The Role of Women in the Family and Church

[Steven Yeadon]

It occurs to me, that a big part of the brewing war between conservatives and moderates in churches is due to how women are viewed. Women and men are spiritual equals both blessed with eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. However, men and women are to serve different gender roles in the family and the church.

As a Moderate Baptist a few years ago before I became a Christian, I argued that a few bible verses didn't matter, our modern notions did. I am now struck by how a number of the churches affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention have embraced women as teachers, preachers, deacons, and ministry leaders. Although, women can serve in the church, what deacons originally were in the New Testament. When I say deacon, I mean church elder under the senior pastor, as it is in many churches.

This flies in the face of clear scripture, which uses the Creation as its reason for gender roles.

1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer.

What do you all think? I didn't put this in the Fundamental Baptist forum, so I know there will be debate about what I said.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The whole issue of women in the Church, is becoming more and more unbiblical. Too many churches have more or less abandoned what the Bible clearly says of the role of women, as in the passage that you quote from 1 Timothy.

Romans 16:1, is clear that women can be Deaconess' in the Church, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae", where the word "servant", is in the Greek, "διακονον", which is feminine.

It must never be forgotton, that only the man is created in the "glory" of God, and not the woman: " For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man" (1 Corinthians 11:7). Becuase man, and not woman, is "the head", and man was created first, and then the woman, as a "helper", for the man, which is a subordinate role, which is what 1 Corinthians 14:34 says, "let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law." It is possible, that the word "speak" here, λαλέω, can be understood as "preaching", as it is so used in Acts 10:44, "While Peter yet spake (λαλέω) these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word".

 

[SavedByGrace]

 

[tyndale1946]

Every now and then I will come on here and tell a true story, that has been handled down, though out my church life of 50 years... In the Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist Church I grew up in, a woman preacher was unheard of... None ever graced our pulpit or any of the sister churches we were in fellowship with... A friend of mine Joe Holder who is also a preacher, invited a friend of his a preacher Elder Sonny Pyles, from Texas, to fill an appointment at his church Little Zion in California, which he did.

At the conclusion of Elder Sonny Pyles sermon, a song was sung and the right hand of fellowship offered, prayer followed an everyone was milling around, welcoming friends and the visitors that came... To all those that knew of him he preferred to be called Brother Sonny and talking with, his friend Brother Joe that invited him and was in conversation with other preachers that had come to hear him... A woman interrupted the conversation and said: Brother Sonny, I believe the Lord has called me to preach?... I'm sure many preachers would have whipped out their Bibles and showed her in the Bible, that preachers are men only, quoting 1 Timothy 3... He could probably quoted the whole thing as he had a photographic memory and in over his many years preaching, knew his Bible, but he didn't.

Around the same time the conversation was going on the children as all children are inclined to do, had made new friends and as they were getting reacquainted, carrying on and chasing each other around the church and having a great time... Brother Sonny, in the mean time was pondering what she said and putting his hand cupped to this chin and nodding his head up and down said... Hummm!... You don't say?... I add here after hearing the man all my life he had a quick wit also and what he was about to say was a doozy... Sister he said, putting his hand gently on her shoulder and turning her to where the children were raising a ruckus... Looking her straight in the face, then turning away, while pointing at the children said... Well Sister!... There is your congregation!... Exasperated!.. She then turned and walked away... Brother Glen

Btw... This was back in the day when Women preachers were unheard of and I suppose if a preacher did this today, the woman in question might have walked out... And filed a lawsuit!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Every now and then I will come on here and tell a true story, that has been handled down, though out my church life of 50 years... In the Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist Church I grew up in, a woman preacher was unheard of... None ever graced our pulpit or any of the sister churches we were in fellowship with... A friend of mine Joe Holder who is also a preacher, invited a friend of his a preacher Elder Sonny Pyles, from Texas, to fill an appointment at his church Little Zion in California, which he did.

At the conclusion of Elder Sonny Pyles sermon, a song was sung and the right hand of fellowship offered, prayer followed an everyone was milling around, welcoming friends and the visitors that came... To all those that knew of him he preferred to be called Brother Sonny and talking with, his friend Brother Joe that invited him and was in conversation with other preachers that had come to hear him... A woman interrupted the conversation and said: Brother Sonny, I believe the Lord has called me to preach?... I'm sure many preachers would have whipped out their Bibles and showed her in the Bible, that preachers are men only, quoting 2 Timothy 3... He could probably quoted the whole thing as he had a photographic memory and in over his many years preaching, knew his Bible, but he didn't.

