No, but you must show me at least one time that there is an actual command, a specific command, for the Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath Day. Can you do that?
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The Sabbath was not Changed
- Thread starter BobRyan
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No, but you must show me at least one time that there is an actual command, a specific command, for the Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath Day. Can you do that?
You are too vague Gerhard.
Give me a specific command that tells me that Gentile believers must keep the Sabbath. If you cannot do so, I will consider this debate closed, for you have nothing to stand on.
I'll say it yet again -- it is good for me to, because it teaches me patience -- It is the legalist who insists on Law. Who depends on Law. Who as if himself the Lawgiver, DEMANDS,Law!
But DHK, here, I gave you myself what you demanded of me --- here on your own BaptistBoard, a few posts back, #68 http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2013281&posted=1#post2013281
and here, in answer to yourself, DHK;2010525, http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2010735&posted=1#post2010735
Much better, Colossians 2:16
... and best of all, Matthew 28:1 ... because Jesus by precedent.
Law doesn't come to the BELIEVER IN CHRIST on tables of stone; Law comes to the believer AS CHRIST JESUS and Christ Jesus comes to the believer as LAW.
I have always tried it to be my answer. I do not need nor want another answer or command. "God gave Christ to the Church as Head The ALL in all fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD ... WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD".
Hence the gift from this God in Christ to the Church of his Sabbath-Day's-Rest.
DHK, have you seen GE ask for more or offer more for REASON of or for the Faith that in him is?
No, you have not!
For me Christ suffices as WORD of God The LAW of God which "GOD [not any 'law'] THUS ... in these last days ... by the Son ... concerning the Seventh Day spoke", "...AND IT WAS!"
"...AND IT WAS..." "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD"!
"Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" and not your -- DHK's -- non-existent and FALSE supposed <Sabbath given to the Jews>!
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I find no command in any answers here or in the links given where there is a clear command to keep the sabbath.
You have failed again. You cannot produce a clear command for gentile believers to keep the Sabbath can you?
No, it's you who cannot,
One, READ plain words as "Jesus gave them Rest ---Therefore REMAINS obligatory for the People of God [Jews and Gentiles alike] keeping of the Sabbath Day";
and,
Two, cannot PERCEIVE by faith the 'Gentile' Israel of God who do NOT ask for or demand God as were He the obligated to supply <clear command to keep the sabbath>.
So it must be GOD who has <failed again>.
It's alright with me whatever you think or accuse me of. You're right again; I failed again. When I am weak, I am strong. I think Paul said it. He conquered with that saying.
DHK, you have no issue with me; I'm not worth it. Settle the issue with yourself because you have an issue with yourself only.
There is no command to keep the Sabbath. It is a command given to the Jew and not the Gentile. Please study Exodus 31.
If you truly believed in the Sabbath, today is Saturday. You wouldn't be at your computer, your keyboard typing these messages. It is a form of writing.
Were the scribes allowed to write on the Sabbath?
I don't believe they were. They were transgressing the Sabbath law.
You are so right. I cannot nor can you. There is no command anywhere for Gentile Christians to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath was given to the Jews. Check Ex.31.
You are reading into Scripture that which isn't there.
Jesus is my Sabbath. I have entered into his rest. He is my rest. I rest in Him every day. That does not involve keeping any one day as a Sabbath. It involves resting in him each and every day.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
--This he has already done.
I am sorry that you feel that God has failed you.
In the NT God is calling out a nation unto himself. We are no longer Gentiles or Jews but one in Christ. There is no Israel, and thus no Sabbath. The Sabbath is not for the believers in Christ. It is for the nation of Israel.
I haven't accused you of anything.
I challenged you to find a clear-cut command where it clearly commands Gentile believers to keep the Sabbath.
You cannot do that and have not done that. It is impossible for there is none.
I am "settled" in Christ. He is my rest--every day, not just one day of the week.
Yours is the language, the logic and the enthusiasm of the legalists'. I cannot do anything about or against it. So be it for you DHK.
But back to reality... "the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD, the day The Seventh Day" is not 'Saturday'. Clearly, logically, factually, practically NOT! If you cannot see the difference how can anyone have conversation with you?
MUCH MORE IMPORTANT ... "the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD, the day The Seventh Day" is not the <Jews'> or the <scribes'>. Clearly, logically, factually, practically NOT!
If you cannot see the difference how will you EVER KNOW WHICH IS "The Lord Jesus' Day"? --- the day in which He obtained Lordship by having "TRIUMPHED in it" over death and grave, and it - "The Lord's Day" - received honour, worthiness and virtue it before Christ ON IT ROSE from the dead, did not have?
DHK, I for no moment believe you are blind to these things ---to these TRUTHS!
What have you planned to avail with your nonsensical non-arguments? To create a case for Sunday sacredness?
Then can I for a change like a real legalist ask of you, Where is the command - to the Gentiles or to the Jews, ce'st rien de difference - to keep the First Day of the week?
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Jesus rose again on the first day of the week. In Acts 20:7 the believers met with Paul on the first day of the week.
However, that seems to be irrelevant seeing that the early church met every day of the week, and that no day was above another and every day was esteemed alike.
Some of the Christians living a couple centuries ago referred to Sunday as "the Christian Sabbath," but that was a needless appellation. There is no command in the Bible to worship on any one certain day of the week. The worship on Sunday is simply by tradition, and for no other reason. There is no command to worship on the first day of the week.
maybe; maybe no doubt.
