luke 16:18 - "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: (MARRIED AND HAVE BEEN MARRIED) and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

BOTH OF THEM (TWO SEPARATE TERMS!): Matthew 19:9 - "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

 

[superwoman8977]

okay well heres the thing I went home last night, and did alot of thinking and came to this conclusion. If I am not divorced from a man who cheated on me, who cant treat me with the respect etc that I deserved to be treated with then the heck with it. I know on July 24th when I sign that final divorce paper and my divorce is final I am whether its "right" in all your eyes or not going to move on with my life. I have met a wonderful man and I am going to get to know him more. I am a child of God and regardless of my marriage, etc I am saved and forgiven by the blood. If this is the way you all think with this whole once married always married thing well sorry thats not me. If theres one thing that has happened since this whole divorce fiasco started and that is that my relationship with the Lord has gotten so much stronger and closer. I gave 7 years of my life to my marriage and my husband left me for someone else, there is no way I am going to live my life as a single woman for the next how many ever years struggling to make ends meet when I can have my knight in shining armor and have a life with someone. I have a realtionship with the Lord first and foremost but yes I admit I do want to date again although I dont know about marriage. Marriage just isnt in my avenue again after having a bad experience the first time and for all of you who are in the perfect marriage with the home and the devoted husband and everything let me just tell you you arent safe, it can be taken from you in a second all it takes is for one spouse to be tempted and follow up on that temptation. So go ahead judge, bash whatever but I know that I love the Lord and I have enough love in my heart to love another person and as for my husband I as of a few days will be no longe married to him and I will never consider myself married to him ever again because its over.

 

[annsni]

Matthew 19:9 - "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

In this verse, fornication is immoral sexual behavior. It is addressing the action that was done by the spouse. What if it was not done with a person of the opposite gender? Would that be termed adultery? There are numerous things that could have happened that would be termed fornication but not adultery. But what this is saying, as most of us know, that if you divorce and remarry, you commit adultery UNLESS the spouse has committed fornication.

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh really?

Galatians 5:19 - "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,"

Fornication: 1 Corinthians 7:2 - "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, (TO BE MARRIED, NEVER MARRIED) and let every woman have her own husband."

Adultery: Luke 16:18 - "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: (MARRIED AND HAVE BEEN MARRIED) and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

BOTH OF THEM (TWO SEPARATE TERMS!): Matthew 19:9 - "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

You just proved my point. Does not matter if they are married, they can commit fornication or adultery. Both are having sex with someone except your spouse, according to scripture.

Look up the Greek definitions for both and see if they don't have almost identical answers. You are consetrating on the translation and not the orginal Greek.

1 Corinthians 7:2 - "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, (TO BE MARRIED, NEVER MARRIED) and let every woman have her own husband."

Is not this married and have been married.
BBob,

 

[annsni]

okay well heres the thing I went home last night, and did alot of thinking and came to this conclusion. If I am not divorced from a man who cheated on me, who cant treat me with the respect etc that I deserved to be treated with then the heck with it. I know on July 24th when I sign that final divorce paper and my divorce is final I am whether its "right" in all your eyes or not going to move on with my life. I have met a wonderful man and I am going to get to know him more. I am a child of God and regardless of my marriage, etc I am saved and forgiven by the blood. If this is the way you all think with this whole once married always married thing well sorry thats not me. If theres one thing that has happened since this whole divorce fiasco started and that is that my relationship with the Lord has gotten so much stronger and closer. I gave 7 years of my life to my marriage and my husband left me for someone else, there is no way I am going to live my life as a single woman for the next how many ever years struggling to make ends meet when I can have my knight in shining armor and have a life with someone. I have a realtionship with the Lord first and foremost but yes I admit I do want to date again although I dont know about marriage. Marriage just isnt in my avenue again after having a bad experience the first time and for all of you who are in the perfect marriage with the home and the devoted husband and everything let me just tell you you arent safe, it can be taken from you in a second all it takes is for one spouse to be tempted and follow up on that temptation. So go ahead judge, bash whatever but I know that I love the Lord and I have enough love in my heart to love another person and as for my husband I as of a few days will be no longe married to him and I will never consider myself married to him ever again because its over.

Your husband not only committed adultery but he abandoned you. You are not tied to him and there is honestly nothing you COULD do unless God steps in and changes his heart (and heals yours). Do not think that God has said that you are bound to him forever if he leaves you. I know there are a couple of people here who say otherwise but Scripture does not.

What concerns me, though, is your hurt and because of that, your response to some things you have heard about "deserveing happiness"and that "God has closed a door and opened another one", etc. I feel that you have some work to do on your own heart and perspective on what God owes us or what we are due in life. When we realize that we deserve nothing but what we do have is by God's grace, I think that will make things less hostile and angry for you. I'll be praying for you.

 

[Brother Shane]

In this verse, fornication is immoral sexual behavior.

In this verse, it is referring to sex before marriage.

It is addressing the action that was done by the spouse.

Premarital sex

What if it was not done with a person of the opposite gender? Would that be termed adultery?

Adultery is a sexual relationship by a married or previously married person. The sex of the offending partner is irrelevant.

There are numerous things that could have happened that would be termed fornication but not adultery.

Fornication has one other meaning besides the broad term of general sexual misconduct -- and that's sex before marriage. If you do not believe me, try to put your "theory" in with the word "fornication" where Jesus told the Pharisees that He was not born out of fornication.

But what this is saying, as most of us know, that if you divorce and remarry, you commit adultery UNLESS the spouse has committed fornication

It would be impossible to commit fornication married in this sense. Fornication is being demonstrated in TWO DIFFERENT TERMS -- note the TWO DIFFERENT WORDS!

 

[Brother Bob]

In this verse, it is referring to sex before marriage.



Premarital sex



Adultery is a sexual relationship by a married or previously married person. The sex of the offending partner is irrelevant.



Fornication has one other meaning besides the broad term of general sexual misconduct -- and that's sex before marriage. If you do not believe me, try to put your "theory" in with the word "fornication" where Jesus told the Pharisees that He was not born out of fornication.



It would be impossible to commit fornication married in this sense. Fornication is being demonstrated in TWO DIFFERENT TERMS -- note the TWO DIFFERENT WORDS!

Is this scripture just to married men?

Matt.5

1. [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

BBob,

 

[Brother Shane]

This is one of those times that adultery covers the general sexual misconduct. I wrote about that earlier. It would be different if He used with fornication with it, demonstrating TWO DIFFERENT WORDS resulting in TWO DIFFERENT MEANINGS!

 

[Brother Shane]

Do note that what you quoted above was pertaining just to that scripture and NOT the whole Bible.

 

[gb93433]

[FONT=&quot]BOTH OF THEM (TWO SEPARATE TERMS!):[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Matthew 19:9 - "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."[/FONT]

You kind of missed the mark on those terms.
Sometime read James 4:4 and the book of Malachi.


You may want to pay particular attention to Is. 47:10; 57:9 and Jer. 3:9; 13:27.


The word used for fornication in 1 Cor. 7:2, is a far more inclusive word than what you suggest. It is a general term to describe any kind of sexual perversion including things other than humans too. The word used there stems from the word porneiva.


The word adultery is far more inclusive then you suggest as well. If you will look up the words adulterer and adulteress you will find it to be far more inclusive then you suggest.

 

[Brother Shane]

Yet again, the definitions I gave were used for the debated verse - not intended for the whole Bible.