The Role of Women in the Baptist Faith

[Jerome]

That passage was detailing to us though the spiritual qualifications that a Deacon's wife should have, not her to be the Deacon!

Huh? Which word used by Paul means "wife"?

He said that he wasa describing their the wives of the deacons are to be such!

You're just repeating yourself, please answer the question: Which word used by Paul means "wife"?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

He did!

I Tim. 3:11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

I see that you are cherry picking one particular translation, this translation would seem to create contradictions in other passages of the bible, ironically there is not a single other passage that could possibly be construed to give requirements for women deacons.

KJV Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

NKJV Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.

ESV Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.

NLT In the same way, their wives must be respected and must not slander others. They must exercise self-control and be faithful in everything they do.

HCSB Wives, too, must be worthy of respect, not slanderers, self-controlled, faithful in everything.

NET Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect.

 

[Yeshua1]

I see that you are cherry picking one particular translation, this translation would seem to create contradictions in other passages of the bible, ironically there is not a single other passage that could possibly be construed to give requirements for women deacons.

KJV Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

NKJV Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.

ESV Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.

NLT In the same way, their wives must be respected and must not slander others. They must exercise self-control and be faithful in everything they do.

HCSB Wives, too, must be worthy of respect, not slanderers, self-controlled, faithful in everything.

NET Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect.

Paul was not saying women can be Deacons, but wjhat qualities the male Deacons wives should have!

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

"Note that 1 Timothy 3:8-13 moves from the qualifications of overseers (1 Tim. 3:1-7) to the qualifications of deacons. It does so in these words: “Deacons likewise must be men of dignity” (1 Tim. 3:8, NASB 1995). The Greek word translated “Deacons” is Διακόνους (Diakonous). It is a masculine plural noun. A slightly different form of this word, διακόνοι [diakonoi], is used in verse 12. There it is masculine plural as well. Verses 8-9 deal with the personal character of deacons and verse 10 deals with the testing of deacons. The Γυναῖκας (Gynaikas) of verse 11 are distinguished from the Διακόνους (Diakonous) of verse 11 in two ways. This distinction is first indicated by the adverb “likewise.” The same adverb functions to distinguish “overseers” from “deacons” in 3:8. The distinction is indicated secondly by the fact that the group discussed in verse 11 are called Γυναῖκας (Gynaikas) . Verses 8-13 move from the overseers to the deacons. Verse 11 moves from the deacons’ personal qualifications to other qualifications. Verse 11 moves from the deacons themselves to their marriages (vv. 11-12a) and families (v. 12b). This order from personal to marital and then family is the same as is found in 3:1-2a (personal), 2b (marital), and 4-5 (family) with reference to overseers. The transition from personal qualifications (3:8-10) to marital and family (3:11-12) is a natural one given the pattern with the overseers. There is good reason, then, to translate Γυναῖκας (Gynaikas) as “wives.” It follows the pattern just mentioned and sets the stage for the deacons’ domestic life. It also follows a pattern in Paul that when he uses a form of γυνή (gynē) in the context of marriage the word indicates wife (e.g., 1 Tim. 5:9; Titus 1:6; Eph. 5:22; and Col. 3:22)."

"Something else is of interest. If 3:8 begins the section on deacons, it would seem awkward for Paul to intend “deaconesses” or “women” not the wives of deacons in 3:11 only to go back to deacons and their own wives in verse 12."

1 Timothy 3:11–“women” or “wives”

Of special interest to note also is, if Paul meant to describe Women Deacons in vs 11, he could have easily used the feminie form of the word deacons, but instead he chose to use the word for Wives/Women.

1 Timothy 3:11's context does not warrant the using the translation as woman instead of wives.

So no God did NOT give qualifications for women deacons Jerome.

 

[Jerome]

I see that you are cherry picking one particular translation

That's a falsehood. Wycliffe, Young's Literal, ASV, Amplified, even NASB have "women" in that verse.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

That's a falsehood. Wycliffe, Young's Literal, ASV, Amplified, even NASB have "women" in that verse.

But you didn't even acknowledge the other translations which use women.

I see that you didn't even respond to the contextual and grammatical arguments.