Yet, "The Sabbath is valid for the PEOPLE OF GOD" in the New Testament; as it used to be for the PEOPLE of Israel of old. The Sabbath was never a matter of individual rest or trust of one believer.
You very well know it.
Christ is "the REST ['katapausis'] of GOD" and so also our Rest.
Christ is not "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD" as He is not "the People of God's keeping of the Sabbath Day" 'sabbatismos tohi laohi tou theou']. And so "Christ is the Substance of [our the Church's] Sabbaths' Feast".
You very well know it yourself.
WHY do you keep on insisting it means nothing that "Sabbaths' observance remains for the People of God"? Just because it does not have the FORM of a direct or formal command?
You very well know what a 'clear command' can look like!
But you PRETEND you don't see one when you see one.
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God never has failed me; it is your sort of 'reasoning' that presupposes God failed.
If because there is no Israel there is no Sabbath, then there still is a Sabbath as there still is an Israel.
And since "the Seventh Day is the Sabbath : OF THE LORD GOD" it requires there must be no LORD GOD before there will be no Seventh Day Sabbath left.
But you have no scruples to directly CONTRADICT God's Word that "Sabbath's observance REMAINS for the People of God", saying, <<The Sabbath is not for the believers in Christ.>>
That says it all. Who can still argue with you, DHK?!
Feel you are the victor! Go, happy with yourself! Keep sacred your Sundays for which you have not as many as one UNADULTERATED Scripture from Old or New Testaments!
Understand this.
When Paul was unsaved he was a Pharisee of the pharisees. He was a rabbi, a member of the Sanhedrin.
When he got saved, he was no longer a Jew; only by nationality was he a Jew, not by religion. He became a believer in Christ. To him the Jewish religion was dead. He forsook it and became a Christian.
Christianity did not replace Israel. Paul still prayed for the nation of Israel, that they would be saved. It was his heart's desire that his brethren (in the flesh) would come to the Lord. Israel still existed as a nation. Christianity did not replace Israel.
At that time, as now, there was Israel, the church, and the Gentiles. The church does not replace Israel. Israel still worships on their sabbath, and always will. It is their sabbath.
There is no "Sabbath Day" for the Christian. Christ himself is our Sabbath. He is our rest. The early church met every day of the week. As each church decides they may meet on any day they find convenient. There is no NT law governing which day they must worship. In the OT there was. They had to meet on the Sabbath. This is not so in the NT. There is no such law.
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
If Jesus rose from the dead on the First Day of the week, that—to me—would be the Command and Commandment of God to ‘keep the First Day of the week’ holy, as any human could. Jesus’ act to rise on the First Day of the week would to me have been God’s Law and God’s Word that the First Day of the week is God’s holy Sabbath Day.
But now it is not so.
But now it is true “OF THE SABBATH”.
Now in fact it is THE TRUTH: “OF THE SABBATH" ---that "IN SABBATH’S FULLNESS in the mid-afternoon inclining daylight towards the First Day of the week … behold, there was great earthquake and the angel of the Lord from heaven descending cast the stone away from the grave and sat on it” ---while inside “God raised Christ from the dead … by the glory of the Father.” “O, That I may know HIM AND THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION…”, “SABBATH'S”!
In Acts 20:7 “the First Day of the week” is NOT the worship day. The Perfect Participle ‘sunehgmenohn humohn’ DICTATES “The disciples having been assembling together BEFORE for to Eat the Lord’s Supper, on the First Day of the week having been assembling together STILL, Paul discussed matters with them …”
The Lord's Supper on the Sabbath "BEFORE having been assembling for", is presupposed.
The Lord's Supper on the Sabbath "BEFORE having been assembling for", is presupposed.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Romans 8 Paul tells us that the lost person cannot keep the Law of God - but the saved person can.
You have stated the problem for the lost very well.
Your view of their condition is perfect.
Now - what about the saved person who has the Law of God written on the heart?
For him Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".
For him Paul says "do we then abolish the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.
John says it this way -
John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
No text in all of scripture says "The curse of the Law - is the curse of keeping the Sabbath" - so you make it up.
Instructive.
You might as well say "The curse of the Law is Loving God with all your heart - Deut 6:5".
Not one single text says such things. And I think we both know it by now.
In Isaiah 56 it is NON-Jews that are blessed for keeping the Sabbath.
In Gen 2:3 Adam's first full day of life - is the SABBATH.
In Mark 2:27 "the SABBATH as MADE for MANKIND".
in Christ,
Bob
In Romans 8 Paul tells us that the lost person cannot keep the Law of God - but the saved person can.
You have stated the problem for the lost very well.
Your view of their condition is perfect.
Now - what about the saved person who has the Law of God written on the heart?
For him Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".
For him Paul says "do we then abolish the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.
John says it this way -
John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
DHK said:
No text in all of scripture says "The curse of the Law - is the curse of keeping the Sabbath" - so you make it up.
Instructive.
You might as well say "The curse of the Law is Loving God with all your heart - Deut 6:5".
Not one single text says such things. And I think we both know it by now.
Not true. In Isaiah 66:23 it is "ALL MANKIND" that is to keep the Sabbath.
In Isaiah 56 it is NON-Jews that are blessed for keeping the Sabbath.
In Gen 2:3 Adam's first full day of life - is the SABBATH.
In Mark 2:27 "the SABBATH as MADE for MANKIND".
Read the texts above and you will see why even Baptist documents affirm this point.
in Christ,
Bob
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