Around the same time the conversation was going on the children as all children are inclined to do, had made new friends and as they were getting reacquainted, carrying on and chasing each other around the church and having a great time... Brother Sonny, in the mean time was pondering what she said and putting his hand cupped to this chin and nodding his head up and down said... Hummm!... You don't say?... I add here after hearing the man all my life he had a quick wit also and what he was about to say was a doozy... Sister he said, putting his hand gently on her shoulder and turning her to where the children were raising a ruckus... Looking her straight in the face, then turning away, while pointing at the children said... Well Sister!... There is your congregation!... Exasperated!.. She then turned and walked away... Brother Glen

Btw... This was back in the day when Women preachers were unheard of and I suppose if a preacher did this today, the woman in question might have walked out... And filed a lawsuit!

Wow, the pastor handled it poorly, though Brother Glen. That woman had a serious question she wanted answered. If given the Word, she may have realized that her feelings were a bit off and walked off knowing her feeling was not equal to scripture.

I have experiences too. A problem I have is that for years as a Moderate Baptist I heard many women's stories about how they were called to be pastors. Now those stories could be super powerful, but that doesn't make a single one of them right to feel called to the Office.

I was just talking about this with my pastor yesterday. In moderate Baptist circles the gist of things about the role of women is that a few verses in 1 Timothy 2 do not have the authority to counter our Modern sensibilities. I have found it so freeing to start reading the bible without filtering what the words on the page say through a preconceived philosophical or theological lens.

 

[Reynolds]

Wow, the pastor handled it poorly, though Brother Glen. That woman had a serious question she wanted answered. If given the Word, she may have realized that her feelings were a bit off and walked off knowing her feeling was not equal to scripture.

I have experiences too. A problem I have is that for years as a Moderate Baptist I heard many women's stories about how they were called to be pastors. Now those stories could be super powerful, but that doesn't make a single one of them right to feel called to the Office.

I was just talking about this with my pastor yesterday. In moderate Baptist circles the gist of things about the role of women is that a few verses in 1 Timothy 2 do not have the authority to counter our Modern sensibilities. I have found it so freeing to start reading the bible without filtering what the words on the page say through a preconceived philosophical or theological lens.

Women preach to women and kids. Women don't preach to men. Women do not teach men.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Women preach to women and kids. Women don't preach to men. Women do not teach men.

I agree 100%.

 

[Dave G]

@Steven Yeadon

In the short time that I've been on this forum, I've seen several threads about this subject.
My replies have always been basically this:

1) God's word states, in no uncertain terms, who He holds responsible as head of the family...
The man.

2) God's word states, in no uncertain terms, what the role of precious sisters actually is...
To raise the family and to minister their gifts to the church within the bounds of her being a woman.


For example, I see Scripture plainly declaring that women cannot hold the offices of preacher, teacher, elder ( pastor / bishop / deacon ), because that is not who the Holy Ghost makes overseers within the local body of believers.
However, woman are not relegated to "secondary roles"...
They have theirs, and men have theirs.

Each according as God has blessed the body.

As for the the "brewing war" between "conservatives and moderates"?
To me, it's very obviously a war between professing Christians who want to obey the Lord in everything, and those who do not.

I hold that every word matters...
But there are many that I run into ( and even some on this forum ), who do not share my convictions.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

@Steven Yeadon

In the short time that I've been on this forum, I've seen several threads about this subject.
My replies have always been basically this:

1) God's word states, in no uncertain terms, who He holds responsible as head of the family...
The man.

2) God's word states, in no uncertain terms, what the role of precious sisters actually is...
To raise the family and to minister their gifts to the church within the bounds of her being a woman.


For example, I see Scripture plainly declaring that women cannot hold the offices of preacher, teacher, elder ( pastor / bishop / deacon ), because that is not who the Holy Ghost makes overseers within the local body of believers.
However, woman are not relegated to "secondary roles"...
They have theirs, and men have theirs.

Each according as God has blessed the body.

As for the the "brewing war" between "conservatives and moderates"?
To me, it's very obviously a war between professing Christians who want to obey the Lord in everything, and those who do not.

I hold that every word matters...
But there are many that I run into ( and even some on this forum ), who do not share my convictions.

Thank you, very well put.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I've been here for 18 years. There is a constant - "women aren't supposed to do this" and "women shouldn't do, wear, say, be, know, have that".

I've asked this question five or six times in my almost two decades here......why is there NEVER a thread made about what men are supposed to be doing in the church and in the home and their NOT doing it.

We could have a long discussion on that, but never will. It's always about what women are doing wrong. AD NAUSEM.

Do you all not see that? Are men EVER wrong? Are men EVER at fault in the church and the home? If so, why is it NEVER discussed here.

There used to be quite a few women here: highly intelligent, highly devoted to God, highly knowledgeable in the Bible.

There's none left but me. And I just came back from a long break. As much as I am not for Kamala Harris, I got sick of her being referred to as a whore.

I think I just don't belong here anymore. Not even our moderator, Annsni is seen anymore. And she's one smart cookie.