 

[Rippon]

Reasonable people can "stick to the Bible" and come to differing conclusions. You are a nice fella. It would be a shame for you to let your Calvinism make you arrogant.

How in the world does Calvinism impact the current discussion?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Women are not called to be pastors or elders.

I agree, based on my overall understanding of Biblical teaching, women are not to hold the office of Elder or Deacon.

Is this a distinction of Baptist doctrine or are there denominations that take the same position?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

But you didn't even acknowledge the other translations which use women.

I see that you didn't even respond to the contextual and grammatical arguments.

Sorry this should have said translations which use wives.

 

[Jerome]

Ha!
Hard to keep it all straight, isn't it?
I did ask Yeshua1/DaChaser1/JesusFan where he was getting "wife", and he did not provide a source.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Yes, men and women under the same standard.

1Ti 3:2 KJV - A bishop (G1985 - masculine noun) then must be blameless, the husband (G435 - masculine noun) of one wife (G1135 - feminine noun), vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:11 KJV - Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

1Ti 3:12 KJV - Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Not being a Greek scholar, my question is: Can the genders referenced in these verses be interchanged applying them equally?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

1Ti 3:2 KJV - A bishop (G1985 - masculine noun) then must be blameless, the husband (G435 - masculine noun) of one wife (G1135 - feminine noun), vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:11 KJV - Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

1Ti 3:12 KJV - Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Not being a Greek scholar, my question is: Can the genders referenced in these verses be interchanged applying them equally?

I don't quite understand your question.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I don't quite understand your question.

Sorry for the confusion. Hope this helps.

My question was/is based on the following from post #20:

Yes, men and women under the same standard.

1Ti 3:2 KJV - A bishop (G1985 - masculine noun) then must be blameless, the husband (G435 - masculine noun) of one wife (G1135 - feminine noun), vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:11 KJV - Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

1Ti 3:12 KJV - Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Not being a Greek scholar, my question is: Can the genders referenced in these verses be interchanged applying them equally?

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry for the confusion. Hope this helps.

My question was/is based on the following from post #20:

Paul when he states qualifications for thepastor/elder always states that men are to be such, and their wives as such and such, never women can hold those offices,and the husbands are to be such and such!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Paul when he states qualifications for thepastor/elder always states that men are to be such, and their wives as such and such, never women can hold those offices,and the husbands are to be such and such!

Thanks for your reply. From my understanding of scripture, you and I agree. I was trying to address the following statement form post #20:

Yes, men and women under the same standard.

In order for "Baptist Believer" to take his position on men and women being equally qualified to hold the offices of Elder and/or Deacon, he would, it seems to me, to interchange the masculine and feminine nouns in the following and similar verses. Reference my post #51.

1Ti 3:2 KJV - A bishop (G1985 - masculine noun) then must be blameless, the husband (G435 - masculine noun) of one wife (G1135 - feminine noun), vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:11 KJV - Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

1Ti 3:12 KJV - Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for your reply. From my understanding of scripture, you and I agree. I was trying to address the following statement form post #20:
In order for "Baptist Believer" to take his position on men and women being equally qualified to hold the offices of Elder and/or Deacon, he would, it seems to me, to interchange the masculine and feminine nouns in the following and similar verses. Reference my post #51.

Yes, Paul would have reversed the listing!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Thanks for your reply. From my understanding of scripture, you and I agree. I was trying to address the following statement form post #20: ["Yes, men and women under the same standard."]
In order for "Baptist Believer" to take his position on men and women being equally qualified to hold the offices of Elder and/or Deacon, he would, it seems to me, to interchange the masculine and feminine nouns in the following and similar verses. Reference my post #51.

Please note that you have ripped that statement out of context. Reformed and I were having a discussion where we had found some common ground, namely that women can be teachers of men in the New Testament church. He properly cited Acts 18, where Priscilla/Prisca is instructing Apollos in the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:26). Reformed had also noted that any teaching in the church is under the care and oversight of "the pastor or elders." I responded, "Yes, men and women under the same standard."

I don't know how you got that mixed up.

I have made no case in this discussion for a woman to be an "elder" (whatever you assume that to mean) and have simply noted that Phoebe was a deacon in the church and was highly respected by Paul (Romans 16:1). This verse may also indicate that she was Paul's representative to the churches in Rome, bearing the letter and possibly reading it to those congregations with the proper inflection and emphasis, answering questions the congregation may have had.

Since Phoebe was a deacon in the church, that informs our interpretation of Paul's character qualifications for deacons.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please note that you have ripped that statement out of context. Reformed and I were having a discussion where we had found some common ground, namely that women can be teachers of men in the New Testament church. He properly cited Acts 18, where Priscilla/Prisca is instructing Apollos in the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:26). Reformed had also noted that any teaching in the church is under the care and oversight of "the pastor or elders." I responded, "Yes, men and women under the same standard."

I don't know how you got that mixed up.

I have made no case in this discussion for a woman to be an "elder" (whatever you assume that to mean) and have simply noted that Phoebe was a deacon in the church and was highly respected by Paul (Romans 16:1). This verse may also indicate that she was Paul's representative to the churches in Rome, bearing the letter and possibly reading it to those congregations with the proper inflection and emphasis, answering questions the congregation may have had.

Since Phoebe was a deacon in the church, that informs our interpretation of Paul's character qualifications for deacons.

Just as long as there are NO women as pastors/elders!

 

[terrpn]

You probably already know these verses and interpret them another way, but I just want to point out the biblical basis for the statement you referenced above for others to consider:

A woman serving as an apostle:
Romans 16:7
"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

Women preaching:
Acts 1:13-14; 2:1-18
1:13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. 5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.”

14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. 15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.

Acts 21:8-9
8 On the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses.

1 Corinthians 11:4-5
4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head...

A woman serving as a deacon:
Romans 16:1
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant (Greek - diakonon, "deacon") of the church which is at Cenchrea...'

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Most of the new bibles change servant to deaconess because the Greek word is diakanon. Roman Catholic Bibles have her as a female deaconess because they have nuns. Catholics believe in ordaining women for church service.

Couple things wrong with making Phebe a deaconess? Diakanon is a neutral word and not feminine. The word couldn’t be deaconess; it would have to be servant. Additionally diakanon in any form is not always translated deacon. In Rom. 15:8, minister in that verse is the same word diakanon. You couldn’t possibly translate it deacon there because it is talking about Jesus Christ and he was not a deacon. There are other instances as well………

Your proof text falls short. Junia was among the apostles and not an apostle. Your scripture support for women teaching men, preaching falls short as those verses were all written before Paul penned 1 Tim. 3, etc.. We follow Pauline Epistle, however if you do not agree there is no need to go any further.

In Rom. 16:7….. Andronicus and Junia were kinsman, fellowprisoners of note AMONG the apostles and in Christ before Paul. There is not one word in that verse that implies that these 2 women were somehow qualified to be an apostle.

I know charismatic churches try to make scripture say what it does not- no ordained offices in the NT are female. ALL ORDAINED OFFICES ARE MASCULINE, MALE, MEN. The elders are male, the bishops are male, the deacons are male and those are the only 4 ordained offices in the NT.

Husband of one wife (a woman could not meet that requirement unless you are lesbian I guess). There is no disputing Phebe was involved in church work, but she was a servant of the church and not a deacon.

NT rule, Pauline Epistle……….dictates that a woman is not to teach, nor usurp AUTHORITY over the man/1 Tim. 2:12, period.

Adam was first formed than Eve. Adam was not deceived, Eve was. God went to Adam first about disobedience, he called Adam and not Eve. Additionally God condemned Adam for hearkening to the voice of his wife before getting to what he ate. In Gen. 3:16 God told Eve that her desire would be to her husband and he shall rule over thee.

The woman is not inferior to the man, they both have separate roles and Adam was not complete until God gave him a wife. However the role reversal we have today with woman ruling over the man, men submitting to their wives is unbiblical where it is now being justified in some churches. Women were made to be more emotional than men, thus no coincidence the touchy-feely denominations are now allowing women to fill Biblical offices ordained for a man.

 

[Yeshua1]

You have the best post ever made on this subject!