Maybe the BaptistBoard is just the men's club and I have been blind to that too long.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I've been here for 18 years. There is a constant - "women aren't supposed to do this" and "women shouldn't do, wear, say, be, know, have that".

I've asked this question five or six times in my almost two decades here......why is there NEVER a thread made about what men are supposed to be doing in the church and in the home and their NOT doing it.

We could have a long discussion on that, but never will. It's always about what women are doing wrong. AD NAUSEM.

Do you all not see that? Are men EVER wrong? Are men EVER at fault in the church and the home? If so, why is it NEVER discussed here.

There used to be quite a few women here: highly intelligent, highly devoted to God, highly knowledgeable in the Bible.

There's none left but me. And I just came back from a long break. As much as I am not for Kamala Harris, I got sick of her being referred to as a whore.

I think I just don't belong here anymore. Not even our moderator, Annsni is seen anymore. And she's one smart cookie.

Maybe the BaptistBoard is just the men's club and I have been blind to that too long.

SO, you are right that men need correction. There is absolutely no doubt about that. What is not in order is women trying to do that correction. That may be frustrating, especially for smart women, but it is not unique to them.

What your worldview seems to ignore is that men also have a chain of command and ways that things must be handled. Bosses at work, other men in the church, etc., etc., etc. We all find this frustrating at times, sometimes extremely frustrating.

That said, wise men will want to know what the wise women are thinking. It’s not illegal to ask. When asked, a wise woman will not tend toward usurping authority through the answer.

 

[Scarlett O.]

SO, you are right that men need correction. There is absolutely no doubt about that. What is not in order is women trying to do that correction. That may be frustrating, especially for smart women, but it is not unique to them.

What your worldview seems to ignore is that men also have a chain of command and ways that things must be handled. Bosses at work, other men in the church, etc., etc., etc. We all find this frustrating at times, sometimes extremely frustrating.

That said, wise men will want to know what the wise women are thinking. It’s not illegal to ask. When asked, a wise woman will not tend toward usurping authority through the answer.

You missed my point ENTIRELY. 100%.

 

[Dave G]

I've asked this question five or six times in my almost two decades here......why is there NEVER a thread made about what men are supposed to be doing in the church and in the home and their NOT doing it.

IMO, there should be.
But can it be done carefully, responsibly and with an eye towards respecting all that the Lord has set forth in His word?

We could have a long discussion on that, but never will. It's always about what women are doing wrong. AD NAUSEM.

Do you all not see that? Are men EVER wrong? Are men EVER at fault in the church and the home? If so, why is it NEVER discussed here.

See my above.
Yes men are often wrong, at fault, etc.

Do you think that this is the right place to discuss it?

If so, can it be done graciously and Biblically...
despite the frustration from women who see that nothing is apparently changing?

There used to be quite a few women here: highly intelligent, highly devoted to God, highly knowledgeable in the Bible.

For a woman to be highly knowledgeable in the Bible I think is very commendable...
Teaching and preaching within the assembly, pastoring, etc. the Lord still holds men responsible, not women ( 1 Timothy 3 and many other places ).

 

[Dave G]

As for conduct:

If half the men I know of that profess Christ took His words about their roles within the church and within their families seriously,
I don't think that threads like this would even pop up.
In addition, how many women do I know of who profess Christ, are headstrong and absolutely will.not.ever. do as the Lord commands?

At this point, I will refrain from making my specific views known about this in public...
Because to me, it's simply not profitable, respectful and ( most importantly ) neither is it edifying, to engage in this sort of "bashing".

I admit that both men and women are at fault in their respective areas;
There are problems on both sides and have been for a very long time.
But even more so, this subject, unless dealt with very carefully, can and often does result in deeply hurt feelings;
and this is why it should be done graciously and with patience.

Presenting this from a man's point of view, I will say this:

I value a Proverbs 31 woman ( who is not perfectly obedient to the Lord but desperately wants to be ) who exhibits the qualities found in Ephesians 5:22-33, 1 Timothy 2:9-15 and many other places.
Granted, we all have an untrustworthy flesh that tempts us to all kinds of things.
But both women and men in the body of Christ are to strive for godliness...

Not against it.

You missed my point ENTIRELY. 100%.

But I did not.
In fact, I sympathize with your apparent feelings...

Now, are you serious about how the Lord wants women to conduct themselves?
I do hope so, because in my estimation,
that would make you one of very few that I know of who profess Christ that is determined to follow the Lord in everything.

I already see the mess from the man's point of view,
and I can say with all honesty that it is a very big problem and one in which I, myself, am determined to follow Him no matter what.

I cannot speak for other men, but that's me speaking for myself.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I've been here for 18 years. There is a constant - "women aren't supposed to do this" and "women shouldn't do, wear, say, be, know, have that".

I've asked this question five or six times in my almost two decades here......why is there NEVER a thread made about what men are supposed to be doing in the church and in the home and their NOT doing it.

We could have a long discussion on that, but never will. It's always about what women are doing wrong. AD NAUSEM.

Do you all not see that? Are men EVER wrong? Are men EVER at fault in the church and the home? If so, why is it NEVER discussed here.

There used to be quite a few women here: highly intelligent, highly devoted to God, highly knowledgeable in the Bible.

There's none left but me. And I just came back from a long break. As much as I am not for Kamala Harris, I got sick of her being referred to as a whore.

I think I just don't belong here anymore. Not even our moderator, Annsni is seen anymore. And she's one smart cookie.

Maybe the BaptistBoard is just the men's club and I have been blind to that too long.

You raise a very troubling point. I am single, so I do not understand the role of men in relation to say loving their wives as Christ loves the church. That command is of great importance to any husband. I wonder how many fail at it.

In the church I do see too few men step up to lead. It is a real problem. That problem may be the reason women feel they need to lead, even though the logic is a bit off, since husbands need to be rebuked into leading instead of women trying to assert leadership.

I do wonder where the women have gone. I myself was called part of the "he man woman hater" club. I am very stalwart on embracing what the bible says no matter what the modern world will ever tell us. That said, I do not hate women and in fact I want to see more women around here. I encourage you to keep posting Scarlett O. It is refreshing.

I hope to continue this conversation.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

You missed my point ENTIRELY. 100%.

Well, I haven’t been on the board long, and don’t generally participate much in certain types of threads, so I certainly wouldn’t have the same perspective as you. You hit on a lot of things, some church related, some not. Admittedly, I didn’t try to address all of that, and no doubt missed the point you really wanted to stress.

But I will hit one point here as a problematic example. The thing about Kamala. If you feel no one has said anything similar about any men in politics here, you just haven’t bothered to notice. And there have been plenty of related comments about men in other fields as well. Am I wrong about that?

 

[Yeshua1]

It occurs to me, that a big part of the brewing war between conservatives and moderates in churches is due to how women are viewed. Women and men are spiritual equals both blessed with eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. However, men and women are to serve different gender roles in the family and the church.

As a Moderate Baptist a few years ago before I became a Christian, I argued that a few bible verses didn't matter, our modern notions did. I am now struck by how a number of the churches affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention have embraced women as teachers, preachers, deacons, and ministry leaders. Although, women can serve in the church, what deacons originally were in the New Testament. When I say deacon, I mean church elder under the senior pastor, as it is in many churches.

This flies in the face of clear scripture, which uses the Creation as its reason for gender roles.

1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer.

What do you all think? I didn't put this in the Fundamental Baptist forum, so I know there will be debate about what I said.

Must avoid both extremes, one being a woman can basically do nothing within the assembly of the Church but be a babysitter, while other is that they can be the senior pastor!

 

[Scarlett O.]

The thing about Kamala. If you feel no one has said anything similar about any men in politics here, you just haven’t bothered to notice. And there have been plenty of related comments about men in other fields as well. Am I wrong about that?

I didn't say no one said anything about men in politics. I said I had just come back from a break from BB after not being able to handle Kamala being characterized as "sleeping her way to the top" after having an affair. The implication being she was sexually immoral and that negated her being qualified for office of any kind.

I don't like name-calling of any kind, but I felt that was going to be a running gag here, so I took a break.

 

[Yeshua1]

The whole issue of women in the Church, is becoming more and more unbiblical. Too many churches have more or less abandoned what the Bible clearly says of the role of women, as in the passage that you quote from 1 Timothy.

Romans 16:1, is clear that women can be Deaconess' in the Church, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae", where the word "servant", is in the Greek, "διακονον", which is feminine.

It must never be forgotton, that only the man is created in the "glory" of God, and not the woman: " For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man" (1 Corinthians 11:7). Becuase man, and not woman, is "the head", and man was created first, and then the woman, as a "helper", for the man, which is a subordinate role, which is what 1 Corinthians 14:34 says, "let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law." It is possible, that the word "speak" here, λαλέω, can be understood as "preaching", as it is so used in Acts 10:44, "While Peter yet spake (λαλέω) these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word".

men and Women are both fully equals in the sight of God, but have different roles and responsibilities!

 

[Yeshua1]

I didn't say no one said anything about men in politics. I said I had just come back from a break from BB after not being able to handle Kamala being characterized as "sleeping her way to the top" after having an affair. The implication being she was sexually immoral and that negated her being qualified for office of any kind.

I don't like name-calling of any kind, but I felt that was going to be a running gag here, so I took a break.

Kamala is just another liberal who does not believe in Jesus is Lord!